Primers falling out

[Gadzooks Mike]

I've got one other idea, and it has to do with brass monkeys. A monkey was the plate with circular indentations bolted down on a ships deck that held the stacked cannon balls. Since brass expands and contracts much more than iron, now and then it would get so cold as to shrink the brass monkey and the cannon balls would fall out of the form. Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey. Anyway, brass being brass, were these rounds stored someplace where the temperature was really warm? Or really cold? Warm enough so that the primers just fell out when the brass expanded, or cold enough that they were pushed out when the brass contracted?

 

[rcmodel]

Good idea, but I doubt that had any effect.

The case is brass, but so is the primer cup.

So the expansion rate due to temperature changes would be about the same.

rc

 

[Sin City Shootist]

Gadzooks Mike, that's funny. I just had a customer here the other day and he told that same story, lol.

Here in Vegas we don't really have a cold problem in winter. Now summer, I end up dropping charge weight down because of the heat.

 

[Gadzooks Mike]

If primer cups are brass, they're certainly a different alloy than the shell or else they're plated, because they're quite different in color. Perhaps enough to have different expansion properties, but probably not. Oh well.

Sin City, you can say you don't have a cold problem, but I was stationed at Nellis for 5 years, and it does get cold in the desert at night during the winter!

 

[rcmodel]

All primers cups & anvils are made from some grade of cartridge brass.

Nowadays, almost every brand is nickle plated to prevent corrosion over the life of the primer.

rc

 

[Sin City Shootist]

I've been in Vegas 51 years. Trust me when I say it doesn't get cold enough to cause primers to fall out. Mid to upper 30's is our normal winter temp. The temp the day that the primer fell out was 68.

 

[murf]

on an earlier post you said the loose case's primer pocket measured .210". the primer diameter is also .210". there is no crush fit here and a distinct possibility the primer will just fall out on its own. suggest you measure the primer pocket diam. of a "good" case and compare.

murf

 

[Sin City Shootist]

Murf, I'm gonna pull the bullet, mark the case and reload it again and see what happens. This time I will use Wolf or Tula primers and see what happens. I think there is something weird going on with the Remington primers.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

To help find the problem, measure the primers and pockets before you load.

 

[Gadzooks Mike]

Trust me when I say it doesn't get cold enough to cause primers to fall out. Mid to upper 30's is our normal winter temp.

I do trust you that it doesn't get cold enough to cause primers to fall out. I just said it was cold out there in the winter at night. When I first brought up the temp idea, I wasn't strictly refering to outside natural temps. Anyway, seems like there is nothing to fit. They weren't loose when they went it, you said, and they weren't stored in a hot or cold place. I'll assume you've already ruled out someone playing a practical joke on you. Seriously, what's left?

 

[Sin City Shootist]

It could be the press trashing the primers. Like I said, its a new press and it doesn't have very many loads on it. My turret press(different press) trashed a bunch of primers till I found out the priming arm pin holes were drilled at an angle.

I went to put some new glass on this rifle last night and the rail was weaver style and the rings were picatinny so I won't be able to test the few loads till next weekend because I had to order new rails.

I'll get back to the thread once I get the rifle back up and running.

 

[W.E.G.]

Simple matter of eliminating your variables.

Try those primers in brass from another source.
If the primers don't fall out of the "another source" brass, then the brass that is giving you the problem is no good.
If the primers do fall out of the "another source" brass, then the primers are no good.

If none of the above, consult an exorcist.

 

[Sin City Shootist]

That's what I was going to do. Take the ones that failed and try Wolf/Tula primers in them and see what happens. I suppose I could toss the other glass back on the rifle and try them this weekend, just won't be shooting for accuracy.

 

[W.E.G.]

Don't just assume that the Russian primers are oversize.

I think the only thing you can assume about Russian primers lot-to-lot is that they are likely to be INCONSISTENT.

 

[gamestalker]

I've never had that happen, even with brass that had been loaded 15 times. I can't help but think that you grabbed a wrong primer, SR or SP, my Son did it so I know it can happen. Even if you use the wrong primer rod tip it will still seat the primer enough that it won't fall out, so its not that.

 

[Muttt]

I would use a pocket uniformer on all the new brass. That would take one thing out of the equation. When uniforming the pockets, you'll be able to tell if one is too large. And it will fix any that are too small. Then, the only thing that could be bad is the primers. Put the uniformer in a cordless drill ..... it takes 2 seconds per cartridge.

 

[Sin City Shootist]

I reloaded them again with the same primers. Nothing felt out of line when installing the new primers just the normal pressure to seat. I'm willing to bet that the press destroyed them while installing or the primer had a problem. I will let you know tomorrow.

 

[Sin City Shootist]

All the ones that were fix worked fine. I loaded them first in the mag well so they got hit with recoil a few times. So I'm down to bad primers or the press trashed them, and I'm leaning toward the press priming system.

