practical .380 use?

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David E said:
It appears we have different ideas of what "small, lightweight and thin" mean.

The Kimber Compact is merely the gun I'm carrying now, I wasn't really trying to compare it directly to the 84, altho it looks to compare quite favorably. The gun I would compare directly is the Kahr P-9. That gun is significantly lighter, shorter both in length and height and is thinner. And while it holds fewer rounds, each round has more than twice the energy of the .380. The Springfield EMP also compares quite favorably to the 84.


Yes I tend to agree the 84 and it's various versions are a bit large for a .380 and it is once again a wood and metal pistol, so yeah I'll concede the point on that one.

However the 84 isn't a very common or popular .380 and I'd say you have explained why.

However the Kimber and the EMP and even to an extent the Kahr are positively huge compared to many of the small 9 & .380s now available. While they may compare favorably to an outdated design like the 84 they are nowhere near as small and concealable as many modern CCW pistols.

Weevil, I appreciate your civility in this discussion!

No problem, I enjoy discussing guns and I certainly don't think I have all the answers or know everything so it's good to hear the point of view of others who are actually thinking about the matters at hand and not just making knee-jerk reactions or spewing cliche's. ;)
 
However the Kimber and the EMP and even to an extent the Kahr are positively huge compared to many of the small 9 & .380s now available. While they may compare favorably to an outdated design like the 84 they are nowhere near as small and concealable as many modern CCW pistols.

Now I'm curious what you categorize as a "modern CCW pistol." The P-9 is an utter delight to carry IWB.

I wasn't trying to compare any of them to a POCKET .380, only to the Beretta 84. One of my points is that a "modern .380" should be a pocket gun, not a belt gun. If you're going to carry a .380 on the belt, then you could just as easily carry a 9mm or .40 instead.

The Kahr PM-9 does compare favorably to a pocket .380, but I personally want a bit "more" in a primary defense gun.
 
Now I'm curious what you categorize as a "modern CCW pistol." The P-9 is an utter delight to carry IWB.

I wasn't trying to compare any of them to a POCKET .380, only to the Beretta 84. One of my points is that a "modern .380" should be a pocket gun, not a belt gun. If you're going to carry a .380 on the belt, then you could just as easily carry a 9mm or .40 instead.

LOL ..... No thanks. I'll take the tried and true 84 over the not always reliable P-9, PM9, or Keltec this or Taurus that.

You just see how much info you can find on unreliable 84's or BDA's......Good luck.....These pistols are bet your life reliable and have been for years. They go bang everytime, not just most of the time.

I'll take 14 rounds of absolutely reliable .380 over 7 rounds of somewhat reliable 9mm, because it's what you prefer and think is best for everyone.

I have no intentions of retiring the faithful 84 because you believe a more modern 7 shot 9mm with a not so perfect track record is a better CCW.
 
David E said:
Now I'm curious what you categorize as a "modern CCW pistol." The P-9 is an utter delight to carry IWB.

I wasn't trying to compare any of them to a POCKET .380, only to the Beretta 84. One of my points is that a "modern .380" should be a pocket gun, not a belt gun. If you're going to carry a .380 on the belt, then you could just as easily carry a 9mm or .40 instead.

The Kahr PM-9 does compare favorably to a pocket .380, but I personally want a bit "more" in a primary defense gun.


I was refering to the small .380 sized 9mm's like the Ket-Tecs or that new Taurus.

Very small and concealable but brutal to shoot.

I must say I'm not real up on the Kahrs as mentioned I've heard bad things about them too, especially the polymer models so I've shyed away from them.
 
hey weevil I know a good bit about firearms lol, I know I was at a buddy's house and it was deer season in georgia, he pulled out his 454 casull these two does in his backyard lined up perfectly and guess what, he shot the first doe broadside and BOTH HIT the ground right there dead both of them shot WITH ONE ROUND, broadside. DRT so yes even pistols can kill instantly on the first shot.
 
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I can't speak to the reliability of ALL Kahr's out there, only to the two that I own. They ARE 100% reliable. The P-9 holds 8, not 7. My other is a K-40.

My Kimber shown in the picture has been 100% as well. It's not difficult or uncomfortable at all to carry it in a BraveHeart IWB rig from www.kytac.com, but I guess some folks have different priorities on such matters.

I have no intentions of retiring the faithful 84 because you believe a more modern 7 shot 9mm with a not so perfect track record is a better CCW.

