Problem with neck tension

[ballenbrowning]

Got a issue and I am needing a little help. I loaded up 40 rounds of 308 winchester the other day and everything seemed fine till I got to the bullet seating step. The amount of pressure it took to seat the bullets was all over the place. There was 20 nickel cases that seem to seat with what I would consider the correct amount of pressure, but the brass cases was varying. There was even 2 cases that you could push the bullet in by hand. I tried to resize those 2 cases and it didn't make a difference. I also tried a different 30 cal bullet and it was just as loose. I am using hornaday 150 gn bullets and rcbs dies from 1964. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Brian

 

[Varminterror]

Mixed brass, mixed firings I assume?

 

[troy fairweather]

Sand the expander ball some with fine grit sand paper.

 

[ballenbrowning]

Yes it's some once fired that I had bought. On the 2 worst cases the expander ball will slide in and out without even touching the sides. It acts like the die itself is not sizing the neck. Is that even possible.

 

[ballenbrowning]

I did also take the expander ball out of the die and then resize and it was still so loose that the expander ball would slide in and out with no resistance

 

[TimRB]

Yes it's some once fired that I had bought.

It's impossible to tell from your description, but it sounds like this might be range pick-up brass that someone has collected and sold to you. If that is the case, likely the seller actually has no idea how many times the brass has been fired. It's a foregone conclusion that it was fired in many different kinds of rifles.

In any event, loading mixed brass like that can be maddening. Easy for me to say, but I suggest throwing it all away and buying some factory-new brass or once-fired military brass from a reputable dealer.

Tim

 

[Ranger99]

It's impossible to tell from your description, but it sounds like this might be range pick-up brass that someone has collected and sold to you. If that is the case, likely the seller actually has no idea how many times the brass has been fired. It's a foregone conclusion that it was fired in many different kinds of rifles.

In any event, loading mixed brass like that can be maddening. Easy for me to say, but I suggest throwing it all away and buying some factory-new brass or once-fired military brass from a reputable dealer.

Tim

This ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

I've already been through this with 308
brass (regular) of unknown origin.
Trying all the tricks and such and small
base dies and blah blah didn't help anything.
Gather up the questionable brass and whack them with a hammer so the next guy doesn't
pull all his hair out. Put em with your scrap
brass and call it a lesson
Good Luck with your future loading

 

[Atavar]

It sounds to me like his die is not doing neck sizing at all. Sizing without the expander should result in an undersized neck.
I would suggest going back to basics and doing the die setup again from scratch. Double check the markings on the die to make sure you are using the correct die.
With the ram at the top of the stroke screw the die in until it touches the shell holder. Lower the ram and screw the die in another 1/4 turn. Lock the die down. Raise the ram and you should feel the press cam over at the top of the stroke.
Make sure you don’t have the decapping/expander assembly too low. You want the pin set to just barely expel the spent primer. 3/16” below the shell holder is about the most you want.
If that doesn’t help then perhaps a new/different full length sizing die.
Be aware that my rifle reloading knowledge could fit in a thimble.
Education is requested and appreciated.

 

[BBarn]

Sounds like range pick-up brass, which may or may not truly be once fired. The ones with no neck tension might have been neck-turned for use with a bushing die.

With "once fired" brass, you should generally expect some pieces to be unusable for a variety of reasons, and end up in scrap pile.

 

[MEHavey]

1. What manufacturer's dies are you using ? (BTW are they really 308? )
2. How are you setting up adjustment in the press ?

 

[greyling22]

If you cannot fix it with adjusting your die let me know. I have some new Winchester brass gathering dust.

 

[Atavar]

Ok guys, please explain to me how this could be the brass fault? If you cram a brass round fully in to a sizing die that has a neck bush with a .34 diameter how does that round come out with a neck size OD greater than .343?
With the thickness of the brass that will leave an ID of a touch less than .308 which should be recovered when you pull the expander out through the neck.
I’m not being facetious and I apologize if I sound snotty. What I really am is confused and I would really appreciate being educated.
My social skills are not great in person and even worse on the net. Thanks for being patient. I really want to understand this stuff.

 

[edwardware]

In a properly machined, mass-market die set, the FL neck sizing should be so tight that even the thinnest commercial brass is reduced then expanded by the ball.

You are experiencing:
- a bad FL die, with an oversized neck
- a modified FL die, with an honed neck
- modified brass, with turned necks
- or, something else, that you haven't told us yet.

 

[Atavar]

Thanks Ed. I didn’t consider cases with the neck turned to reduce wall thickness.
Even with that, as you said, a proper die should still size the neck to the point that the expander would be effective.

 

[JFrank]

Thanks Ed. I didn’t consider cases with the neck turned to reduce wall thickness.
Even with that, as you said, a proper die should still size the neck to the point that the expander would be effective.

Unlikely someone tossed away neck turned brass, If you disassemble your bushing type die please remove the bushing and quote the ( 3 digit number stamped on one side) that bushing should be about .002-.003 less then the neck OD of a LOADED round.

