Progressive Presses: Red, Green, Orange, Red again, Blue, any color I missed

[Jenrick]

All right after my previous thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=433395 I've decided that I need a progressive. As the title of this thread indicates, I'm now looking at what brand to go with. I've looked at Lee, RCBS, Lyman, Hornady, and Dillon. Am I missing anybody?

Currently I need decent amounts of .38 spl, 9mm, .45 ACP, and 5.56. My current shooting volume is about 2-300 rds of each caliber every week, so between 800-1k rounds per month of each.

Ideally I'd like production rates to be about 500 rounds an hour so I can do my reloading in a couple of hours every month. Obviously with 4 calibers, and one being a rifle cartridge, the time and cost of changing calibers needs to be factored in. I'd prefer to not have to mess with doing any operation off the press, basically drop a fresh fired casing into one end, and not touch it again (I know for 5.56 that may be asking a bit much).

So with all that, my ideal setup would be:

Auto indexing press with case and bullet feed. Changing out requires only changing the die head, the shell plate, and the primer size if need be and possibly tweaking the cartridge or bullet feeder. All of the change out should be accomplished without any real tools, and no need for any real adjustments.

I can live with a manual indexing press if the production rate is still high, and cartridge and bullets can be feed by hand as well.

I know this is going to be a big investment and I've decided that rather then spending on a new gun with my tax refund I'm going to get a press and what I need for it. I'd prefer to keep the initial cost under $600 (though I suppose a Dillon 1500 still is doable with my refund check...). Overall I'm probably not going to ever shoot much more then I do (unless I go pro, and then it's a whole different ball of wax) so too much press is almost as bad as not enough press.

I really appreciated everyone's time and knowledge on my other thread, and am looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

-Jenrick

 

[bobotech]

LOL Don't do a Dillion 1050. They are awesome for mass production but you really don't want to know just how expensive it is for caliber conversions.

All I know is that the price for a caliber conversion is obscene. But you get what you pay for and that is the best of the best when it comes to manual progressives.

 

[prickett]

I think for the price quoted, you'll be hard pressed to find anything that can do 600 rnds per hr. I have a RCBS 2000 and can do about half that many in an hour. I'd think the Dillion 650 would be your best bet (don't know its price off hand)

 

[Rembrandt]

Dillon XL650 w/case feeder would be the ticket.....unfortunately it exceeds your price range.

 

[RustyFN]

Just my opinion but if the 1050 was that good it would come with a warranty. The 650 and LNL will meet you production of 500 per hour, not sure about the RCBS.
Rusty

 

[bobotech]

I think the reason why Dillion doesn't officially warranty the 1050 is that it is mainly used by professional reloaders legally reselling their ammo. For example, I would not be surprised to find out that HSM uses 1050s unless they are using powered reloading equipment.

Most places won't warranty equipment used for line production work in the same way that they would warranty hobby use equipment.

 

[TAB]

I was debating between the 650 and the 1050, after I got on a 1050, it was a no brainer.

 

[dmazur]

You might consider the 550B. With it's manual indexing, it can handle bottleneck brass as a "break out" operation at the first stage. This at least gives you the opportunity to wipe off excess lube and check length in a Wilson gauge before proceeding. With carbide dies for pistol, it's fast.

 

[redintex]

If you feel that you have to have auto-indexing and case feeding, go with the 650. I have a 550b and can easily keep up with the volume that I need, shooting everything from .380 to .500 in handgun, and .223, 30-06, 45-70 and a few others in rifle. A good friend has a 550 with the case feeder, and it is nice; however, for frequent changes, I will stick to my 550 without the case feeder. If you are going to be changing calibers a lot, I would suggest the 550b. If you stay with one caliber for a while, the 650 would be more your speed. I definitely would not recommend the 1050 unless you are needing LARGE volume on a consistent basis. You can comfortably load 300-400 rounds per hour with the 550b. I have done as much as 500, but there is not much need for that kind of speed, and that is normally only on things like .45 ACP that I load the bulk of. A 550 will probably fit the bill just fine, or a 650 if you really need casefeeding/auto indexing.

My .02,
redintex

 

[Mike Kerr]

Your numbers don't really add up (or multiply up) as the case may be; but in any case it sounds like you have a 50K rounds per year ammo requirement. You are not going to fulfill that requirement in a couple of hours a month but your systematic approach to the problem will soon reveal that to you for yourself - so Im not trying to needle you. I'm trying to shorten your process.

