Programmed to be anti-gun

[cskny]

The point is that the statistics are useful in dispelling the myth that anti gun people perpetuate that the old west was somehow an inherehntly violent place, and that allowing modern citizens to carry defensive arms would return us to a supposedly violent society.

Certainly one can't draw a direct correlation between the old west and modern America, but then if such statistical comparisons are invalid, then so too is the argument that modern concealed carry by citizens in the 21st century will turn them into brutish savages who have shootouts on mainstreet.

Really, I'm somewhat surprised I even have to point this out.



Justin, those statistics cannot accomplish the goal you're stating because they are void of the other variables required for a comparison. They cannot confirm or dispel ANYTHING, period. Yes, if both sides are trying to use them that way, both sides score 0 points!

And come on, you can't say:

"Certainly one can't draw a direct correlation between the old west and modern America..."

And then go on and try to make the correlation anyway! Just leave it with the statement: You CAN'T draw a direct correlation, period. You've already won the discussion at that point because you're correct, the rest of the sentences just weaken the point.

Frankly, I'm surprised that I have to point that out

 

[Skillet]

Originally posted By GunFighter123, post #13
It is being taught at EVERY public school in America

Kids can not go to school wearing a Ruger , Colt ,S&W shirt without being pulled out of class and haveing the parents bring them a more "appropriate" shirt

No more playing Cowboys and Indians , G.I. Joe , Cops & Robbers etc. etc. -- and just look how good America is because of it

I'm sixteen (i know what am I doing on this site talking about guns and such (I just like them))
I have a CZ-USA sticker on my car. I also have a CZ-USA shirt. it's a good thing almost nobody who isn't a gun owner knows what that shirt even means because I most certainly would be pulled out of class if my power tripping school dean arrived on the scene. But yet kids get away with wearing heineken shirts and chicks that are pretty much nude on them. but NO, NO guns...

I think we have a perfect example of a classical conditioned selective anti on this thread. While, yes, there is idiots that probably own guns, do we really use what your opinion of them as idiots a valid argument to take EVERYBODY's handguns away? While yes you did state several times that you do not want to take handguns away, you also stated that you don't think that they should give handguns out to just everyone, and that not every idiot should have one. first off, your opinion of whether someone is an idiot is just that. An OPINION. what if they did the same for cars? Oh, we can't sell this car to YOU, because we cannot sell cars to just ANYONE. doesn't that sound rather dumb?

I think you need to rethink your logic, Lopenzie, and really look into what others are telling you and the hard facts.

I am an example. I am a responsible gun owner (not legally, of course, my dad owns them) and I'm sixteen years old! some would consider that trouble, and trouble written all over it. But I was raised right, and from day one I was taught firearm safety. And I know what I am talking about. I have to deal with kids and teachers that are against guns ((un)educated to be against guns) every day.
So please don't just throw away my words because I'm sixteen years old. Just listen.

 

[ol' scratch]

I've lived in NY my whole live and I have never been in a situation or seen one where having a handgun would've been necessary. I don't have a problem with handguns other than most aren't very practical or worth the money. However I do have a problem with states that just pass them out to anyone. I don't want every random idiot who wants a handgun to be able to carry one. I sell firearms and I see people who can't even operate a bolt action rifle and they want to carry a handgun. Most people think you just pick one up and start shooting the bullets will go where your hand is pointing. Most people I've met whose only interest in guns are handguns, want their world to be like one of the stupid video games they live in. You want to protect your home get a shotgun, otherwise if you feel the need to carry a gun on you, you probably are hanging around places you shouldn't be or one of those people who hopes for an excuse to use it. Hell, I've even met people who own a handgun and don't even know the caliber bullet it fires.

Lopezni, you live in New York. I am glad a shotgun fits your purposes in New York. There are times when a handgun is more useful.

