Precision shooting: Single or two-stage trigger?

[Sebastian]

Hello everyone. I was hoping to get some insight and feedback on which trigger is better for precision shooting. Single-stage? Two-stage? What is your opinion and why?

I ask because I have read and watched videos that have seemed to lend credence that a two-stage is a preferred trigger for precision shooting. Yet I have also noticed that many precision rifles have single-stage triggers (I am thinking of many bolt action rifles here). Taking it to an extreme I was looking at, "rail guns" (6mm ppc purpose built benchrest bullseye machined contraptions) and what you see is a very, very light single-stage measured in as little as sub-ounce pull weights. I am sure most of you are aware of these but here is a cool little video:



So I guess it seems a bit conflicting...I could see validity in saying that a trigger with light pull weight and minimal movement by it's very nature should be better for precision shooting right? Less opportunity to move your rifle and shift point of impact right? Yet I so often see many people saying that a two-stage is better because it allows you to prime the trigger and then break the shot. But isn't that essentially a training issue? Am I thinking of this wrong? Is the pull weight paramount over either type of trigger instead?

I bring some of this up because I recently bought a budget minded LaRue MBT-2S trigger. I could have put it in my AR-15 or my AR308 which was already sporting a 1.75lb tunable single stage. So I got to thinking conceptually which would be preferable for precision shooting...and why? Some of my searching has yielded what I would consider marketing fluff moreso than good data.

I am still fairly new to some (maybe more than some) of this stuff and am hoping to get my first 5-shot sub-1/2 moa group soon with this budget AR308...so far the best I have accomplished is just under 3/4 moa. I feel like the single-stage is going to give me the best opportunity to get the groups I am trying to achieve. Regardless I've already swapped triggers and am in the process of trying the LaRue in the .308...now I just need to get these SST's squared away so I can head back to the range.

I would appreciate your input/thoughts. Thanks!

 

[taliv]

here's the net of it... it depends on what type of precision shooting, and the choice is largely driven by safety.

for benchrest, i imagine everyone you see on the line will have a single stage trigger, set with as low a weight as possible.

shooting the CMP National Match Course, which involves trying to hit a 6" circle from 600 yards 20 times in a row with a gas gun in a sling... requires a 4lb minimum trigger weight. a 3oz benchrest trigger would be very unsafe. so people innovated and created a 2 stage design that lets you take up 3 lbs in the first stage, then aim in carefully, and then have a 1 lb break so the gun doesn't move nearly as much as it would if you were trying to break 4 lbs in one stage.

for PRS type shooting, there aren't any governing body laws like CMP, so lots of people have what i consider unsafe triggers, and in fact, a shockingly high number of people were DQ'd at the PRS finale this month because of light triggers. However, a significant (but not sufficient, imho) mitigating factor there is that with a bolt gun, the rules state you're not supposed to close the bolt until you're looking at the target through your scope. inexperienced ROs let people get away with running the bolt and then moving too often...

for hunting, lots of guys want to have a live round loaded so they don't make noise running the bolt that might scare off game. that's not a factor for precision shooting but some people may only have the $ for one gun... so... it would be foolish to put a light single stage trigger on a hunting rifle just cause you sometimes use it for precision shooting. a heavier 2 stage would be safer

it would be even more foolish to have the gun you intend to use for self defense configured with a light trigger just so you can post 1/2moa groups on the internet.

 

[Walkalong]

taliv makes a great case for choosing one over the other.

All the rail guns (Like you pictured) I ever saw had single stage triggers. At the time I was shooting Benchrest they were almost all Jewel 2 ounce triggers. Same for the bag guns like mine. 2 ounce single stage triggers take practice not to shoot them accidentally.

But once you get used to them, you realize you can still jerk a 2 ounce trigger.

Not something you want to be running around with.

 

[Varminterror]

Same same as above - the more you’re driving the rifle manually, the more trigger you need to make sure it goes bang only when you want.

But one big trick - AR’s aren’t always reliable at low weights, and the Geissele NM HS 2 stage is about as good as it gets there - especially when you’re talking about a 4.5lb target for Service Rifle.

 

[Sebastian]

Thank you gentlemen for the thoughtful replies. Great response taliv, gives me some things to think about. Also, wow Walkalong that's a good looking rifle.

My initial reason for buying this rifle was to have a deer rifle (or so I told myself at the time). Truth be told I was going to buy a bolt-action and at the last minute decided to get a gas gun because I could utilize parts from some of my other rifles and liked the thought of that interchangeability. As I work up loads I have really been trying to achieve that "good for me" repeatable shot group so this rifle has never been in the field but that is a goal in the future (hence the SST's). I suppose in that respect the MBT-2S trigger I now have in it makes sense. I wonder if this .308 is suited for a lug-around deer rifle...I suppose I could still pick up a bolt action. Although it will likely spend most of it's life on a bench and with my limited budget I should just use what I have.

Varminterror: When you speak of AR's not always being reliable at low weights, I assume you mean the hammer spring/light primer strikes? Forgive my ignorance but if you could expand on this I would be grateful.

It's also interesting that the poll is almost 50/50.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I voted 2 stage only because of the type of rifles that I shoot.

