President vows to push immigration proposal

[longeyes]

Why_me:

I gave you some of the building blocks. To try to encapsulate American culture in a glib sentence or paragraph is a fool's errand. I think it is exemplified in the Founding Fathers and all the movers, shakers, builders, creators, renegades, and outlaws who followed them. You can see it in Lincoln, Thoreau, Twain, Edison, Patton, all the way down to Burt Rutan and Steve Jobs. No doubt you have your own list. Ask yourself what these people have in common and what in our society enables them.

 

[longeyes]

No one said NO assimilation is taking place. My point was that for a group such as illegal immigrants from Mexico assimilation is no longer automatic. It's a matter of critical mass, on the one hand, and social views on the other. There are many forces today that militate against the very concept of assimilation. I keep hearing about "diversity" but often strain mightily to understand what exactly these pundits are talking about other than a wider array of cuisines. Enlighten me.

 

[why_me]

It is a very difficult thing to do. Describing one culture in sufficient terms as to make it distinguisable from other cultures is very difficult.

If you cant distinguish it from other cultures why worry about it? This is america. It is a melting pot. There is nothing forcing you to accept the cultures of others. NO mandatory pinata requirements. I have yet to see siesta incorporated into any company rule books. Nobody in miami is forced to learn salsa dancing. Or smoke cigars.

Break it down.
Illegal Immigrants are a threat to our standard of living.

Any other argument smacks of racism. And that is where it comes full circle. John tanton is not primarily concerned about your wages. That is the public face of his organisation. He is interested in population control, interacial marriages, Eugenic breeding programsand "swarthy brown people".

Do you define swarthy brown people as a racist statement? I do.
Why must he found so many groups opposed to Immigration. Cant one do? No he wants the appearance of a large grassroots movement. If you sign that petition on the link posted it will come around and bite you in the a$$.
He will use the names on that petition to try and convince people that you agree with his other arguments

In his search for legitamacy he urged his members to join the Sierra club. Why?
As soon as he had enough (so he thought) He tried to take over the board and switch the sierra clubs agenda over to anti immigration.

Here are questions asked of john tanton. He replied but didnt answer any of them
March 8, 2002

Dr. Tanton:

I appreciate your taking the time to read and answer these questions. If you want to ask me to clarify any of them, I'll be at my desk all day today (334-956-8309).

How many anti-immigration organizations have you been involved in over the years and for how long?

What is your current role at FAIR?

What is your current role at US, Inc.? What is US, Inc." Is Roy Beck an employee of US, Inc.?

How many people would you say are members of NumbersUSA and ProEnglish: What does it take to be a member in terms of money? What is the readership of The Social Contract? (Since they are all part of US, Inc., I figure you are the one to ask about this.)

What is the relationship between NumbersUSA, The Social Contract Press, ProEnglish, Americans for Better Immigration, etc., and US, Inc.?

What are the major foundations/individuals that fund US, Inc.? Your 2000 tax return shows contributions from individuals/foundations in the amounts of $1,300,00 and $437,500 for example – would you be willing to comment on where this money comes from? Also, I understand that one foundation has come forward to fund NuumbersUSA's newly rented building on 6th Ave. in DC – can you tell me who or what that is?

Which anti-immigration organizations have you, or has US, Inc., provided funding for? I know that US, Inc., has given money in recent years to Voice of Citizens Together, California Coalition for Immigration Reform, ProjectUSA, FAIR, Americans for Better Immigration. Are there others funded by your organization?

How do you feel about having as your editor Dr. Wayne Lutton, a man who serves as Editorial Advisor to the white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens? (Just for your information, a recent posting on the Council's web site refers to Blacks and Homosexuals as "retrograde species.") Do you have any concerns about this organization?

Do you have any concerns about publishing articles in The Social Contract penned by people such as Dr. Virginia Abernethy, and Michael Masters of the Council of Conservative Citizens of James Lubinskas of American Renaissance
(FYI: Glenn Spencer just spoke to American Renaissance, an organization that is racist and focuses on eugenics). I guess what I am trying to get at is what are your views of these organizations?


What do you think of The Camp of the Saints? Many have said it is racist, which I assume you do not agree with, so I thought I should ask your opinion. Is it true that you were instrumental in bringing the book to American readers or is the story about Cordelia May Scaife correct in that regard?

Do you have any concerns about the anti-Hispanic comments that have been made over the years by Glenn Spencer and Barbara Coe? Both have referred to Mexicans as savages and other such unsavory terms – yet US, Inc. funds them.

