Practical performance difference between 9mm+p .38 super and .357 Sig?

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Jason_W

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I'm really hoping to avoid starting a caliber war with this question, but I'm wondering if, given the availability of +P 9x19mm loads if there is any real world advantage to one of the souped up 9mm loads like the .38 super or even the .357 Sig.

The reason I ask is that I'm considering re-entering the world of handguns with an entry level 1911 clone. I like classic look and feel of the platform over the more modern polymer pistols and Rock Island Armory offers affordable entry level models that get almost universally positive reviews.

I saw that in addition to models in .45 ACP and 9x19mm, the company also sells pistols in .38 Super. I did a little research on the round, and found my interest piqued due to the fact that it sports a little extra velocity than standard pressure 9mm, and has a bit of interesting history attached to it. I'm just wondering if that extra performance would be worth the fact that ammo will be more expensive and harder to find, especially since 9mm +P loads come very close in terms of velocity and energy.

NOTE: I realize that the .357 SIG isn't chambered in a 1911, but I figure it's worth adding to the discussion since it's another souped up 9mm that runs neck and neck with the hotter 9x19mm loads.
 
The advantage to the .38 Super or 9x23 Win in the 1911 is those rounds are the same length as the .45Auto which is what the gun was designed for. The 9mm is shorter and requires some kind of spacer in the mags for the round to work. Even then some have trouble with 9mm 1911's, though as they are becoming more popular the bugs are getting worked out.

The disadvantage to the .38 Super is ammo cost and availability.

Here is a custom 9mm 1911 endurance test article that may shed some general light on 9mm 1911's.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/6718
 
There are a few .357 Sig chambered 1911s out there, but again the .357 Sig is stubbier than a .38 Super or 9x23. That requires spacers in the magazine, and therefore you have to experiment with finding a source of trouble-free magazines.

Granted, you'll get more muzzle energy out of a hotter 9mm round but there's the cost of more expensive and scarcer ammo with more recoil and muzzle blast. Crank off some hot .38 Super or .357 Sig ammo in a tight place, and you'll see. :cool:

I have had good luck with the Checkmate 9mm magazines in my 1911 9mm. The .38 Super Metalform magazines work well, and I've loaded them with 9mm for use in the before-mentioned pistol. Your experience may differ.
 
What JTQ said. With .38 super, you're getting a round close in length to what the 1911 was designed for.

Some 9mm (or .40/.357 sig) 1911's run well. But a lot don't.
 
Lots of variables like bullet weight, specific loading, and barrel length. But, roughly speaking, for factory ammo, the 9mm and .38 Super put you in the 1150-1200 fps region. The .327 Sig boosts things up to the 1350 fps area. Somewhat hotter.

I like the 9mm. Factory ammo is readily available and competitively priced. Ditto brass and bullets if you reload, which is a snap. The .38 Super is a bit rare, ammo selection is thin, but has a cult following, especially with reloaders. It can be loaded fairly hot, up in the 1300+fps range. The .327 Sig has become readily available and not too expensive. It can be a bit tricky to reload for. All three get the job done. I don't think any of the top makers make premium SD rounds like HST, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, etc., for the .38 Super. Need to make those yourself.
 
I haven't ruled out the .45 ACP, of course. While looking into affordable, entry level 1911s, I saw the .38 Super as an option and down the google rabbit hole I went.

Sometimes it's fun to take the path a little less traveled, but if ammo is prohibitively rare or expensive, some of that fun diminishes.
 
I got a colt .38 super. Sure like it and the round. I can find ammo easily for it but choices are limited.

You likely won't notice the difference between 9mm +p and .38 super while shooting paper. Course the .38 super works well in the 1911 platform as others have said. In 1911's I only like gods caliber and .38 super. If I wanted 9mm there are so many better choices than a 1911. Too each their own though.

I also own and shoot .357 sig in an xd and m40 with conversion barrel steyr. It's maybe my favorite round other than 10mm....When we are talking the easy to find not very popular calibers. I'm surprised .357 sig isn't more popular than it is....but with the modern loadings in 9mm and .40s&w. ...I guess it makes sense .357 sig can't find a home.

I own and shoot all three calibers....there isn't a bad one in the bunch and shooting paper you won't notice anything performance wise. For practical reasons 9mm makes the most sense...but everything doesn't need to be practical.
 
Course the .38 super works well in the 1911 platform as others have said. In 1911's I only like gods caliber and .38 super. If I wanted 9mm there are so many better choices than a 1911. Too each their own though.
Click to expand...
Amen to that.
 
