Scary Moment at IDPA Match

[RioShooter]

Last night during my weekly IDPA match one of the shooters broke the 180 degree rule (I know there really isn't one) and scared the hell out of everyone.

One of the scenarios included a charging target. We were shooting at an indoor range and were using the target holder to charge the shooter. This was a challenge for most of the participants because they were not familiar with shooting at a moving target while backpedaling. However, everyone was doing well until an older (70+) gentleman gave it a try.

He couldn't move backward quickly enough and the moving target was soon upon him. He sidestepped the target, and continued to shoot as it passed him by. One of his shots actually put a 3" groove in the target. The RO was standing behind and to the right of the shooter. He saw the muzzle of the gun pointing directly at him. Fortunately, the gun was in slide lock.


After shooting IDPA for a year, I've never seen anything like this.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

We shot moving targets during SWAT training and the instructor asked us to react as we would if the situation was real.

Two man drills, move and shoot.

Not one but two moving targets coming at us spaced about 10 feet apart. We engaged one with live fire but the other was too close to safely engage, my partner butt stroked the target with his M4 as it passed between us, tore the target and carrier completely off the rail.

Everyone got a good chuckle out of it, instructor said he had never seen anyone go hand to hand with a paper person before.

 

[SigfanUSAF]

We had a female Air Force trainee swing around with her fully loaded M-16A2 on the firing line during basic training, she said "I don't wanna do this". The best part is that her 120 pound body was tackled by two 165-185 pound Male TI's. I've never seen anything quite like it since. Fortunately, no one but her was injured, and they were only bruises!

 

[redneckdan]

I had a situation similar to weasel's. Two moving targets and I was using a revolver. I fumbled the reloaded, pulled my kershaw whirlwind and hacked at the neck of the second target as it passed by. Musta timed it just right cause the diagnol slash cleanly parted the body from the head. I still get harassed at the club for it.

 

[BozemanMT]

The guy was wrong and should have stopped before breaking the 180.

However

Whoever designed the stage did a poor job. You gotta be belts and suspenders, beat safety into everyone and not allow stages that are easily broken and designed badly to put people into a bad and unsafe situation

What if the man had fallen while backpedaling? right into the crowd? etc. Have to imagine the worst case in addition to the best case.

poor stage design and bad judgement on the shooters part all contributed to this very scary incident and I'm glad everyone is ok.

 

[brownie0486]

BozemanMT;

Great observations and comments relative backpedaling. You don't want to do it in the real world for all the reasons you gave, why would anyone design a course of fire that begged someone falling down with a live gun?

The shooter screwed the pooch, but the RO should not be an RO again. We run scoot and shoot drills in every class at ITFTS and I or another instructor are on the shoulders of the shooters crowding them, they never get the chance to turn anywhere but downrange.

If it were any other way, we'd be negligent IMO. Give someone the opportunity to screw up, they will eventually, it's an accident waiting to happen otherwise.

Brownie

 

[RioShooter]

BozemanMT;

Great observations and comments relative backpedaling. You don't want to do it in the real world for all the reasons you gave, why would anyone design a course of fire that begged someone falling down with a live gun?

I don't think this occurred to anyone. Most of the shooters are in their 30's and 40's. I'm 55, but I am in better shape than most of them. We all forgot that one of us might not be physically able to complete the stage.

 

[pax]

The RO should definitely be taken to task over this. While the shooter was in the wrong, the whole purpose for having an RO on the line is to stand watch to prevent this sort of thing. Match shooters tend to be adrenalized and focused strictly on getting hits, too often to the exclusion of paying attention to where the crowd is or where the backstop went.

Agree with Bozeman that the course design was faulty. Have to add though that it's really impossible to make anything foolproof (fools can be amazingly ingenius) and that's why the RO is also necessary. If courses of fire were always 100% foolproof, an RO would be an unnecessary redundancy. As it is, an RO's job is 99.9% useless boredom ... but the .1% that is left is utterly indispensible.

Whether the RO didn't really know his job, or blinked, or got complacent, or wasn't really paying attention, or whatever, doesn't really matter. The point is that the RO's entire responsibility is to watch the shooter's hands and body at all times, and to step in decisively if something dangerous is about to happen. That's the job, and it didn't get done in this case.

Might be time for remedial lessons for your range staff. And if/when you do moving targets again, make sure your staff knows how to stay right with the shooter and within control distance at all times -- not just at the beginning or end of the stage.

pax

 

[chieftain]

He couldn't move backward quickly enough and the moving target was soon upon him. He sidestepped the target, and continued to shoot as it passed him by. One of his shots actually put a 3" groove in the target. The RO was standing behind and to the right of the shooter. He saw the muzzle of the gun pointing directly at him. Fortunately, the gun was in slide lock.

There are reasons, particularly in a 'real' gunfight one should not try going backwards. I have been in a bunch. It didn't work well in real life, and didn't work well in competition.

