Practical vs target shooting--common shooter errors

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JohnKSa

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I was a range officer for a practical-type pistol match today.

Most of the participants had never shot any kind of a practical pistol match. So, to simplify things, there was no moving and no drawing. Competitors shot from one position and started from the low ready.

It immediately became obvious that "target shooting" (shooting straight ahead at a single target until the gun is empty) is poor preparation for even a restricted simulation of a shooting encounter like our carefully controlled "pseudo-IDPA" match.

Here are some of the common problems I saw.

Operating the slide after a reload even when the slide had not locked back. Most people were obviously conditioned to operate the slide after putting in a magazine. So in the situation where there was a mandatory reload, nearly all of them put in the fresh magazine and then racked the slide--dumping a live round into the dirt. Almost everyone did this at least once.

General failure of the shooters to shoot within their abilities as well as shooters somewhat lacking in basic shooting skills. One of the stages had the shooters breaking 6 clays at about 10 yards. They were allowed to use 2 magazines to accomplish this task. Several people left clays unbroken, and I think only one competitor managed to break all 6 with only 6 rounds. A big problem was that people were going too fast, but some took plenty of time and emptied both magazines without breaking them all.

General failure to grasp the idea that HITTING the targets is the MAIN point--NOT simply shooting the proper number of rounds (as in normal target shooting). Several competitors stopped shooting the stages with rounds left in the gun even though they had one or more misses. Since this never happened on the clays stage, I think this indicates the importance of reactive targets in this kind of training although clearly you don't want people getting into the idea that a single hit is good enough either.

Reloading problems galore including:

* An obvious reticence to let magazines fall to the ground during reloads while at the same time not knowing what to do with ejected mags. Some would pull them out with the weak hand and then drop them while others would pull them out and then fumble around a bit trying to figure out what to do with them before dropping them. I saw only one or two shooters who let their mag release do all the work.

* Some odd mag extraction and insertion techniques. One guy held the gun by the slide with his strong hand during reloads. Several others pointed the gun at the sky or off to the side during the reload. One guy seated the magazine by putting his fingers under the floorplate and his thumb over the slide and squeezing.

* Leaving finger on the trigger during a reload.

* Failure to properly seat a magazine during a reload resulting in malfunctions. This happened to several shooters and a couple had it happen more than once.

I think that nearly all of these problems are the result of self-training at the target shooting range. People were trying to do what they normally did when they shot at a single target and that was NOT good for their performance.
 
IMHO, such posts dis the shooting community and those who favor responsible gun ownership and handling.

And even if made as a joke.
 
such posts dis the shooting community
I hoped that posting this information might help prevent people from making the mistakes I observed today.
 
It just proves that more people should be out there doing it instead of on here talking about doing it. :p

Nice post John.

Ed
 
I for one thank the thread starter. Very useful observations. It comes to show many are unprepared for a real life-and-death situation, even if they do a lot of single-target shooting. Even if just one reader would rethink his training routine as a result of this thread, it would be proven useful.
 
Indeed John. We fight the way we train. Thanks for the observations.
Biker
 
Nice that you edited your post John.

okjoe

It was not my intent to offend and if people are offended, the point of the post is at least partially lost. Therefore I sent you a PM asking:

"could you please ... let me know why my comments look like an attack rather than an informative post. I can change the wording of the original post if part of it is unintentionally offensive." (If you wish to post the entire text of the PM, you have my permission to do so.)

You did not answer the PM, so I looked through my original post and tried to guess what you might think was offensive.

Here are the changes I made as nearly as I can recall.

"It immediately became painfully obvious" to "It immediately became obvious"

"is very poor preparation for even a restricted simulation " to "is poor preparation for even a restricted simulation "

"Some very odd mag extraction" to "Some odd mag extraction"

"shooters lacking in shooting ability." to "shooters somewhat lacking in basic shooting skills."​
 
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re:

Good post John. Even though it's not a sin to be inexperienced in a given stage match, there's no excuse for dangerous gun-handling practices.
You don't have to RO for a match to get the heebie-jeebies though...which is why I go to the range early weekdays, get done and get out.
 