My Grandfather carries a handgun on his property because he lives near the Ypsilanti, Ann Arbor Michigan area. Recently, they have had a rise in crime. This crime is spilling into rural areas that are not typically as protected. Also, as the economy went south in the area, people have started dumping dogs in the rural area he lives in. On two occations, there has been cause to shoot dogs that were menacing. Grandpa is getting older and can't handle a shotgun as he once could. When he goes outside, he carries a pistol for defense and has used it do dispatch one dog-a pit bull that was obviously intent on doing him harm.

The other dog, an unknown breed, tried to attack my uncle while he was cutting wood. If he had relied on a shotgun, he couldn't have pulled it into action as quickly as his pistol.

When I was younger in Northern Michigan, there was an issue with feral dogs. They attacked a number of people. I used to like to fish in some pretty out-of-the-way places. I had to fight a dog off with a fly rod ONCE. After that, I made sure I was carrying my dad's .357.

Different tools for different situations. Don't assume that handguns don't have a purpose. If they didn't, the police wouldn't need to carry them.

 

[metalhd9034]

It's a NY thing definitely.

 

[lions]

In fact, most criminals probably wouldn't even look at a rifle or shotgun because it is not gangster enough

What a well thought out and reasonable method of deciding which guns you think I should use.

If you are so opposed to handguns why do you sell them in your store? Apparently it doesn't take much for you to push your beliefs aside. I almost find it hard to believe that you truly dislike a type of firearm because it is "gangster enough".

 

[ironvic]

Lopenzi: Turn in your FFL!

 

[ol' scratch]

again, I never said people handguns should be taken away. I definitely never abdicated using a rifle for home defense. however as of yesterday I am now abdicating that people who think HI-point carbines are cool and are good rifles be put in camps

You mean concentration camps? Your posts just get better and better. And to answer an earlier post concerning 'gangster' firearms and what people would use in crime. You mentioned that criminals wouldn't use shotguns or bolt actions. Let me remind you that there have been crimes committed using both. As a matter-of-fact, The Firearms Act of 1934 has a provision concerning shotguns.

 

[whalerman]

I commend all who have posted on this thread. I'm not sure how you've been able to keep civil, but you've done it.

Things started off with Mr Lopezni asking a question about living in NY and how that could influence one being "programmed" to be anti gun. I grew up in NY, then had the good fortune to live in Texas for 20 years, returning to NY when my parents needed some help. I work in law enforcement, so I'm familiar with what I see as cause and effect issues regarding handgun licensing. I understand Mr Lopezni's views, but agree with few of them. The handgun laws we have in NY are designed to discourage citizens from attempting to obtain handgun licenses. Because of that, only a few can navigate the system, which makes people ignorant of the many aspects involved. They don't know the pleasures of handgun target shooting, or hunting, let alone the advantages of using one for defense. This ignorance, and I do not use this term to downgrade the good people of NY, has been going on for a couple generations now. A dealer cannot even let a person touch a handgun until they have undergone FBI fingerprint checks, personal interviews, reference checks, year long delays, all subject to the ultimate whim of the local authority. Is this about crime? Clearly not. Why shouldn't a father be able to teach a son or daughter about handguns before it is time to be on their own? But you better not, not in NY.

Mr Lopenzi has, in my opinion, indeed been programmed by an atmosphere where gun ignorance has been taught at an early age. NY is a fine example. The people who question it have learned to keep quiet.

 

[lykoris]

I thought the title was interesting, social conditioning of a populace to a certain mindset...only to read over the past 6 pages the most successful deflection/hijack by lopezni in post three.

I really have to take my hat off to you lopezni for such a successful job, from views of the wild wild west, mall ninjas, JFK assassination. WOW, you really know how to stir the pot.

And to reply to the question of the OP rather than feed a troll I would say that is how all of Western Europe is literally programmed through TV, newspapers, radio, magazines.

Firearms ownership is part of a culture and with any culture can be gradually altered given enough time.

I had a very interesting conversation today with a friend of my mother-in-law who was Anti with all the typical arguments from MSM. When I pointed out errors she finally said she was anti and that was that, no way of changing her mind even if her arguments are incorrect.

I find it interesting how sub-conscious exposure to anti-firearm media can become so deeply ingrained that people are anti without even understanding why they are anti.