During one IDPA match where we were pulling a dummy with one hand, shooting with the other going backward on rocky ground, I fell.

I kept my weapon pointed down range. It was one reason I hit my head. Can't break your fall and control your weapon. Once down, I laid the weapon down carefully, muzzle still down range. I asked the RO if I kept the muzzle safe, He was laughing saying the only thing in control was my gun hand, keeping the muzzle down range.

I DNF'd the rest of the match. I had rung my own bell. I didn't feel safe shooting anymore that day. It ain't life or death so I chose to be smart.

We had a female Air Force trainee swing around with her fully loaded M-16A2 on the firing line during basic training, she said "I don't wanna do this". The best part is that her 120 pound body was tackled by two 165-185 pound Male TI's. I've never seen anything quite like it since. Fortunately, no one but her was injured, and they were only bruises!

I was on the Drill Field in 71, MCRD San Diego. Had to grab and slap a few rifles/turds, but never had to tackle anyone.

Guess she just lost her motivation.

That is a funny story.

Fred

 

[GEM]

At an IDPA match, we had a front target and then you had to move to a further back target. A new shooter, turned and pointed at all of us as he moved back. The RO wasn't the regular one and was chastized.

At the NTI we had a mystery gun stage with a doubled barrel shotgun and ammo difficult to manage - don't ask. Anyway, a door opened with two target - bang, bang and then another sprung up and I stroked it.

My current IDPA club is super careful. We had a stage on the ground and we saw that it might lead to an over the berm shot from an unexpected position and it was instantly shut down and reconfigured.. Good RO call.

 

[Bwana John]

I have quit shooting at the local "practical pistol" matches, because of overly "creative" senerios, know it all RO's that dont follow their own rules, and a lack of overall safety.

Its too bad, I enjoy the shooting, and really like and respect many of the shooters.

 

[WYO]

Oh, you mean like a stage that simulates people slaloming down a ski course with their 18 shot open gun and optical sight in a speed rig and 6-18 round spare mags with brightly colored base pads. Been there done that with a real rig, and not as "successfully" as others.

There are limits to what should be done in a format that invites all comers. I'm not SWAT but we've done a lot of two man live fire drills in tire houses, and we've done some things akin to a turning El Presidente, but with a semi-circle of people surrounding the shooter up to the 180 plane, with the shooter starting back to the target facing the semi-circle of friends. You can't just do that with anyone. Being able to back up and shoot (as if to reach cover), or track something that is about to pass you up, is as relevant as anything else, but you just can't offer it to whoever shows up and pays the entry fee.

 

[TarpleyG]

Not one but two moving targets coming at us spaced about 10 feet apart. We engaged one with live fire but the other was too close to safely engage, my partner butt stroked the target with his M4 as it passed between us, tore the target and carrier completely off the rail.

Everyone got a good chuckle out of it, instructor said he had never seen anyone go hand to hand with a paper person before.

I wasn't in this particular class but I have heard an instructor that I know tell a story of a student that went to slidelock and didn't have any more ammo to engage a close-in target so he stabs it in the neck with his folder. That got a good chuckle out of the rest of the class and a kudos from the instructor.

Greg

 

[SRYnidan]

I know a few folks here have covered this ground some already but here is my 2cents.
First the course designer always needs to look a safety from every angle.
However you can not fool proof every scenario. As PAX said the fools can be pretty inventive.
The second big problem is either under trained or over taxed RO’s
I frequently see RSOs (Range Safety Officers) that are time keepers score keepers and what ever other function is at hand rather than their primary function.
Which is to live in the shooters hip pocket and control the shooter (not watch their shooting).

 

[Grump]

At one of the the Soldier of Fortune convention matches in LV in the early/mid-1980s, a shooter ran out of ammo on a shotgun stage with, IIRC, 8-inch plates to be "engaged" "with the shotgun". I didn't see it but my Dad did. The shooter but-stroked that last plate with the shotgun.

A little discussion among the ROs and the shooter's time WAS recorded as valid.

I *heard* there was a bit of a rule change the next year.

Would surely appreciate it if anyone knows more and could expand on this one...

 

[Low-Sci]

Seems like striking paper targets is actually fairly common.

I saw a show on the military channel a long while back, where national guard teams were competing against eachother in a two-man simunition house clearing course. One of the tricks was that a couple rounds in the magazine, unbeknownst to the competitors, were dummies put there to simulate a jam.

One NG team that's going through the house has one member that hits these dummies, clears it, and hits another dummy at the same time his partner does, so he buttstrikes his target and they move on.

In that competition, they scored that last one as a missed target.

 

[Bart Noir]

While I applaud the buttstroke in the real world struggle, on the range it may be seen as very dangerous. If the butt of the weapon is striking the "enemy" then the muzzle may well be pointed at the spectators etc. How did the range officers react to this?

So, when ammo runs out, a swift draw and slice move with the 13-inch Gurka kukri will end the last threat. Hope it isn't a steel target, that's heck on the edge.