You must've missed my post where I said I don't care one whit about what you carry. I only care about what _I_ carry! Just don't expect thinking folks to accept your "my small and weak caliber is just as effective as your bigger one" garbage.

fastcast, I noticed two things:

1) you were not done discussing this topic, as you claimed. ;)

2) you totally ignored my range drills. I'm going to do them all! Which one are you going to do?
 
David E said:
I can't speak to the reliability of ALL Kahr's out there, only to the two that I own. They ARE 100% reliable. The P-9 holds 8, not 7. My other is a K-40.

My Kimber shown in the picture has been 100% as well. It's not difficult or uncomfortable at all to carry it in a BraveHeart IWB rig from www.kytac.com, but I guess some folks have different priorities on such matters.

Like I say I'm not to up on the Kahrs, no one I know owns one so I haven't been able to try one out. I've never even seen one for sale locally other than occasionally at the gunshows.

Basically all I've ever heard about them is internet rumors and we all know how accurate those are.

Maybe I'll keep a closer eye out for them in the future.


Aren't they owned by the Moonies or somehow associated with them???


I like Kimbers, I've got a full-size Gold Combat.


KIMBER1911A.jpg


It's one of my all-time favorite shooters and I occasionally use it for CCW during the winter months.
 
I, on occasion, carry an AMT Backup 380 in my front pocket. (no, lets not talk about the particular brand whether you like it or not, just the size and caliber). It is very easy to carry for certain scenarios. At 20 feet, I am extremely accurate with it. Doesn't require much aiming or anything. But a 380 out of that little thing is a monster. I can't even imagine how a 9mm would feel out of a gun that size. It would almost be unshootable

Now I know you mentioned that for a "pocket" gun, the 380 was fine, but if you were going to have a holster, then you should go up to the 9mm. There is a lot of logic to that. There are indeed 9mm pistols that mimic the size of 380's when it comes to the typical size used in a holster. Even the small ones. But it's still a matter of what a person feels most comfortable shooting. There's one person I know that ONLY shoots 45acp. He has a colt 1911A1 5", a short springer emp for carry, a sig p220, and a number of others. He thinks the 45acp is the BEST caliber against people and that's all there is to it. I don't even think he owns another pistol caliber. But I have to say, when it comes to the 45acp, I don't know anyone who is more proficient and knows more about a particular cartridge, than he is.

And there can definitely be others like that with the 380. Maybe they shot one, liked the feel of it, and that's the only caliber they shoot. They might have 2-3 different size pistols/capacities for different uses. And if that person really likes that caliber, and is really into it, then they are probably very proficient with it. As such, they are probably much better armed than the average person who shoots 2 times a year, and has a glock 17 with 15 rounds of 147 grain hollow points.

If a person thinks that another person is wrong in what they carry, because of the caliber or gun, then they are the one that is wrong. It doesn't matter if it's a 32, 380, 9mm mak, 9mm luger, 40sw, or 45acp. If the person is comfortable shooting their gun and caliber; and they practice and are proficient; then what more do you need. A 32acp can go up to 14 inches of penetration. Everyone says the FBI says you need a minimum of 12 inches. What's the problem. The 380 obviously can penetrate even more. If the person shooting is proficient enough to drop 3 round into the size of a baseball at 20-30 feet, and it's going to penetrate the minimum that the "Experts" suggest, then how can you say they are wrong.

I'll give some credit to those who criticize my opinion of the 32acp. Only because it's a slightly smaller diameter bullet. But the 380, 9mm, and 38 spl are all the same diameter bullet. And the energy in a bullet can't "Knock you down", so the only advantage of increased velocity and energy, is so it can expand the bullet; if it's a hollow point. And to be honest, the MAIN reason even for a hollow point, is to purposely SLOW down the bullet so it doesn't over penetrate. Yes, modern bullets also have the additional advantage of being able to create a virtual larger bullet diameter, and cause more damage, but that's a secondary purpose of the hollow point. If a person shoots a 380 in powerball, critical defense, or FMJ, and can penetrate 14-15 inches, how can you dog the caliber. That goes against all arguments for the caliber wars. Might as well just carry a 460. A 380, depending on the ammo, can penetrate anywhere from 10" to 17". So, what is so wrong with that???
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm

I know there are some people that strictly believe in carrying the largest caliber that you can handle. That's fine and dandy. And if a person could ONLY afford 1 gun, then there is no doubt that I would recommend that they get a 9mm (If they just had to have a semi-auto) or a 357 magnum (If they could handle a revolver). The 9mm, while not a very versatile caliber, with only a few sizes; mainly 115, 124, and 147. (Yes, there are a few other unique brands). But the 9mm is very common in use, that it's availability and price is very good. If a person could handle the revolver, then the 357 magnum is the BEST ALL TIME ALL AROUND pistol there is. Everything from the 380 up to the 45acp and into the 357 magnum full loads into the 41 magnum. There is a round for EVERYTHING.