Are these statements from your 1986 memo on FAIR still true of that organization and of the anti-immigration movement as such:

"Our financial growth has heavily based on a small number of major donors, but have now leveled off. We have found few new donors … ."

"We have spent some time, money and effort trying to build a membership for purposes of political validity and power, but this has not been a major emphasis."

There may be some problems with your tax forms, but since I don't know all of your funding sources I may be wrong about these discrepancies, so I feel I should ask you about this. It appears that several large contributions are not listed on your form 990 as required by law including: $25,000 from Swensrud, $25,000 from Scaife, and $15,000 from McConnell. Could you comment on this discrepancy?

What is the relationship between the Center for Immigration Studies and FAIR? In your 1986 memo, you suggest as part D6 that the anti-immigration movement must "continue to build the intellectual basis for immigration law reform." Is that what CIS was for? Mark Krikorian of CIS told me that his organization has nothing to do with FAIR and never did – is this true?

Are you involved in the campaign to get Zuckerman elected to the Sierra Club board? If so, how?

What is your view of Catholicism and immigration? In your 1986 memo, you posed the question about whether immigrants would bring with them a Mexican or European Catholicism – the latter being more casual. What does this mean?

Why did Linda Chavez, Walter Cronkite, and Frm. Senator Alan Simpson resign from FAIR?

What do you think of our current immigration – especially in regards to the countries of origin of most immigrants, legal and illegal? It would be nice to have an explicit statement of our views on current immigration policy and how they relate to racial issues, if at all.
Heidi Beirich
Southern Poverty Law Center

 

[why_me]

I gave you some of the building blocks. To try to encapsulate American culture in a glib sentence or paragraph is a fool's errand.

It doesnt have to be a glib sentence or paragraph. I have an answer ill post it after you do. Remeber i asked first. I already have formulated my answer i am waiting for yours.

For reference on assimilation

The Chinese American experience, with its trials and triumphs, comes to mind every December 17, the anniversary of the 1943 repeal by Congress of the Chinese Exclusion Act of May 6, 1882. With only a few exceptions, this law barred any Chinese from immigrating to the United States, and marked the first time U.S. immigration policy singled out citizens of a particular nation for wholesale discrimination. NOTE 2 This dark period in U.S. history was born out of the widely held belief that the Chinese were incapable of “assimilation†into American society. Nevertheless, despite more than 60 years of systematic disenfranchisement, Chinese continued to migrate to the United States because it remained a country where they could find employment and fulfill many of their dreams.
How many people on this board were forced to learn mandarin?

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Racism? You have to be kidding. I don't care what race people coming here are. If they are illegally entering the country, they need to be expelled.

 

[longeyes]

There is nothing forcing you to accept the cultures of others.

And that is where you are mistaken. Perhaps you need to expand your definition of coercion to include the myiad ways that "diversity" and "multculturalism" are being mandated. You might, for example, examine what it means to be a student in a typical public school in Southern California today; you're going to tell me that the environment of the school system has not been drastically and dramatically changed by the influx of illegal immigrants in the last decade?

As separate cultural enclaves continue to expand these enclaves will enforce their particular sets of cultural values. De facto we will become a balkanized nation or perhaps an array of nations. Maybe you are okay with that; a lot of us aren't.

You want to focus only on the economic. Fine. If you think that there is no correlation between social and cultural values and economic success, I think you are deluding yourself. There are and will be differences, and the same people will cry out that we need to equalize those differences through income redistribution and what amounts to expropriation of property and penalizing the prosperous.

 

[wingman]

"We are practicing La Reconquista in California." --1998, Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General, California

"I have proudly affirmed that the Mexican nation extends beyond the territory enclosed by its borders and that Mexican migrants are an important - a very important - part of." -- July 23, 1997 in Chicago, Mexican President Ernesto Zedillo.

"We are Mexicans that live in our territories and we are Mexicans that live in other territories. In reality, we are 120 million people that live together and are working together to construct a nation." June 16 2004, Chicago. President of Mexico Vicente Fox.

"Mexico is recovering the territories yielded to the United States by means of migratory tactics," August 15, 2002, WorldNetDaily, Elena Poniatowska, Mexican novelist and lecturer at Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Cornell.

 

[why_me]

I don't care what race people coming here are. If they are illegally entering the country, they need to be expelled.

I totally agree with that. John Tanton doesnt. He is really against just "those swarthy brown people". If the mexicans could come here legally he would still be against them. Is this what you want to stand for?

Who else does mr. John "eugenics" Tanton not want here? Who exactly can fulfill is purity of gene requirements?