Bart Noir
Who wonders what Mall-Ninja throwing stars sound like as they strike reactive targets.

 

[W Turner]

I created an unsafe situation at an IDPA match one time. The RO should have DQ'd me, but chose not to.

The scenario was set up so that you started standing, engaged T1 with three shots, got under a table and egaged T2 and T3 with three shots each(the round count may be off, here it was a couple of years ago) while lying down.

Anyway, I ran thru the stage with good time and good hits.

Here is how it went from there:

RO: If you are finished, unload and show clear

ME: ---Dropped the mag, showed a clear chamber---

RO: The gun is clear, hammer down, holster.

ME: ---Dropped the slide and hammer, holstered.

Sounds great right?

Problem was I was lying down with all the other shooters directly behind me. When I holstered, I covered everyone at my feet/behind me with the muzzle.

The RO immediately leaned down and chastised me. I was very apologetic and ashamed of myself. After I recovered, I went to the staging area and started packing up, but the RO told me I could continue to match since I had followed his instructions to the letter.

Still makes a shiver go down my spine now.

W

 

[AJ Dual]

I gotta go with Pax on this one.

When shooting "the buck stops here" applies to EVERYONE, none moreso than the person on the trigger.

However, adrenaline and "tunnel vision" can happen to anyone. Gross negligence on the part of the person who designed that particular portion of the course.

The target should never move past a predetermined firing line.

These kind of shooting games are valid exercises, but there's "rubber rooms" and ranges with special 270 and 360 degree berm coverage for that sort of thing IMO. I wouldn't be comfortable with any senario where spectators could be behind a target, even if the shooter is supposed to "know better".

 

[GRB]

Sounds like the range officer and whoever else set up the scenario was irresponsible. In addition the shooter was irresponsible, that is if proper range safety had been explained to him. No common sense at a range, pound range safety into your students or risk a negilgent discharge resulting in death.

 

[Ian]

If the butt of the weapon is striking the "enemy" then the muzzle may well be pointed at the spectators etc.

Well, the obvious solution is to keep a bayonet mounted on your competition rifle! Then you can stab the target(s) without muzzle issues.

 

[tanksoldier]

Was shooting IDPA with a rifle side match a few months ago. One guy was using a Yugo SKS w/ blade bayonet... the RO told him he couldn't use the bayonet if he ran out of ammo.

Well, the obvious solution is to keep a bayonet mounted on your competition rifle! Then you can stab the target(s) without muzzle issues.

 

[crofrog]

RO: The gun is clear, hammer down, holster.

This is one of my biggest qualms with IPSC and IPDA comp. One of the major rules is you should not pull the trigger unless you intend for the gun to fire. Yet they make it part of the unloading process. It's asking for trouble, furthermore it get's people into a bad habbit. Then when they are cold / tired / sick whatever, and have to clear a gun they make a mistake like racking the slide, then dropping the mag, then don't check the chamber again and pull the trigger and have an ND. Never happened to me, has happened to a few people I know both of which where frequent competition shooters.

 

[TonyB]

We had a new guy "almost" break the 180 last week....while moving to cover he pointed the gun almost at a 90 degree angle...I was keeping score and the ro and I as well as just about everyone else yelled"muzzle" at the same time.He was at slide lock,and quickly pointed the gun down range,but it was alittle unsettling.
At my 1st major idpa match,on the 1st stage,I fell down,but I kept the gun pointed down range,and since I fell sideways,I actually continued the stage,and did pretty well.I fell from a kneeling position onto my side and ended up shooting from under the car(cover).I think it actually looked like I did it on purpose.

 

[Grump]

[internal quote:] RO: The gun is clear, hammer down, holster. [end of internal quote]

This is one of my biggest qualms with IPSC and IPDA comp. One of the major rules is you should not pull the trigger unless you intend for the gun to fire. Yet they make it part of the unloading process. It's asking for trouble, furthermore it get's people into a bad habbit. Then when they are cold / tired / sick whatever, and have to clear a gun they make a mistake like racking the slide, then dropping the mag, then don't check the chamber again and pull the trigger and have an ND. Never happened to me, has happened to a few people I know both of which where frequent competition shooters.
crofrog is offline Report Bad Post

I share this bit of squeamishness on the "show clear , then PROVE IT by pulling the trigger and giving me a click instead of a bang" practice. In the mid-80s, heard a story/urban legend of an IPSC-type showing his nervous wife how "safe" all this was in his living room. Center-punched his young daughter, then put the mag back on and offed himself.

A story with a strong moral and warning, so it serves its purpose, true or not.

As long as "show clear" includes showing the magwell, I'm willing to concede on that. But as the shooters, WE MUST NEVER SNAP THAT HAMMER/STRIKER without being double-positive we're not loading and ready to holster a hot gun. That's why I only do those things in a SAFE as in bulletproof for that firearm backstop.

W Turner:
I wouldn't feel too bad about sweeping the gallery as you reholstered a CLEARED gun.