Program the voting majority of the people to be anti-gun and you'll have no trouble passing firearms legislation.

My point of view as a european.

 

[Deanimator]

You mentioned that criminals wouldn't use shotguns or bolt actions. Let me remind you that there have been crimes committed using both.

Maybe he doesn't consider the murder of Medgar Evers by Byron de la Beckwith a CRIME. We KNOW that de la Beckwith used an M1917 "Enfield" to shoot Evers. From Wikipedia:

On June 12, 1963, Evers pulled into his driveway after just returning from a meeting with NAACP lawyers. Emerging from his car and carrying NAACP T-shirts that read "Jim Crow Must Go," Evers was struck in the back with a bullet fired from an Enfield 1917 .303 rifle that ricocheted into his Jackson, Mississippi home

Note: M1917s are in .30-06. P-14s are in .303. Lee-Enfields are in .303.

Apparently Lopezni doesn't consider that a criminal act.

 

[Isher]

ol' scratch -

Mucho thanks.

Gonna need some time to absorb this case law.

That being said, I'm more than a little suspicious

Of "law" which delimits free speech

According to one's age, sex, social or economic standing, etc..

It smacks to me of the infamous redlining

Of certain neighborhoods, racial and/or economic levels by

The mortgage and insurance outfits

Brought up to a supposedly Constitutional level.


isher

 

[Hunt480]

Mr Lopenzi has, in my opinion, indeed been programmed by an atmosphere where gun ignorance has been taught at an early age. NY is a fine example. The people who question it have learned to keep quiet.

Just think this is the mind set of a firearms dealer in NY...We all know the nation has been being programmed ANTI by all the major TV networks for years with OPRAH and the like.
Then again people being unable to think for themselves and beleiving everything they see and hear on TV seems to be worse than ever now.Maybe thats another thread?

 

[Geno]

lopezni:

You seem to be correct about any common fool possessing a handgun and not knowing how the Hades to use it. Witness this article in which just such a moron got his fool-@$$ kilt-dead!! And don't even get me started about defending one's self with a handgun, because you'll just end up getting it taken away and used against you. Oh that this poor, dumb criminal would have listened.

Geno

Link: http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/22837686/detail.html

Police: Man Disarms, Shoots Gunman
1 Gunman Fatally Shot; Police Looking For 2 Others

POSTED: Sunday, March 14, 2010
UPDATED: 5:47 pm EDT March 14, 2010

7130 MIDDLEBELT ROAD, ROMULUS, Mich. -- A couple unknowingly walked into an armed robbery in progress Saturday and ended up fighting back, and killing, a gunman, Romulus police said.

Police said three black men wearing ski masks walked into the Super Y Market on Middlebelt Road at about 9:30 p.m. with guns drawn.

A gunman confronted a man and a woman entering the store and ended up getting into a tussle with the man, which resulted in the man disarming him and shooting him twice, police said.

The gunman was killed.

Police said the two other gunman fled out the store's back door and got into a 2004 black Pontiac Grand Prix with the license plate CCR0052.

Police are searching for the two gunmen who got away.

Police said they consider the gunmen armed and dangerous and are asking the public to report any tips to 734-941-8400.

 

[whalerman]

Mr Hunt480, that's why I would tell folks like you to be thankful for the place you live. You're a Georgian. Here in NY, we love our government so much, we've completely ruined our economy and the future for our kids. The only real answer is to work for a government agency or a school district. For two generations now, the very best of our youth have left for other parts of the country. Now we are left with people who believe all that is told to them, whether by MSM or by their local and state political hacks. It isn't a pretty sight. Good people, yes. But a rotted foundation.

Do I have to ask the question of whether this kind of sheep thinking carries over to gun issues? I doubt it. Best regards to Georgia.

 

[Hunt480]

Mr Hunt480, that's why I would tell folks like you to be thankful for the place you live. You're a Georgian.

Amen.I hear ya screamin

 

[mokin]

I remember the revelation of "anti" programing (not thinking)durring a discussion with my sister-in-law 15 or so years ago. She grew up, I believe, in Kansas City. Until she became aquainted with my family, she associated handguns with either police or crimminals. It is remarkable how much lopezni's post echos her sentiments.