But in the "Better" world, people can have MORE than 1 pistol. If you can own more than one pistol, then there's nothing wrong with having different pistols and different calibers to take care of different scenarios. My AMT Backup 380 or my Walther PPK 32acp, both have scenarios in which they are BETTER than my Sig P220 45acp, my EMT, my Beretta 9mm, or even my cz-82 9mm mak. Now there are definitely times when the 32 and 380 aren't the best choice. But to say that they are never a good choice is silly.

Then again, there's the pessimists who insist that you "Never Know" what might happen. So you need to be prepared for the worst. Sorry, but I'm not buying it. You don't even believe that. If you really did, you'd never leave home. And if you did, you'd always be carrying a 44magnum or a shotgun. Because pistols by their very nature are a compromise. So there's definitely no way a 32 or 380 can handle all situations. But they are definitely adequate for certain scenarios. And for the person who only has one gun, get a 9mm or a 357 magnum.
 
It looks like I'll be going to the range Friday (Saturday for sure)

Some folks may not be able to draw from concealment, no cover garment will be used.

Since no one offered up any other drill suggestions, I'll shoot a sheet of typing paper @ 5 yds with 5 or 6 shots, both from "high ready" (gun retracted against chest, not sighted in) or from "Low Ready," where arms are extended, pointing down at a 45 degree angle. From the holster, remember, hands start at sides. I will use a CED shot timer set on "random start" for all strings.

Remember, the "I-can-shoot-fairly-well" threshold time for this drill is 5 shots in under 2 seconds from high ready.

OR, 6 shots from the holster, hands at sides, in under 2 seconds for the "I-can-shoot-very-well" threshold.

If time permits, I'll set up the 3 target drill, also.

I plan on shooting the following guns:

1) 4" Compact Aluminum Stainless Kimber in .45 acp

2) Kahr P-9

3) Colt Mustang .380 (all steel) (from high ready only)

4) Keltec 3AT (from high ready only)

5) Keltec P-11 in 9mm

Does anyone have any "gun requests?" Is anyone else up for the challenge?

p
 
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Look forward to the results! How about a larger 9mm (eg: M&Pc), or do you not consider the P-9 and P-11 a tad redundant?
 
Hey.............wait a minute............ what if the .32 carrier has "full confidence" in it? Does that change the power, momentum and penetration issues?

:D :D :D
I'm sure he'll have "full confidence" in it right up the the point where his assailant cancels his ticket.
 
Huntsman wrote: " 'm starting to think the best reason to carry a .380acp is just to piss-off all those who think I shouldn’t."

I'm starting to think the best reason to carry a .45 ACP is to stop an attack by an aggressive felon.
 
Look forward to the results! How about a larger 9mm (eg: M&Pc), or do you not consider the P-9 and P-11 a tad redundant?

I don't have a compact M&P, but I do have a Glock 26. I can do that one.

I do find the Keltec P-11 and Kahr a bit redundant, but since the P-11 is specifically mentioned by one of the posters as being "uncontrollable," it made sense to include it. Likewise, since my direct comparison to the Beretta 84 is the Kahr P-9, it makes sense to include that, as well.

Thanks for the comments!
 
You can't prepare for EVERYTHING. If I stumble over a grizzly bear on my way to the parking lot, my CCW will not be enough. If I turn the corner into a Colombian Cartel in a shootout over drugs, I'm not going to be ready. If those are likely threats in your neighborhood, I recommend a 12 Ga. loaded with slugs, a fully auto AK, body armor and an appointment with a realtor.

Luckily, the most likely threats in my life are low-life meth addicts or shivering gangsta wannabes. A .45 would be great for dealing with those. So would a 9mm. But I'm betting a smaller gun would suffice. (In my case it's a .38 snubbie, but I'm shopping for a .380.)

As for the higher cost of .380: I'm lucky to find time to shoot 5 full boxes of my CCW ammo per year. That would make the price difference about 30 bucks a year. That's one dinner, out.

