Pre 64 Winchester actions - why so good?

[NewZealander]

Hi there
I recently bought an old Winchester Cooey model 710 in 308W (here in NZ $450 - about $290 US). You don't see many of them around over here and the rifle stock is very plain. I'm told the action is the "pre 64 type" and that they are supposed to be very good. Is this true and if so why was/is the pre 64 action so popular? Thanks in advance for any information.
NZer

 

[Outlaws]

I was unaware Winchester made antying called a Model 710. Remington has/had a Model 710.

But the pre-64 thing BS if you ask me. The extraction claw might not be as good (or so 'they' say), but they also fixed a few other things that were giving the "pre-64" models accuracy problems.

But if you ever want the 'pre-64' extraction claw, Winchesters "Classic" models use it.

 

[db_tanker]

NewZelander,

The pre'64 actions are based upon a slightly modified Mauser Control round feed action. Large claw extractor and such...IIRC the round must be fed from the magazine...might be wrong there...the claw might have been modified to allow single round feed thru the top...

POST 64 actions I believe are of a control round PUSH feed, much that that of the Remington and other various manufacturers...doesn't have a large claw extractor but instead a smaller, spring-loaded extractor in the head of the bolt with a plunger to assist in ejecting the brass. These are sometimes called "Remchesters" around here in the States.

Before the shuttering of the Winchester plant here in the States they were producing a Model 70 Classic with the original style CRF actions...a few dollars more, to be sure, but still was an appreciated addition.

Now don't get me wrong, both actions are very good...just that some favor the large claw and positive feed ability of the M-70 CRF/Mauser over the Remington 700 series...

Now what you might have is a re-badge for use/sale there in Oceania due to some marketing deal or some such...inspect the firearm to make sure of what you have purchased.

D

 

[10X]

Winchester made good quality Model 70s in 1964 and prior. In 1965 Winchester greatly cheapened the Model 70 including changing the action from a mauser claw extractor to a puny in bolt extractor. The desirability of the pre '64 action is that it is so much better than the actions that immediately followed it. There are many good actions today. The pre '64 may not necessarily better than actions of other brands today, but it is a Winchester with the feeling of "the good old days" and therefore desirable.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'm a great fan of the pre-'64 Winchester, and agree with Ross Seifried -- the pre-'64 Model 70 is a case of the whole being more than the sum of the parts.

The most common advantage claimed for the Old Model 70 is the Mauser-style claw extractor (which is also called "Controlled Round Feed.") If you hang around boards like this long enough, you'll find several examples of "push feed" extractors breaking and failing. Not often, but it does happen.

Next, Winchester had the 3-position safety -- a major advantage in my book. On "Safe" the bolt is locked down and the striker locked back. Very safe, and the ideal situation for a hunting rifle. On the "Intermediate" position, the striker is still locked, but you can open the bolt. This allows you to load and unload on "Safe.' You never have to go hot.

Contrast this to Remington, where you had to take the safety off to load and unload. As a result of several accidents, Remington simply disabled the bolt lock-down feature -- which is not what you want in a hunting rifle. If you inadvertantly lift the bolt handle, even a fraction, while going through deadfalls and so on, and your prize elk jumps up -- all you're going to hear is a "click" when you pull the trigger.

Third, Old Winchesters feed flawlessly. Magazine lips were machined for the specific cartridge and virtually indestructable.

Fourth, the Winchester magazine floorplate worked -- it held shut on recoil, and took some effort to unlatch, which is exactly what you want. One of the first reviews of the Remington Ultra Mag mentioned how the magazine would unlatch under recoil.

Fifth, the bedding system worked -- the Old Winchester had a boss on the barrel, under the front sight. There was an escutcheon on the underside, which pulled the barrel into the forestock.

When you put that all together, you had a rifle that was as close to perfect for hunting as you can get.