 

[lightman]

In a properly machined, mass-market die set, the FL neck sizing should be so tight that even the thinnest commercial brass is reduced then expanded by the ball.

You are experiencing:
- a bad FL die, with an oversized neck
- a modified FL die, with an honed neck
- modified brass, with turned necks
- or, something else, that you haven't told us yet.

I think your problem will be one of these. Have you used those dies on any other brass? Do you have any brass that you know is once fired by you? If so, how did it work? Do you know any other reloaders that you can borrow a die from just to try out?

Unlikely someone tossed away neck turned brass, If you disassemble your bushing type die please remove the bushing and quote the ( 3 digit number stamped on one side) that bushing should be about .002-.003 less then the neck OD of a LOADED round.

I don't think he is using using bushing dies. He does say RCBS dies from 1964.

 

[ballenbrowning]

I feel that it is probably the brass too. Because I ran all 40 rounds through the same die and some has good neck tension. I am for sure that it is 308 dies, because that was the first thing I checked. And I also made sure that I am caming over the press. I appreciate all the answers I got on this problem. Or it could be a mix of die and brass problem.

 

[ballenbrowning]

To answer a few more questions. It's a regular full length die. I am reloading this for a friend, and I don't own a 308 so this is the only brass I have or have loaded through these dies.

 

[243winxb]

Brass problem, Simple. Loading for friend or relatives, NEVER.

I seen a Win M70 30-06 blown up. Ammo loaded by guys friend. Remaining reloads showed excessive trim length of the range brass. Fired round was crimped in chamber. High pressure resulted.

Another- Relative gave me Fuji 30-06 fired factory brass to reload. Splits in shoulder area when fired as new factory ammo. Told him to go buy some ammo.

 

[JFrank]

Ok guys, please explain to me how this could be the brass fault? If you cram a brass round fully in to a sizing die that has a neck bush with a .34 diameter how does that round come out with a neck size OD greater than .343?
With the thickness of the brass that will leave an ID of a touch less than .308 which should be recovered when you pull the expander out through the neck.
I’m not being facetious and I apologize if I sound snotty. What I really am is confused and I would really appreciate being educated.
My social skills are not great in person and even worse on the net. Thanks for being patient. I really want to understand this stuff.

Please explain what a .34 neck bush is

 

[AJC1]

So 1. Measure the thickness of the neck. If your dealing with turned brass that is a key factor. 2. Run it up in your sizing die and let it dwell for a full minute. 3. Measure the outside diameter, if it changed your dealing with hard brass that is springing back. 4. Redneck anneal it with a torch and try again.

 

[Varminterror]

Yes it's some once fired that I had bought. On the 2 worst cases the expander ball will slide in and out without even touching the sides. It acts like the die itself is not sizing the neck. Is that even possible.

Yes, it is possible.

One of two things has to be true:

1) The neck thickness is too thin such the die neck doesn’t squeeze the OD down small enough to produce an ID sufficiently small to grip the bullet

or

2) The brass is work hardened to the point it springs back, and regardless of whether the die squishes the OD sufficiently to produce an ID small enough to grip the bullet while the brass is in the die, the brass springs back upon release and the ID grows back again.

Odds are, it’s #1 - just thin brass. This may require a neck bushing die to offer a small enough diameter to produce your target neck tension - which will then be overworking your other brands of brass.

The downside of mixed brass is that you will never have any control over neck tension, that’s why those of us shooting for accuracy and precision do not use mixed brass.

 

[Charlie98]

Because I ran all 40 rounds through the same die and some has good neck tension.

That's why I think it's the brass.... you did have some that sized and expanded properly. I load quite a bit of .308, and I segregate my headstamps because I know there are differences in brass dimensions, and particularly with commercial brass, which I more or less scrap (...that is, odd headstamps I don't normally load.) Further, and particularly with high pressure rifle cartridges like the .308, I do NOT use unknown brass... there are simply too many dangers; I use MY once-fired brass, or MY virgin brass. Have your friend spend the money and get either virgin brass, or a small lot of factory ammunition that can be fired and the brass harvested.

FWIW, I've had the very same problem you had with, of all things, .45 Colt brass. A friend of mine who worked at a gun range gave me a handful of .45 Colt range brass... about 5 different headstamps. None of it sized up the same as the rest of it, it was bizarre. I wound up keeping the RP brass, which behaved like my stash of RP brass, and scrapped the rest of it.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

3. Measure the outside diameter, if it changed your dealing with hard brass that is springing back.

2) The brass is work hardened to the point it springs back . . .

Bingo.

 

[FROGO207]

It could be a combination of larger neck opening in the die as well as some thin necked brass. Look at the headstamps, all the same ones acting similar? I agree here, it sounds like some of the brass has thin necks for whatever reason. I save mine and reform to 243 when range brass is wonky. I also anneal my necks every 3 reloads to better control neck tension. Trying to use problematic brass is a frustration no matter what.