Yes, I realize I'm betting my life. Just like I'm betting my life every day I drive my little-bitty Honda instead of a Hummer H2. Life is full of compromises. I'll compromise a little power to carry a lightweight gun that's comfortable to shoot.
 
If you'll carry a .380, but not something larger, then you're better off with the .380.

You raise a more difficult question: Which is better, a large .380 (Beretta 84) or a similarly sized 5-shot J frame .38 snubby?

Hmmmmmmmmm.............
 
But I'm betting a smaller gun would suffice. (In my case it's a .38 snubbie...

Here's a pic of what I did a couple months ago at the range with a .38 snub with 158 grain LSWCHP +P factory ammo in the "I-can-shoot-fairly-well" drill:



DSCF0001.jpg
 
Just don't expect thinking folks to accept your "my small and weak caliber is just as effective as your bigger one" garbage.

fastcast, I noticed two things:

1) you were not done discussing this topic, as you claimed. ;)

2) you totally ignored my range drills. I'm going to do them all! Which one are you going to do?

Did you fall off your highchair as a baby and puncture your Cerebral cortex? :eek:

Can you please go back and find where I said what you claim: "my small and weak caliber is just as effective as your bigger one".......Uh, oh that's right, you can't because I never said that. As a matter of fact I've said numerous times, that I'm not saying the .380 is just as effective, all things being equal of course. All I've said is the .380 can be very effective if you hit the vitals.....What part of that do you find difficult to understand? :what: The part about me not believing your assertion that .380 is no better than a "spitball", as you claim with such asinine authority? :rolleyes:

No, I'm not playing your games or doing as you tell me to. You want to twist and turn everything I'm saying and you now want me to participate in some unofficial shootout, including shooting times and papers punched full of holes from 2 feet.....LMAO..... No thanks, I find no legitimacy in you do this and I'll do that and we'll then post our results on THR. :rolleyes:
 
simple 380 will work so will a 44 mag, but 44 mag has better stopping power its simple 380 is small but it is light and more comfortable to carry, 44 mag is big but is not as easy to carry.
 
The part about me not believing your assertion that .380 is no better than a "spitball", as you claim with such asinine authority?

Why the hostility? Are you off your meds?

First of all, I didn't say the .380 was no better than a spitball. I said "if you want to carry a .380, .32 or spitball, go ahead." A 3rd grader knows that I didn't say that a .380 IS a spitball.

I even clarified this for you in post #128. All you had to do was read it. :rolleyes:

Can you please go back and find where I said what you claim: "my small and weak caliber is just as effective as your bigger one".......Uh, oh that's right, you can't because I never said that.

Let's see.........Post #110:
I'm sure no bad guys are gonna want anything to do with 14 rounds of .380 coming out of a Beretta 84 with a full 4" barrel, as fast and accurate as could possibly be imagined. That's what those pistols are all about, fast, accurate and high cap to assure the job gets done.

That sounds rather declarative and final to me. But, ok, you didn't actually say the .380 was "just as effective" as a larger caliber. You simply inferred it multiple times...so, my mistake....:rolleyes:

No, I'm not playing your games or doing as you tell me to. You want to twist and turn everything I'm saying and you now want me to participate in some unofficial shootout, including shooting times and papers punched full of holes from 2 feet.....LMAO.....

It was more of an invitation, or an excuse to go to the range! And the distance is 5 yds, not 2 feet. Again, all you had to do was read the post....

No thanks, I find no legitimacy in you do this and I'll do that and we'll then post our results on THR.

Just as I predicted in Post # 141:
But try and get them to show off that skill! Oh, no, they have "no need to showboat," .....Regardless, they assure you (and mostly themselves) that they are, indeed, very highly skilled.

As fastcast claimed in Post #110:
I can put 3 rounds from the 84 in a softball size group at 7 yards faster than one can imagine.

I doubt it.

But why go out and perform a simple drill when blustering arrogance might suffice online?
 
Saying .380 can get the job done "multiple" times is hardly saying it's just as good as the larger calibers......It's simply stating that it can be effective in personal SD roles for civilians. I realize now though, that you have a very hard time with comprehension 101. :what:

Look, you guys that want to carry a .380 or .32 or spitballs, go ahead.