 

[TheTooner]

What you have is essentially a Winchester Model 70. Olin Corp, which then owned the Winchester name, bought the Canadian firearms manufacturer Cooey in the early 1960s and used them to make copies of Winchester designs, mostly to sell to the Canadian market. Cooey Model 71 and Model 710 are Winchester Model 70 copies.

 

[BornAgainBullseye]

Sweet rifle! Wish I still had my model 70.

 

[blackops]

The win m70 featherweight pre 64 was Carlos Hathcocks personal favorite. Even though it's been a while that still says something to me.

 

[Gordon]

Nobody mentioned the "coned breech"! Nothing like feeding ammo into a funnel!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The win m70 featherweight pre 64 was Carlos Hathcocks personal favorite.

That's what he wanted for the Marine sniper program in Viet Nam. He wanted Winchester to make pre-'64s for snipers, but they wouldn't. So he went to Remington, and they said, "Yessir, yessir, three bags full" and busted their hump to meet the Marines' requirements. And as a result Remington came to dominate the bolt-action sniper market.

 

[12many]

I am told the steel is harder also. Gunsmith complained after the fact on the rifle we took him that he would have charged more if he knew it was a pre-64 since the steel is harder on this bit. That is the story I was told by the smith when we went to pick up the gun. If he said it before he drilled I might have consided it bs.

 

[Slamfire]

I own a small number of pre 64’s. The feature I miss most in the pre 64 is the milled in feed lips. The designers of the pre 64 used a good feature found in military rifles from that era. That is the feed lips were milled into the sides of the receiver. Feed and extraction are critical features in military rifles and designers pay particular attention to features that ensure reliable function. Milled in feed lips don’t wear, don’t bend, and if properly machined, work forever. Today’s rifles depend on the lip contours of bent sheet metal magazines. While it works, I have had rifles where it did not work all that well. You can spend hours tweaking the upper edges of the magazine box trying to get a reliable feed.

This thread started before the new FN model 70 actions appeared on the market. I have a couple of the new FN actions. They are better built than any pre 64 I have handled. Pre 64’s show a lot of tool marks, and they were filed to fit. Parts don’t necessarily interchange, you have to fit them. This makes the assumption that your new part has enough material to file.

The new FN action has an improvement, that is the bolt shroud is now extended to cover the left receiver rail. While that will block gases going down the left, I have not seen anything blocking gases going down the firing pin shaft. Like every M70 built, wear your glasses because a pierced primer will vent right into your eye. I have come off the line with grease covering my shooting glasses from hot gases squirting down the firing pin shaft.

This FN action was one of the last to come out of New Haven, and it has the old style M70 trigger. That feature is now gone.

I prefer the claw extractor as I can open the action and roll a round into my hand. Actions with spring loaded ejectors will throw the case off the shooting bench. A properly designed claw will last forever.

I am unconvinced that a controlled round feed is “more” reliable in feed than a push feed. In fact, I think it is more difficult to get one to feed reliably. That extractor cut on the right side of the barrel will catch a bullet tip that wanders over there.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

The only "real" M70 in my mind is the pre-war model. Although the pre and post war guns are identical functionally, many finishing steps were omitted in the post war guns, similar to comparing a 1903 Springfield to a 1903-A3. A pre war gun is a beautiful example of the machinist's art, the post war guns more mass produced due to manufacturing techniques leaned in the war and higher wages.

 

[jkingrph]

Dad got me a Mod 70 featherweight in the spring of '63, via a sales contest, when I finished high school. I still have it , always will! The only other rifles I have that I like about the same are the 96 Swedish Mausers ane a Husqvarna Mauser Sporter, which is identical the the mod 96. I have a Rem 700 , early 70's vintage and I'll take my pre 64 Winchester any day.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The Viet Nam War put a hold on my hunting (at least for animals) for several years. In the early '70s I was needing a real deer rifle. The post-64 Winchester was out, and the Remington looked like someone had stamped in the checkering and poured bowling pin finish over it. I bought a Ruger M77 -- but kept my eye out for a pre-'64 Model 70 and finally got one.