 

[armoredman]

Skillet, my kind of youngster!

 

[Skillet]

haha thanks

 

[blaisenguns]

Oswald didn't do it. Have you ever shot a 6.5 Carcano, it is the worst rifle ever made. The Italians at the beginning of production thought 6.5mm was .268. So the bullets keyholed coming out of the barrel. The ones after that weren't much better. So, you have to believe he got lucky and got a good one and happened to be the greatest sniper ever. Mob did it.

Ok, solely for the sake of argument lets say that is true. Kennedy was still not shot with a shotgun or pistol, no matter who did it.

actually I obtained a 4.0 in American History 1776-1865 and I currently have a 4.0 in American History 1865 to present. I can send you my transcripts if you like.

Good for you. I got As in two semesters of Spainish, and dont speak a word of it.

Please do yourself a favor and stop talking, lopezni.

 

[Babarsac]

I just LOVE it when anti-gunners try to play to the imaginary bigotry of the diverse community of gun owners.

As a liberal gun owner up here in Northern VA last year I took my girlfriend (who's black) and my room-mate (who's Jewish) out to the range. They all had a great time and are now looking into becoming gun owners themselves. For the icing on the cake I drove them there in my car which has my NRA sticker right next to my Quaker school bumper sticker. I swear I saw a few heads pop in the rear-view mirror.

That being said I grew up in a very liberal family but was never taught that guns were evil.

I guess I must be using a different dictionary because when I look up liberal in Webster's I don't see a single mention of firearms.

 

[hnk45acp]

I've lived in NY for 40 years and was almost programmed to be anti-gun, I thought about it and decided not to be. You can do it too, it's easy use the thing on top of your neck and work it out. I've never "needed" a gun either, I've also never had to plead the 5th but I'm glad it's there for me.

 

[gesshots]

Cogradulations on obtaining your CCW. Now more then ever is the time to deprogram
others by example. Good luck.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

 

[GEM]

People have run simulations of the Kennedy shooting with the rifle in question and could make the shots. Boring, nutty arguments don't make the case.

As I mentioned above, another NY person who is programmed.

 

[Bohemus]

I'm sixteen (i know what am I doing on this site talking about guns and such (I just like them))
I have a CZ-USA sticker on my car. I also have a CZ-USA shirt. it's a good thing almost nobody who isn't a gun owner knows what that shirt even means because I most certainly would be pulled out of class if my power tripping school dean arrived on the scene. But yet kids get away with wearing heineken shirts and chicks that are pretty much nude on them. but NO, NO guns...

I think we have a perfect example of a classical conditioned selective anti on this thread. While, yes, there is idiots that probably own guns, do we really use what your opinion of them as idiots a valid argument to take EVERYBODY's handguns away? While yes you did state several times that you do not want to take handguns away, you also stated that you don't think that they should give handguns out to just everyone, and that not every idiot should have one. first off, your opinion of whether someone is an idiot is just that. An OPINION. what if they did the same for cars? Oh, we can't sell this car to YOU, because we cannot sell cars to just ANYONE. doesn't that sound rather dumb?

I think you need to rethink your logic, Lopenzie, and really look into what others are telling you and the hard facts.

I am an example. I am a responsible gun owner (not legally, of course, my dad owns them) and I'm sixteen years old! some would consider that trouble, and trouble written all over it. But I was raised right, and from day one I was taught firearm safety. And I know what I am talking about. I have to deal with kids and teachers that are against guns ((un)educated to be against guns) every day.
So please don't just throw away my words because I'm sixteen years old. Just listen.

Interesting about the shirt, I know guy who, when he was 16, carrier .357 S&W revolver and stored his .22lr rifle in rectors office because he had shooting trainings right after school. Schoolmaster was fine with it because he was bringing his medals and trophys to school..

 

[hso]

We've done about all the good we're going to do here and have started to wander off for lack of focus so it's about time to close this one.