 

[longeyes]

I asked you to describe american culture "in your own words"

These are my words. I gave you building blocks and I gave you examples of "Americans." You take it from here. To say that America is a "melting pot" and therefore it is just the sum total of everyone here and it can become anything and is constantly evolving, etc. says nothing, at least to me. I think you have bought into the myths of multiculturalism. Anyway, pass the garlic nan, if you don't mind.

 

[why_me]

No answer yet

And that is where you are mistaken. Perhaps you need to expand your definition of coercion to include the myiad ways that "diversity" and "multculturalism" are being mandated.

Would you rather we teach intolerance?

These are my words. I gave you building blocks and I gave you examples of "Americans."

I dont need building blocks. I would like an answer, a definitioin in your own words of american culture. You have failed to provide that.

Examples of Americans. How about Strom Thurmond, David Duke, Louis Farrakhan.
They are american leaders too. Do you subscribe to there vision of american culture. Most likely not.

What is your opinon. That has to come from you. Still waiting. Give me an answer and i will post mine, to the same question.

 

[wingman]

Amnesty vs. Border Control
by Congressman Tom Tancredo
Team America



12 Questions the White House Must Answer
About Bush's Temporary Worker Plan


President Bush announced in a meeting with Mexico's President Vicente Fox in November that he will give "high priority" in 2005 to his guest worker plan that will grant legal status to the four to six million Mexican nationals (and others) now working in the United States illegally. That proposal was first announced in January of 2004 as a set of "principles."

However, since it was never introduced in Congress as legislation, no details are known about the plan. The public needs answers to the many questions raised by the proposal. Among those questions are the following:

QUESTIONS ABOUT AMNESTY


1. The president says his plan does not offer amnesty to lawbreakers, but if an unlawful act is forgiven and not penalized, is that not the same as amnesty? Isn't it amnesty if people who entered our country illegally are not required to go home before applying for a work permit?
2. Why is it not reasonable to believe that offering a "legal route to employment" for people who entered the country illegally will only encourage millions more to follow the same path in the expectation that they, too, will eventually be offered legal status? Is The White House aware that the National Border Patrol Council, which represents rank and file Border Patrol agents, says the president's plan will produce another surge in illegal alien traffic?

NATIONAL SECURITY


3. The president says that his plan will free up the Border Patrol to catch drug smugglers and terrorists. In view of the very real terrorist threat facing our nation and the certainty that terrorists are well aware of how easy it is to cross our open borders, would it not be more sensible and much safer for the country to first make our borders secure and then experiment with new guest worker programs, rather than the other way around?
4. What about the 150,000 people coming across our borders each year from outside Mexico, hundreds of them from countries on the State Department's watch list of nations known to harbor terrorists? Why is border security taking a backseat to a temporary worker program?

JOBS


5. The president says his temporary worker plan will be limited to "jobs Americans won't do." But since willingness to do any job is always relative to the wages being offered for that job, isn't it true that millions of jobs will be lost by Americans to foreign labor willing to work at a lower wage? When an employer lowers the wage of a job so only a foreign worker will take the job, as is already happening in construction trades and many other occupations, how can anyone say this is not taking jobs away from Americans?
6. The president frequently describes his plan as one that "will match willing workers with willing employers." Since his plan puts no limits on the types of jobs to be included, isn't it likely that employers will find additional millions of "willing workers" to fill millions of jobs at lower wages?

WHAT IS A "TEMPORARY WORKER"?


7. The president says his plan will allow "temporary workers" to take jobs for a three year term, renewable to six years. If a worker signs up for the program to obtain legal employment and works six years, but then does not want to go home because he now has a wife and also three children born in the United States, will the plan require him to go home? If he returns home, what happens to his wife and children?
8. If the temporary worker is not required to go home after his term of employment expires, then isn't it more accurate to call the president's plan a new immigration program with built-in preference for immigrants from Mexico and Central America? If a "temporary worker" is allowed to file an application for citizenship and to remain in the United States after his temporary work permit expires, is this not really an immigration program and not a temporary worker program?

ENFORCEMENT POLICIES


9. The president says his plan will include stepped up enforcement of labor laws to punish employers who continue to hire illegal workers. But isn't it true that this same promise was made to Congress and the American people in 1986 and that promise was never kept?
10. Since current laws against hiring illegal workers are virtually unenforceable, what specific changes is the president proposing to curtail and penalize this employment practice? Will employers be required to verify a valid Social Security number (available to any legal worker) before offering employment? Will Social Security cards be made fraud-proof? Will illegal workers who use phony Social Security cards or other people's numbers be deported and not merely fired and allowed to seek a different job as is the case today?