 

[12Bravo20]

I have and use both depending on what the AR is used for. For HD, I use a GI trigger. For competitive shooting at closer ranges, a good aftermarket single stage. On my precision rifles that are shot mostly from a rest or bipod, I use a two stage trigger.

 

[Nature Boy]

it would be even more foolish to have the gun you intend to use for self defense configured with a light trigger just so you can post 1/2moa groups on the internet.

I would say the same applies for hunting rigs. I've never measured the Kelbly's trigger on my F Open rig, but it's VERY light. Not something I'm want to be packing in the field.

 

[taliv]

if you were able to get a reliable 2-3oz trigger in an AR 308, i imagine accidental bumpfiring would be an issue.

also note there are a bazillion mil-spec factory AR triggers wandering around out there after people upgraded them. i wouldn't recommend changing triggers every day, but if you wanted to throw the factory trigger back in during deer season or whatever and then run something lighter for bench shooting the rest of the year, that would be a low-cost option.

one other thing to consider... the safety. i don't trust safeties in bolt guns. never use them. don't even want them on my rifles. my "safety" is an open bolt (which doesn't work for everyone)
but ARs are entirely different matter and for me, the safety comes off as the gun comes up to the target and goes back on when moving it back to low ready. If you do choose to hunt with an AR and have good discipline with the safety, a lower trigger weight wouldn't be such a big deal.
my last advice on this topic would be to put your winter hunting gloves on and dry fire a bunch. make sure your trigger isn't so light that your gloves fire the gun before your finger can feel the trigger.

 

[Laphroaig]

I have two stage triggers on my service rifles that I use for competition, and single stage triggers on rifles I use for hunting. I like and am used to both.

Service rifle competitions have weight limits that are amenable to two stage triggers, generally 2 1/2 to 4 1/2 lbs. When you start talking weights less than that, often ounces, a two stage trigger is impracticable if not impossible to achieve.

 

[rbernie]

As an aside - it woukd seem to be virtually impossible to get a trigger on a semi-automatic rifle to be reliably safe under 2 pounds of pull weight, simply because all of the banging and commotion that occurs as the action automatically cycles. Bolt action guns can get away with a lighter trigger simply because the action movement is more controlled (and the result of an ND is limited to a single shot).

Even then, It’s hard to get a trigger pull less than 2 pounds on a rifle of any type that is also drop safe, i.e. the trigger will not release when the rifle is dropped or bumped hard. Bench guns may not need to be drop-safe. Rifles to be used in the field should absolutely should be drop-safe.

 

[Walkalong]

my "safety" is an open bolt (which doesn't work for everyone)

At Benchrest matches the bolts are no allowed in the rifles until the last second before you start firing. "Place bolts in rifles......commence firing". They are removed when the time is up. "Cease firing....remove bolts from rifles".

 

[someguy2800]

As an aside - it woukd seem to be virtually impossible to get a trigger on a semi-automatic rifle to be reliably safe under 2 pounds of pull weight, simply because all of the banging and commotion that occurs as the action automatically cycles. Bolt action guns can get away with a lighter trigger simply because the action movement is more controlled (and the result of an ND is limited to a single shot).

Even then, It’s hard to get a trigger pull less than 2 pounds on a rifle of any type that is also drop safe, i.e. the trigger will not release when the rifle is dropped or bumped hard. Bench guns may not need to be drop-safe. Rifles to be used in the field should absolutely should be drop-safe.

It also gets pretty easy to accidentally bump fire them if they are much less than 3 or 4 lbs.

 

[Sebastian]

As an aside - it woukd seem to be virtually impossible to get a trigger on a semi-automatic rifle to be reliably safe under 2 pounds of pull weight, simply because all of the banging and commotion that occurs as the action automatically cycles. Bolt action guns can get away with a lighter trigger simply because the action movement is more controlled (and the result of an ND is limited to a single shot).

Even then, It’s hard to get a trigger pull less than 2 pounds on a rifle of any type that is also drop safe, i.e. the trigger will not release when the rifle is dropped or bumped hard. Bench guns may not need to be drop-safe. Rifles to be used in the field should absolutely should be drop-safe.

Could you expand on this? I can say that my tunable single-stage is tested for safety when I tune it and it is 1.5-1.75 pounds. Maybe I didn't bang it around hard enough but I deliberately butt-stroke a concrete floor multiple times to verify the safety of my tune setup. I would hate to think it could let one go if I dropped it.

 

[Sebastian]

It also gets pretty easy to accidentally bump fire them if they are much less than 3 or 4 lbs.

Reminds me of this review I watched not too long ago // Skip to the 7:50 mark:



Maybe I'm odd but when I pull a trigger I pull rearward and break the shot and keep the trigger rearward until I am back on target and then reset the trigger and let another go. I shoot similarly with handguns as well. I suppose this would eliminate any of the potential for accidental bumpfiring and as of yet have not experienced this even with my short reset and light pull weight single-stage. (although now I kinda want to try it )

 

[Sebastian]

Lots of good replies. I will definitely keep in mind the swapping of triggers and see how the triggers works with gloves.