Hi John,

Guess I am a bit touchy of late. Sorry.

Didn't read your PM. Will check it out one of these days.

I have heard lots about morons with guns, and I guess Texas has more than their fair share. This will probably get me in a heap of trouble.

Still, talking such up, does tend to make one believe that such could in fact be true.

Not being critical, but why anyone would be able to see someone with their finger on the trigger while they are doing whatever with a gun other than getting ready to shoot, and not kick them off the range, or not tell them to knock it off or get the hell off the range, seems a bit far fetched to me.

Been to the range more than once, and to a couple of IPSC shoots, and only saw responsible gun handling and shooting.

Whose in charge???

Sorry if my comments rub you the wrong way.

..........

Just read your PM John,

My initial post had nothing to do with you or any prior comments of yours re some post of mine, if you ever made any.

I don't remember much, and whether or not this or that was critical or not, or addressed to me.

Being old and forgetful can be a blessing. And that doesn't stop us elders from being cranky. You will understand all of that as time goes by.

I just saw the above post and made a response. That's all. Nothing personal.

Some years back up in Juneau, I was just accross the street from where they were digging and blasting for the new State House. A wistle blew, and a muffled explosion was heard. Then several large sized rocks that went up and through a protective steel meshwork set over the blast site, began to tumble and fall down all around.

Yours truley, sucked up as close to, and as invisible as possible against a utility pole as those mindless messengers from who knows where, made themselves known, and came down with death and destruction on their empty minds.

It wasn't a plot.

Nothing personal.

It just happened.
 
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Fair enough. I've been accused of being touch myself--and probably with good reason. ;)
I have heard lots about morons with guns, and I guess Texas has more than their fair share.
They've got plenty, I guess.
why anyone would be able to see someone with their finger on the trigger while they are doing whatever with a gun other than getting ready to shoot, and not kick them off the range, or not tell them to knock it off
The finger on the trigger thing wasn't good and the person was chastised but not asked to leave since the muzzle stayed pointed at the target the entire time and the range was hot at the time. I just don't think it's smart to have your finger on the trigger while you're dropping the slide--period. It's a very bad habit to get into.

I'm being a bit picky in my comments about the muzzle control issues. While muzzles did wander a couple of times, they were never pointed in an unsafe direction. It's an indoor range that is built to be safe as long as the muzzle doesn't get pointed back towards the firing line. Still, I like the muzzle to stay pointed toward the target, not just GENERALLY downrange. Getting the muzzle aimed at the sidewalls or ceiling baffles, IMO is improper gun handling even if it's safe.
Whose in charge???
I was... I'm sure we'll get some comments on how other people feel about the handling issues--in fact if we don't, I'll make another post in a few days specifically to discuss them. ;)

That's not really what I was trying to get at though. What bothered me most wasn't the (minor?) handling issues. The really worrisome thing was that even though some of these guys had lots of shooting experience, this match showed that their shooting experience wasn't doing them much practical good because their "practice" hadn't prepared them properly.
 
Good post.

One I've seen often enough and I'm not sure if it has to do with unfamiliarity of a weapon or even if the shooter was a target shooter but after the draw, I've seen people hit the magazine release instead of the safety then stand dumbfounded as to what to do next. The first time I had a jam in an IPSC shoot myself, I stood there thinking I would get an alibi. :eek:
 
Operating the slide after a reload even when the slide had not locked back. Most people were obviously conditioned to operate the slide after putting in a magazine. So in the situation where there was a mandatory reload, nearly all of them put in the fresh magazine and then racked the slide--dumping a live round into the dirt. Almost everyone did this at least once.
Note that some tacticals school teach just this behavior. The rationale behind it I believe goes like this:

1. it streamlines several different manual of arms flows down to one: whenever you seat a magazine (or "tap" in T-R-B), you rack the slide. For example, when you do an emergency reload, you need to rack the slide or hit the slide release. Racking the slide is done because it is a gross motor skill. If you train to only rack the slide on an emergency reload and not a tac or speed reload, then you have two possible things to do next, which slows down the decision cycle.