I think it's pretty clear that you're equating both the .380 and .32 in the same league as a spitball....Your words above, not mine.....Stop trying to back pedal. :banghead:

I know what I'm capable of with my pistols and I don't need to prove it to you. As if posting some pictures of paper and times on the internet proves anything....LOL

Guess what, I can do the same thing with my newly acquired CZ-82 in 9Mak.....As a matter of fact my 1911 buddy, who believes no other pistol is worthy to be carried, shot my 82 and double tapped a softball, wedged in an old, rotted tree stump at 5 yards (like you set up, I normally go 7yrd.). He was shocked and you could see the surprise all over his face. :what: He could never do that with the .45 nor could I with .45 or .40.

So my point is since you obviously hate these rounds and the larger guns that shoot them and most likely have no first hand experience with them, you are showing your ignorance of what they're capable of. For the record, that hard core 1911 buddy really liked that CZ-82 and said "I'd carry that in the summer, it even has the same controls as the 1911". .......Maybe someday your light will turn on too but I doubt it.
 
He could never do that with the .45 nor could I with .45 or .40.

Yeah, it's that whole "proper technique and practice" thing again.......:rolleyes:


I "know" what I'm capable of with my pistols and I don't need to prove it to you.

No.........but I was hoping.......that instead of having delusions of your proclaimed skill
I can put 3 rounds from the 84 in a softball size group at 7 yards faster than one can imagine.
.......you'd want to find out your actual ability........ for yourself.
 
Fastcast; you're definitely on the right track. You don't have to have a 9mm luger or larger to have an effective self defense gun. Obviously, guns and calibers have their limitations. I routinely carry a 32acp (10% of the time), 9x18 9mm makarov CZ-82 (70% of the time), and Sig P220 45acp (20% of the time). There's an occasional time when I will throw an AMT 380 backup into my front pocket, but that not too often.

Point is: The 32acp with FMJ, penetrates on average, 13-15". The 380acp does 12-15" with Hollow Points and 16-17" with FMJ. And the 9x18 9mm makarov does 15-18" with FMJ and 12-14" with Hollow Points. And NONE of these measurements include ammo like Buffalo-Bore that's got some pretty good rounds for the 32, 380, and 9x18.

It's sad when when people quote FBI recommended standards of penetrating greater than 12"; yet when the caliber you want to use DOES THIS, those who don't "Like" the caliber, will discard it's specs. I'll be the first to admit that I don't use Hollow Points in the 32acp. (Unless it's some of the RARE 60grain Fiocchi). Normally, it's Fiocchi FMJ. Average gelatin penetration is 15 Inches. So, what is wrong with that again???? I also use FMJ for the 380 (Unless I'm using buffalo-bore). The 9x18 I use both FMJ and HP. Some people think the HP were invented to create a larger virtual caliber hole. The main reason for HP was for high velocity bullets to eliminate over penetration. Yes, expansion is a side benefit. But there's nothing wrong with with FMJ or Cast bullets in the 32, 380, or 9x18.

But what's most important, is that if you are faster and more accurate with the 32 or 380, than you are with the same size gun chambered in 9mm, 40, or 45, then you should DEFINITELY use that 32 or 380 caliber. Anyone saying differently really doesn't understand. I am most accurate with my Sig P220 45acp. However, the gun is pretty big. It is not the easiest to carry. I also have a shorter 45acp model, but I'm not as accurate with that. With my CZ-82 9x18, I don't think I could miss if I wanted to. I love that caliber and size of gun the best. Definitely choose the one that you are the fastest and most accurate with. And don't worry what others say. Chances are, you will be more proficient with your smaller caliber gun than you would be with the same small gun in a larger caliber. FWIW, that AMT Backup 380 is a freaking bear to shoot. Yes, within 20 feet, it will definitely work. So it's great in the front pocket. But I couldn't even imagine a front pocket size pistol shooting a 9mm luger or 40sw. I wouldn't even want to shoot that gun.
 
Here we have to make the most of 380, since nothing more powerful is allowed.

That being the case, there is a place for the bigger 380.

If I were lucky enough to live in the States, I'd carry one of the smaller 9mm.

Here, I have to make do with a Mak or Glock 25.

But I'm not complaining.

If I were still in England, I'd have to beg the assailant not to shoot me, or try to overpower him physically, which is something of a problem even for a fit, young man, but out of the question for a sixty year old.

Provided I practise enough, I feel that 15 rounds of 380 in a Glock or even 9 in a Mak, at least gives me a fighting chance.
 
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