Good stuff

 

[someguy2800]

Reminds me of this review I watched not too long ago // Skip to the 7:50 mark:



Maybe I'm odd but when I pull a trigger I pull rearward and break the shot and keep the trigger rearward until I am back on target and then reset the trigger and let another go. I shoot similarly with handguns as well. I suppose this would eliminate any of the potential for accidental bumpfiring and as of yet have not experienced this even with my short reset and light pull weight single-stage. (although now I kinda want to try it )

I've done it several times with my 7.62x39 AR15. If I use a slow progressive increase in pressure on the trigger like I do with a bolt action I will bump fire it. I have to use a different more deliberate trigger technique squeezing with my hand and riding the reset to keep myself from doing this.

 

[rbernie]

Could you expand on this? I can say that my tunable single-stage is tested for safety when I tune it and it is 1.5-1.75 pounds. Maybe I didn't bang it around hard enough but I deliberately butt-stroke a concrete floor multiple times to verify the safety of my tune setup. I would hate to think it could let one go if I dropped it.

Light crisp single stage triggers need light springs and short sear engagements; one or the other is fine, but having both at the same time makes it hard to hold things together under impact.

I always drop test a field rifle multiple times before I declare it safe. I have seen sears that wiggle off under multiple impacts; it may not let go on the first thwack, but losing control of the hammer / striker on the third impact is still no bueno.

 

[Varminterror]

Varminterror: When you speak of AR's not always being reliable at low weights, I assume you mean the hammer spring/light primer strikes? Forgive my ignorance but if you could expand on this I would be grateful.

Reliability in ignition is typically difficult with super low weights. The leverage in the AR fire control group just isn’t designed to allow super light pull weights, so a shooter has to compromise a LOT to get down in weight.

And then there’s this:

if you were able to get a reliable 2-3oz trigger in an AR 308, i imagine accidental bumpfiring would be an issue.

It just gets too easy to double an AR-10 when you’re shooting a trigger under about 2lbs.

I haven’t felt an AR trigger which could be made reliable with a lighter trigger pull than the Geissele 2 stage which I thought was safe AND had a better trigger feel. I’d rather pull a 4 pound great trigger than a 1 pound gravel factory.

I don’t mind hunting with a light trigger, as long as the trigger is safe and the action hits hard enough to produce 100% reliable ignition. There are plenty of means to introduce safety. I’m more of the opinion - if a hunter isn’t familiar enough with their trigger to run it safely, they shouldn’t be hunting with it, regardless of weight.

 

[z7]

I would it want a really light trigger in a hunting rifle. “Really light” for me is below 2lbs

I saw an experienced and talented shooter have a negligent discharge on Saturday, he called himself out after he sent a round into the berm while running the bolt, he has a very light trigger

A giessele or similar, with. 1.5-2.5 lb stages is what I would want in a hybrid hunting and target semi auto

 

[Hookeye]

Used to work under microscopes all the time. Had a fine touch.
I thought 28 oz was kinda heavy and good for a deer gun.
Varmint stuff lighter.

Now my job is different, has me banging on parts, and repeated impact has me losing the touch.
A 28 oz trigger feel too light!
But after about 10 shots I'm cussing it being so heavy

 

[Hookeye]

Light crisp single stage triggers need light springs and short sear engagements; one or the other is fine, but having both at the same time makes it hard to hold things together under impact.

I always drop test a field rifle multiple times before I declare it safe. I have seen sears that wiggle off under multiple impacts; it may not let go on the first thwack, but losing control of the hammer / striker on the third impact is still no bueno.

Have seen some supposed smiths barely tap em and declare them "safe".
I bonk mine repeatedly and slam the bolts.....pretty brutal really.
Anything less is just asking for it IMHO.

Like Walker triggers just fine, but I change the springs. I seal the adjustments after my bash testing too.
Some go down to lighter than others, stack up of tolerances I reckon.

Too many think they can set a trigger for a specific weight and they're good to go.
You set them where they are safe............which might be at your desired pull weight, or not.

 

[cfullgraf]

I've done it several times with my 7.62x39 AR15. If I use a slow progressive increase in pressure on the trigger like I do with a bolt action I will bump fire it. I have to use a different more deliberate trigger technique squeezing with my hand and riding the reset to keep myself from doing this.

You can get an M1 Garand to double by milking the trigger, particularly when shooting off the bench.

I discovered 2 stage triggers shooting a Garand in Service Rifle competition and prefer them for the rifle shooting that I do. Even my prairie dog AR-15 has a two stage trigger in it.

When I switch to one of my bolt rifles that has a single stage trigger, I have to remember to "recalibrate" my brain for the different trigger pull.

But, I do not do any super precision rifle shooting such as Bench Rest or F-Class.

here's the net of it... it depends on what type of precision shooting, and the choice is largely driven by safety.

taliv's post #2 has some excellent information.

 

[fpgt72]

I can only answer for me, as I think we are all a little different and do best with different equipment.

The rifle I shoot best is one with a set trigger, a hairs breath will make the shot after the trigger has been set, and that is just the way I like it.

 

[taliv]

I’ve always been kinda impressed by set triggers from back in the day.