11. The president says that offering a legal way to find work in the U.S. will bring an end to the border problems. But if our borders are not made truly secure, won't millions of desperate people continue to enter illegally way instead of waiting in line for a work permit?

COMPETENCE AND CAPABILITIES OF OUR ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES


12. If today's Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement cannot locate the 400,000 "absconders" who have already been ordered deported, including almost 100,000 criminal aliens, and if this enforcement agency can't intercept and deport the criminal aliens already incarcerated in our jails, nor the two million student, tourist, and other "visa overstays," why should anyone believe they will be willing and able to locate and deport an additional six to eight million "temporary workers" if these workers choose to stay when their permit expires?

 

[wolf]

of course the much posted "southern poverty law center" aka morris dees hate inc...is neither souther poverty (dees is very rich) has little to do with law and seems to just be the center of itself..talk about an opportunistic organization..there are many sites that are not SPLC cheerleaders..check em out

illegal immigration has become a very hot topic of late on just about every forum, chat room etc

it breaks down and brings logic. reason. tempers, name calling and real rage to the surface...

living in los angeles for over 40 years and seeing it "change" due to the influx of illegal aliens (immigrants come here to be part of this country...aliens just come here for the $$..they do not want to be americans)

would i feel the same way if a different third world nation(mexico can be argued to be "third world") were on our southern border...yes...no matter what the ethnic/racial makeup of that country

im angry at anyone who just crosses the border any border and goes to the head of the line and DEMANDS they be given everything a US citizen has in the way of rights & privilages..yes i am aware that people from canada, england etc are here illegally..(though not in the millions as is the case with mexico and soon to be a very close second-the countries of central america)..they should be deported .. no special cases

racist groups La raza, MAL DEF etc scream and yell when any steps or measures are taken to stop the flow of illegals in any way...they play the race card and want anyone who defies them to feel guilty at least...does not work well at wolf's den

proud supporter of vdare.com & american patrol (both groups have people of color that contribute to their causes)

wolf

 

[longeyes]

why_me:

I gave you some of the building blocks. To try to encapsulate American culture in a glib sentence or paragraph is a fool's errand. I think it is exemplified in the Founding Fathers and all the movers, shakers, builders, creators, renegades, and outlaws who followed them. You can see it in Lincoln, Thoreau, Twain, Edison, Patton, all the way down to Burt Rutan and Steve Jobs. No doubt you have your own list. Ask yourself what these people have in common and what in our society enables them.

So, as I said...

Is my America the America of David Duke & Strom Thurmond? Of course not. My America believes in the free pursuit of excellence, revels in idiosyncrasy, promotes individual liberty. It is color-blind and ethnicity-blind. Its people are united by the principles enunciated in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights.

Should we be tolerant? Yes, of everything but what militates against the radical principles that sustain our Republic. And through collective beliefs we are one American people. As the motto states: E pluribus unum.

 

[why_me]

Good answer.
I believe american culture is defined individually. Every person has there own view of it. Because american culture cannot be defined by any one set of standards. It is fluid and dynamic. It changes over time depending on enviroment and the people who live here.

Now to the follow up question.
What is it about mexican culture that threatens your definition of american culture?

 

[rick_reno]

At last - a workable solution from our elected protector of the 2nd Amendment.

 

[longeyes]

What is it about mexican culture that threatens your definition of american culture?

There is no reason that someone from Mexico cannot be a good American. Obviously, there are many here already. Again: assimilation. Those who wish to become American will embrace our core values.

This, however, has no bearing on the issue of illegal immigration, which is about legality and common sense.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

4) Issue driver's licenses only to citizens, or temporary licenses to foreign nationals who are here legally for a limited time and can prove it.

No need for temporary licenses. The United States is party to the UN treaty or agreement or whatever it is that provides for drivers license reciprocity among signatory nations. That includes just about every country in the world that has roads and vehicles. It requires a valid license from your home country, and a supplementary international drivers permit on a standard UN form that's written in about ten different languages. In the U.S. they are issued through all AAA offices.

With my home state license and the international permit, I can legally drive in Chile, Denmark, India, Russia, Ukraine, China, Australia, Greece, and a whole bunch of other countries I can't remember off-hand, or even spell correctly.