2. it always ensures a round is chambered after a magazine change, for example, if the slide failed to lock back on an empty chamber.

I agree that it does not make sense in most practical games, since emergency reloads are generally evidence of a stage planning and/or execution failure.

-z
 
a lot of shooters have trouble..in a pseudo match environment because they have never done anything but plinking the idea of 1.) people really watching, 2.) shooting under a clock and for score, 3.) consciously trying to follow safety rules adds stress and causes their fine motor skills to go away..

as Zak says.. a few shooting schools teach to rack the slide on reloads to simply the manipulations to a single gross motor skill while under stress...

anyway..match shooting, shooting with a clock..opens whole new world to shooters...some like it...some don't..

I hope you took the opportunity to coach, teach and encourage these shooters to do better.
 
It sounds more like a new shooter type of training get to know you match.
Someone needs to start some time and the only way is to teach them and for them to get the proper training.
I find only about 1 out of every 20 ends up shooting matches after them taking our clinics. but thats fine as the ones that come back do indeed want to learn. The only ones I laugh at or make fun of are my peers and I expect them to do the same to me if I screw up.remember there are 3 types of folks that shoot competitions. There are the ones that have made a mistake, There are the ones who will make a mistake and then there are the ones that will again make a mistake.
Now we only target shoot with rifles but there are some decent target shooter the last time I looked.
 
Good Topic

Thanks for posting your observations John.

What John's post illustrates is that there is a big difference between training for marksmanship and training to fight (a real encounter or a practical match). While IPSC and IDPA in and of themselves can't be considered comabt training, they do force the shooter out of a square range mentality.

You should train all three sides of the combat triangle Mindset, Marksmanship and Manipulation. Marksmanship is in my experience the easiest skill of the three to aquire. Mindset and manipulation are the hard skills. It doesn't take an instructor very long to have someone totally unfamiliar with shooting making acceptable hits at normal combat ranges in a reasonable amount of time. Teaching that same person to efficiently manipulate his/her weapon will take many thousands of correct repetitions. Some people will never be able to aquire the right mindset. Their minds just won't work that way. That's not a put down to anyone, not everyone is cut out for that.

Yet I know that there are many shooters out there who are very competant in their particular branch of the shooting sports who think that that skill is instantly transferrable to gunfighting. I'd wager that there are many THR members who feel that way. And most of them will go through life believing that, because, thankfully, they will never be tested in a real gunfight and they will never broaden their interest in the shooting sports to try IPSC or IDPA or any other kind of practical shooting.

Jeff
 
In my opinion, the entire training methodology for combat shooting is completely messed up. Shooting at pieces of paper at the range will never be sufficient training for "real world" gunfights.

Look at it this way. Let's say you were training in some martial art. And all you ever do is hit pieces of paper. Sometimes you have to run around, and then hit the paper. Sometimes you have to strike from weird positions. If you go to a really expensive school, you may even have "punch houses," where you go through a building hitting pieces of paper and differentiating between "punch" and "no punch" targets. Maybe you compete, seeing who can punch the most pieces of paper in the shortest time. But you never actually spar. Will you gain any kind of real world proficiency?

Gunfighting isn't that different. The majority of self defense scenarios that private citizens and police officers are involved in take place at 10 feet or less, often against an opponent who is intent on closing range and disarming you.

Even in gunfights that take place at longer ranges, what actually happens will most likely have absolutely nothing in common with training. First of all, you have to realize there's a threat. Is that guy drawing a gun or scratching an itch? Is that a cell phone or a knife? Was that a gunshot or a car backfiring? Is that guy going home from a baseball game, or is he going to bust your head with that bat? Then in some cases you have to actually find the threat. If someone opens fire on you, chances are that they will not be standing out in the open, plainly visible, like most targets are. They'll probably either be completely out of sight behind cover, or running away extremely fast.

It may be possible to train to do stuff like find cover, but that doesn't make paper targets any more alive. There really is no substitute for shooting a living, thinking human being. And the only practical way to do that in training is to use lower power airsoft guns. Paintball guns and simunitions are way too powerful to use at typical gunfight distances (0-10 feet), without some serious protective gear. Even using red/blue guns in a sort of "bang, you're dead" manner would be better than shooting at pieces of paper in many cases.
 