You can find a good deal of information on the 38 Super, from history to commercial ammo available to handloading, here...

www.38super.net

Commercial ammo for the 38 Super is available from a variety of sources. Here are a couple...

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/38-Super/products/300/

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=24&newcategorydimensionid=15427

There are more as well.

Handloading is also an option.

In general the 38 Super will give you 50-100 fps more velocity with a given bullet weight over the 9mm+P. You can easily get 1300-1350 fps from a 5" barrel with a 125 gr. bullet. The Super can deal with heavier bullets than the 9mm can as well. You can get a 158 gr. bullet up to 1200 fps from the Super and stay within pressure limits.

The 357 Sig is a more powerful round than the Super, again by about 50-100 fps depending on bullet weight.

Commercial ammo for the Super varies from 1100 fps from a 5" barrel to 1350 or so. It's soft shooting from a 1911.

tipoc
 
.38 Super factory ammo, unless hot-loaded a la Cor-Bon or Buffalo Bore, may not really give you anything over 9mm +P. However, .38 Super can be loaded to outperform most any 9mm, so the performance ceiling is higher. It is most common and most popular with competitive shooters, so most of the loads are tuned for specific power factors, loaded with FMJ bullets, and not loaded to the full power capability of the round.

.357 Sig also has more defensive loads available, as it is a not-uncommon law enforcement caliber, so there are Gold Dot, HST, and Ranger loads for it. Performance-wise, you will get 150-250 fps over the hottest 9mm loads.

A typical 124-gr. +P 9mm will go 1250 fps or so. .38 Super defensive loads could hit 1300-1350 with a similar bullet weight without reaching a max load. .357 Sig will start at about 1350 fps with a 125-gr. bullet and go from there.
 
The round we call today the 38 Super was developed by John Browning and Colt in 1898 as the 38 acp. It is a semi-rim design. From the 6" barrel of Browning's M1900 Sporter and Military Models the 130 gr. fmj bullet did 1300 fps.

That velocity was unheard of from a handgun of the time and too powerful for the early parallel ruler guns that it was built for. So it was cut back in factory loadings to about 1100 fps.

Colt felt the round was too good to die out so in 1927 they chambered it in the 1911. Colt named the new gun the Colt Super 38. It was chambered in 38acp. The gun was strong enough for the older 1300 fps velocity and many, but not all, companies loaded the round up to 1200-1300 fps again. The 1300 fps (from a 6" barrel, less from the 1911s 5" tube) was not considered a hot load at the time. Just a standard load well within the pressure limits of the Super. Still is. Somewhere over the years we took to calling the round the 38 Super as well.

The 9x23 Winchester grew out of the 38 Super. The rimless case is the same length but has a thicker web which makes it stronger internally and means it has the same powder capacity as the Super but is able to handle higher pressures. It begins at about 1400 fps from a 5" barrel with 125 gr. bullet.

Both the Super and the 9x23 have a 9+1 capacity from a single stack 1911.

The capacity for the 357 Sig loads will be the same as the 40 S&W.

The handloader can use a variety of bullets from either the 9mm or the 38/357 magnum as well as those sized specifically for the 38 Super. Most factory barrels for the Super are the same diameter internally as the 9mm.

Here you can compare some of the ammo available for each...

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=24&newcategorydimensionid=15427

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=24&newcategorydimensionid=10070

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=24&newcategorydimensionid=15461

tipoc
 
Jason_W

Love my .38 Super and the fact that with the addition of a 9mm. barrel assembly (Storm Lake), and magazines I can practice a lot more with less expensive 9mm. ammo (something of which I have quite a bit of). Maybe someday I will get around to looking for something in .357 SIG but for now I get a lot of enjoyment using my .38 Super Colt Commander.
guns2037_zps6010dc72.gif
 
Jason, I've had 9MMs, 38 Supers and a couple .357 SIGs by various manufacturers. Seems to me SIG was going to release a .357 SIG in their 1911 types pistols at some point. Factory .357 SIG does exceed most, if not all, factory .38 Super and 9MM, 9MM+P and 9MM +P+ ballistics. That being said, I much prefer the .38 Super and 9MM. In factory ammo, there may not be as much difference in 9MM and .38 Super as many shooters think. One thing to keep in mind when looking at factory ballistics charts and reloadiing manuals is that velocities for 9MM are usually shown in 4" barrels, while .38 Super ballistics will usually be quoted from 5" barrels. It does make a difference. Fired in the same barrel length, the gap between .38 Super and 9X19MM significantly narrows. For example, I used to have two Kimber pistols with 5" barrels, one in 38 Super, one in 9MM. I had some CorBon 125 grain ammo in 9MM and .38 Super. I chronographed both loads with these pistols, virtually identical except for caliber. The 38 Super averaged 1314 fps, the 9MM averaged 1339 fps. Probably not what most shooters would have expected. On another occasion, I tested some CorBon 125 grain .357 SIG ammo in my SIG with 4.4" barrel. It averaged 1437 fps, even with the shorter barrel. I didn't have a pistol at that time with a 5" barrel to test the CorBon .357 SIG ammo. Wish I had. I know my examples are way too limited to conclusively prove anything, but may give an idea about performance of these different calibers, at least as loaded by one manufacturer.