One more reason we should not be issuing drivers licenses to "undocumented" aliens. If they are here legally, they have a legal means of driving. But the UN permit is valid only if accompanied by a valid, current license from your home country, so it doesn't provide illegals the ID they seek. In fact, it demonstrates that they are foreign nationals and only here temporarily, and that's NOT what they want to appear to be.

 

[why_me]

One more reason we should not be issuing drivers licenses to "undocumented" aliens

Good point. I dont know if it would work. But DMV/DOT personnel could be a secondary front line for catching Illegals. At least for awhile, until the illegals caught on.

Employer raids would be a great start. We also need to stop the drop a baby/citizen program. I think you should show your here legally. At least one of the parents should. Many Illegals are waiting for there offspring to attain the age of 18 so they can petition for there parents to be legal.

 

[longeyes]

We are converging. Employer raids, sì. Stop public assistance, sì. Eliminate granting citizenship to kids born here of illegals, sì.

Expecting the DMV to do anything constructive is madness. In Oregon I saw a guy move through the driver's license process when he couldn't speak a word of English. Could he read American roadway signs? Doubtful. No one cared, it seemed. The burrocrats were too busy showing how "embracing" they were (and this, by the way, is a huge problem with the culture of American civil service: they are largely "soft Left.") Someone walking around the U.S. who can't put together two sentences of English is highly unlikely to be here legally (unless he/she is a tourist).

 

[ahenry]

What is it about mexican culture that threatens your definition of American culture?

It isn’t the Mexican culture that is a problem, it is the illegal alien culture that is a problem, and it just so happens that the overwhelming percentage of illegal aliens are Mexican.

• An illegal alien has a disrespect for his host nation. What an illegal alien does is no different than me walking into your house uninvited and sleeping in your bed for no reason other than it’s more comfortable than my own.

• An illegal alien has no respect for the law. An increasing number of illegal aliens actually are criminals, and I’m not referring to immigration laws.

• An illegal alien has no desire to become an American, he only desires a more affluent life, while maintaining his identity as a (insert nationality here, generally Mexican).

• An illegal alien has an extremely selfish attitude about things. After all, if a rule or law makes his life more difficult, ignore it. He would do whatever it takes to make his life more enjoyable, regardless of the problems or difficulties it imposes on others.

• An illegal alien expects others to accommodate him, rather than him attempting to accommodate others.

• An illegal alien passes those attitudes and that “culture†to his children. The children of illegal aliens that I have interacted with, to a person, are willing to bend or break the law if they personally decide it is in their best interest to do so.

I could go on, but those are really the main facets of the “culture†of illegal aliens that threaten the American culture. There isn’t a single thing about an illegal alien that causes me to want them to be in my country.

 

[longeyes]

Ahenry:

What you say persuades. However, you ignore the fact that illegal aliens, wherever they may arrive from, come from specific cultures. We can romanticize their grit for breaking away from the motherland in search of opportunity but we might want to ask ourselves whether or not they bring with them the values that made their countries merit escaping.

 

[mack69]

Re:

Not so simple solution I've stated before.....
Bring all our troops back from the sandbox and everywhere else and lock down our borders...North, south, east and west....allow no one in. At least that way they truly would be defending the US. Oh yeah....while doing that...let's get out of the UN and get the whole lot out of this country. mack

 

[why_me]

whether or not they bring with them the values

Can you qualify this statement?

 

[Selfdfenz]

"whether or not they bring with them the values"

why-me,
Can you qualify this statement?

Pleazzzzzze. Get a life.
You appear to believe asking the other thread writers questions that have been answered insufficiently by a 100 better authors is a winning tactic. I think it tedious. It's also not "carrying the field" in this discussion.
Playing the racist card is ....never mind.
I've read too many of your other posts to think these tactics worthy of you.

I'm in Texas. I'm pretty sure a family could come here from Mexico or another SA country and never learn English, never assimilate and do fine in most of our larger cities. They could and do hold jobs, drive, you name it. They don't have auto insurance, health insurance or any desire to obtain either. We have economies within economies, nations within our nation. Somehow it still manages to work but at some point me thinks it will collapse into something much more 3rd world and permanent.
"Taxes....we don't pay no stinkin taxes."

Given the Bush position on the matter, decision makers in the Dem Party have to be looking forward their political future. Sen. Clinton should have a big picture of W in her office so she can look at it everyday and say a little prayer of thanks to the man that will put her in the WH.

S-

 

[wingman]

Sen. Clinton should have a big picture of W in her office so she can look at it everyday and say a little prayer of thanks to the man that will put her in the WH.

Yes, and guess what her agenda will be, immigration.