I don't think anyone is seriously saying that any type of practical competition, alone, IS training. We've beaten that horse to death in some other threads. Practical competition can help with gun-handling and marksmanship under some stress. Not mindset, Not tactics.

Paintball guns and simunitions are way too powerful to use at typical gunfight distances (0-10 feet), without some serious protective gear.
During Force on Force training using UTM's, we regularly engaged and were shot at distances under 10'. Typical protective gear included a paint-ball style mask, and along sleeve shirt or BDU top.
 
Perhaps your matches should have some practice time before hand. I do not compete with pistols too often but I know some clubs here in South Fl do have a practice session followed by a match. Those folks with poor handling skills will not improve unless made aware of the fact and then shown the proper way to do what they just did incorrectly
 
RyanM said;
In my opinion, the entire training methodology for combat shooting is completely messed up. Shooting at pieces of paper at the range will never be sufficient training for "real world" gunfights.

What kind of actual combat training have you had that has led you to this conclusion?

There is no one training methodology or simulator that is perfect. A program has to be well rounded. There are some skills that are best taught on the square range and some that are best taught in a shoot house and some that are best taught in force on force training with some type of simulator. None of them are perfect, but you control the exercise so that you can minimize the imperfections in your engagement simulator.

Jeff
 
I don't think anyone is seriously saying that any type of practical competition, alone, IS training. We've beaten that horse to death in some other threads. Practical competition can help with gun-handling and marksmanship under some stress. Not mindset, Not tactics.

The problem is, practical competition sorta-kinda tries to stress some things that are supposed to be important in combat. Which leads some people to think that maybe scores in "practical" competition will have some correlation with skill in a real gunfight. It's a phenomenon that's uniquely tied to firearms, and it's pretty frustrating. Don't hear many people saying that olympic level fencers would be deadly in a knife fight.

During Force on Force training using UTM's, we regularly engaged and were shot at distances under 10'. Typical protective gear included a paint-ball style mask, and along sleeve shirt or BDU top.

Most people don't have a very good pain threshold. Most people aren't going to train if it means getting large bruises. That's been my experience with paintballs at close range, anyway. Setting them to lower velocities would help, but that's not easy with all models, especially the really cheap ones.

------------------

What kind of actual combat training have you had that has led you to this conclusion?

There is no one training methodology or simulator that is perfect. A program has to be well rounded. There are some skills that are best taught on the square range and some that are best taught in a shoot house and some that are best taught in force on force training with some type of simulator. None of them are perfect, but you control the exercise so that you can minimize the imperfections in your engagement simulator.

Not much, I'll admit. But the range practice and maybe competition that 99% of CCW holders do, is nowhere near adequate preparation for a shooting incident.

Sure, some skills are best taught in different ways, but it really seems to me that the majority of skills necessary to survive the threats a private citizen may face (i.e., not clearing buildings, not team-on-team stuff), are better taught by small group "sparring." Range time is good for learning recoil management and marksmanship, but those are a relatively small part of the necessary skill set, compared to recognizing a threat in the first place, drawing the gun, protecting against disarms, etc. Especially when you consider than 98% of civilian self defense cases don't involve any shots being fired.
 
The problem is, practical competition sorta-kinda tries to stress some things that are supposed to be important in combat. Which leads some people to think that maybe scores in "practical" competition will have some correlation with skill in a real gunfight.
Yeah, people make dumb mistakes all the time. Practical competition DOES stress skills that people think are important for armed self defense, but not ALL the skills.
 
Good observations.

Having seen several of these myself, I say good job pointing them out again. The most common I personally have seem is fumbling reloads because the shooter is holding on to an empty magazine. I seem to recall the police officers in the (N. Hollywood shootout?) putting empty revolver brass in their pockets. Not because they wanted to avoid littering, but because that's what they did all the time at the range and force of habit is strong under pressure.
 
Good stuff. It will be interesting to see how they progress. Is anyone providing them with tips or instruction?
 
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