 

[murf]

scs, if you can "feel" the primer seating, you have solved the problem. primers are usually not the problem. it's either the case or the equipment. be interesting to know if this is the exception to the rule. good luck with it.

murf

 

[fguffey]

And if he measures the inside diameter of the primer pocket, what tool is he going to use? A Dial caliper? the primer pocket is round, so I suggest a micrometer that measures something that is round,,, or !!!! a new primer, turn it over and push it in upside down 'CAREFULLY', use the primer as a gage, something like a go or no gage.



Call RCBS for help, tell them you are measuring one of their dies and the inside diameter of the die is too small, then they will ask "What are you using to measure the inside diameter with" and you will say I am using my dial caliper as an inside round hole micrometer, and they will say you can not do that.



There are all kinds of different go and no-go gages some are wire gages, some look like small pins and rods, I have ball micrometers and blind end hole micrometers.



F. Guffey

 

[Daniel Boone]

As I sit here going whooophineewhoopeewhoop - across my lips - I got to wonder who taught you people how to measure and machine.

The hole in the primer pocket would be checked with a go / no go plug gauge.
You cannot measure the diameter of a bore with the straight edge jaws of a caliper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go/no_go_gauge

My guess is that the factory uses a slight crimp when they manufacture their factor loads and that they do not put a slight crimp in the primer pocket in the brass that they manufacture for export.

We have had a lot of problems with the Remington crap lately - and buying a bag of new brass with issues does not surprise me.
I myself - I'm not a fan of turret presses and the turret press leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to accuracy. I came from the old school - where you do it once, do it right and move on.
There is no way for sure for this person to know how the primer felt as it was being pressed into the pocket - because it probably doesn't take 5 lbs of pressure to press the primer in the pocket. Personally - I wouldn't give a nickle for a turret press - but that is just my opinion.

I would say for you to take a couple of those rounds and put them in a single stage press and try them again with a new primer. Then if the primer falls out - measure the diameter of the primer.
Then again - if you do not have a micrometer that goes to the .00001 and if you do not know how to use a micrometer that goes to the .00001 it isn't going to do you any good anyways.

Probably your best bet is to pull all the bullets, dump all the powder, take the empties back to where you bought them and ask for a refund.

As I sit here , all crippled up from cleaning brass for the past several days.
I can't help but wonder what were the people in Eau Clare Wis, Twin Cities - Minneapolis Minn, Philadelphia PA, Salt Lake City - Utah, Lake City Mo doing in 1943 - 57 when they were making this brass for the military. And - would they have a job if they made the junk that the ammo manufacturers makes today.

 

[flashhole]

DB - why so down on turret presses? Maybe you can share some specific reasons for your dislike of turrets.

 

[Seedtick]

Then again - if you do not have a micrometer that goes to the .00001 and if you do not know how to use a micrometer that goes to the .00001 it isn't going to do you any good anyways.

Dang Mr. Boone, You just don't run into many mics that'll get that close.

That right there would shore nuff pick a nit.

Seedtick

 

[Sin City Shootist]

Wasn't using a turret. I was using a new Lee Classic cast single stage. The press is about 5 weeks old now.

 

[Daniel Boone]

I was off by one zero - I meant to say to the 10 thousandth of a inch.

A good mic - you can turn it over and match the lines to the numbers.

A go / no go gauge - is precision ground and designed to be stored in a pool of oil and is only used at a prescribed temperature such as 65* or 68*
I worked several years of tool and die and I had the different measuring devices at my disposal - other then my own hand tools.

On the other hand, I was cleaning some brass last night that was loaded new in 1943 and came across a batch of brass that was reloaded that the primers stuck up above the case.
I'm wondering if I will need to ream the primer pocket deeper or if the original primers were not as thick as the new ones.

We only use CCI primers - so I have not experienced many primers that just fell out with no good reason associated with them.

The reason why I am so down with Turret presses is because most new machinings are being made out of country and the stuff that is being made here - the quality just isn't there anymore. We keep hiring 12 young kids to replace one experienced machinist - and it might take 100 people - just to get one that stays and is worth something.

Too much production in todays world is CNC and we rely too heavily on the machine holding the tolerances to keep everything in alignment.
The older RCBS Rock Chucker presses were all made one at a time - on one machine and the tolerances were much tighter and the quality assurance was much better then what we have today - even with the CNC..
We got too many so called computer experts that just wants to sit on the step of the Mazak in the shop putting parts in the one end and pulling parts out of the other end.
They don't want to get their hands dirty and they spend more time texting on their phones and reading Hot Rod, hunting, fishing magazines and less time actually trying to learn their jobs.

Then it all boils down to one or two people who actually knows what they are doing, running the entire shop - while the other people walks around like mindless zombies - not really wanting to be there or putting forth their best effort.

That is one reason why our production is headed more and more towards China and other countries because the labor costs are cheaper and all people cares about today is the bottom line. How cheap can I buy it and not how good is it.