Anyway, much as I enjoy the 38 Super, if I had to choose, I'd pick the 9mm.

BTW, later 9MM 1911s, with the integral ramped barrels tend to be boringly reliable with quality ammo. The traditional unramped barrels as used by Colt may require a bit of tweaking/tuning for reliable function with all bullet weights and types. I believe RIA uses the unramped type barrel, but I do hear good things about the RIA 9MMs...........
 
Chocolate Bayou said:
You call out 9MM +P, but fell to mention that most all 38 super ammo is +P. Don't known if I've a box that was not
Click to expand...
.38 Super +P is just to further differntiate it from .38 ACP. Any .38 Super load would blow up an old Colt meant for .38 ACP. It's only marked as +P as another safety valve to prevent that from happening.
 
You can get a 158 gr. bullet up to 1200 fps from the Super and stay within pressure limits
Click to expand...
This is the big practical advantage IMHO of the 38 super added to the excellent accuracy of a good 1911 super, the ability to shoot a 150 gr SWC hard cast that'll penatrate like gangbusters make a nice woods gun.
 
What mavracer said is certainly true and even with commercial loads. 147 gr. loads with the 9mm are popular and generate about, at most, about 1000 fps and are good as defensive loads with a good bullet like the one below...

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/36...d-hollow-point-box-of-25?cm_vc=ProductFinding

But the Super does about 200 fps more with a 147 gr. bullet...

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/25...in-jacketed-hollow-point?cm_vc=ProductFinding

The Super does a better job as a woods/hunting gun than the 9mm and still does very well as a carry piece.

It also does well in 115 gr. and lighter loads, one example here...

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/79...oint-lead-free-box-of-20?cm_vc=ProductFinding

If I had only one or two guns for self defense I'd go with the 9mm over the Super. Mainly because of the wider availability of good guns and ammo. But I don't have that problem. I have guns in 9mm and I also have guns in 38 Super because I like the round, the 1911 and because of it's versatility.

tipoc
 
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You'll get the biggest benefit out of a .38 Super only if you're a hand loader. If you're buying only commercial ammo, I would stay away from it.

My most often carried piece is a Kimber Pro Carry HD (stainless) in .38 Super with some very potent hand loads. It has never failed to function.
 
In terms of raw power, you get more with either 357 SIG or .38 Super, but that doesn't necessarily do much for you. 9mm is one of the top defensive rounds, so ammo companies spend a lot of time tuning performance for that velocity window. Check out some of the brochures from the ammo companies and the .357 SIG and 9mm loads perform pretty similarly, especially the 147gr 9mm. With more attention and tuning, perhaps the 357 could do better, but I'm not sure it has the following to command that kind of attention. .38 Super will get even less factory support and the best bullets like Ranger-T and HSTs aren't typically sold loose to reloaders. The Gold Dot is always there for you though.

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/WinchesterRangerAmmo.gif

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp...eral-Premium-Tactical-HST-Ammo-Comparison.jpg

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Speer-Gold-Dot-Ammunition-Comparison.jpg

For the record, there is some Vihta Vouri (spelling?) data out there that'll turn a .38 Super nuclear, but I'm not sure if it requires a ramped (fully supported) barrel to prevent getting "Super faced".

I really looked hard at the .38 Super for awhile, but I just didn't want to have to chase my brass that hard for the marginal increase in performance. It's pretty easy to go a lifetime without having to spend a penny on 9mm brass if you don't want to.
 
As of now, I'm leaning toward the basic .45 acp. While a little more expensive than the 9mm, it is still pretty easy to find, usually. Plus, what's more a more American classic bore diameter than .45"?
 
38 Super vs 9mm +P

For defense I keep CorBon DPX 125 Hollow points in my 38 Super and in all my nines for defense I keep Hornady 9mm 134gr +P Critical Duty. I don't see any problems stopping anybody with either round. The 38 Super resides in my night stand and the 9mm is on my side.
 
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