1. You will spend 4 to 5 hours a month minimum including change outs, component buying, changing your set up procedures several times etc. it is unavoidable

2.That 4 to 5 hours per month does not include the beginning learning curve that we all endure and for that point alone I think you want a Dillon 550.

3. Either the Dillon 550 or the Dillon 650 along with the Hornady LnL will have the shortest most obtainable technical learning curve. A Dillon 1050 is beautiful, much more complex and not even close to your financial start up goal.

6 By the time you include caliber changes and related costs (conversions, dies, etc. etc.) only the 550 comes in under (or near) your budget. Both the 650 and Hornady LnL with their case feeders and 4 caliber conversions are well above your start up cost goal.

5. A 550 is set up in such a way that the cyclical rate is very high anyway even though it has manual advance. Its the easiest of any to correct mistakes on(very important for a newbie). Within a few months you will be able to exceed 500 rounds an hour if you want to - If you add the case feeder you might well hit 700 rds per hr.

6. Based on your shooting numbers you are a "shooter" not a reloading tinkerer so go with what you can learn fast on - get the ammo produced and then at the end of a year or so review and reconsider as needed.

The Lee and RCBS equipment is not really what you want for 50K rounds a year. I speak from first hand experience with Lee: Load Master's Pro 1000's , turrets etc. as well as RCBS' - they darn sure have a viable place in the market but not 50k per year for most people. My reloading life has been so much simpler since I went with Dillon's - I think yours might also.

Regards,

 

[BigJakeJ1s]

By the time you include caliber changes and related costs (conversions, dies, etc. etc.) only the 550 comes in under (or near) your budget. Both the 650 and Hornady LnL with their case feeders and 4 caliber conversions are well above your start up cost goal.

If a 550 w/o case feeder is acceptable, then a LNL w/o case feeder for the same price (less with conversions) is even better (auto-indexing & 5 stations vs manual indexing & 4 stations).

Get the case feeder later.

Andy

 

[Jenrick]

Mike Kerr: I believe what might have led my numbers not working out, was the couple of hours a month statement. I actually meant a couple of hours every weekend. And yes, I'm far more a shooter then a loader looking for the perfect load. I'm a cartridge assembler rather then a reloader most of the time. I take known quantities of components and put them together rather then experimenting. I've got a load that works, and don't mess around with trying to find one that works better.

Hmm so far it appears as though the two camps are Dillon and Hornady. No votes or experience with others?

To those who have progressives, how important is a auto indexing? I can see the advantage of one less step to mess with, but I can also see that it's not a very big deal either.

-Jenrick

 

[Claude Clay]

blue 550 or red LNL
have both and each is great.
dillion a quite a bit faster for pistol loading; equal for 223 and 30-30. LNL easier /faster to change calibers and to make corrections in progress on the base plate.

 

[warnerwh]

As much as ammo as you need you should get at least the Dillon 650 with the brass feeder minimum. It may cost a bit more up front but it will also save quite a bit of time. Even with this two hours a weekend is pushing it unless you're good at it.

500 rounds an hour isn't easy. I never achieved it with my XL650 however I never tried to. 350-400 at best. Auto indexing is a necessity of you are concerned about high production figures.

 

[Mike Kerr]

Jennrick wrote:

" I actually meant a couple of hours every weekend. And yes, I'm far more a shooter then a loader looking for the perfect load. I'm a cartridge assembler"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jenrick: I surmised both the per week and assembler parts. I am truly trying to help you NOT trumpet my favorite product. Heck the 650 and 1050 are both cooler than the 550 but the 550 has a "workhorse" get it done" "mechanical ease" "reasonably low cost" thats hard to duplicate for a NEWBIE. Plus there is awsome on line support from Dillon and on brianenos.com for a new reloader.

Like I mentioned the Hornady is viable; and one subsequent poster says slightly cheaper. I have less than an hour around a LnL but I liked it. It can work.

I mentioned the RCBS and Lee Loadmaster as less than ideal for 50K rounds per year - The Load Master can hit the numbers when its up and running but "on press priming" can be or is problematic in many cases; and you can have some very frustrating experiences if you push it. The RCBS looks really cool but I know it to be slower (but reliable) .

Why don't you go to brianenos.com and check out the reloading forums. I believe you could glean a lot from what is there, and its being posted by "shooters" who shoot a lot. Finally read what BE himself has written about "auto indexing" - the 550 - the 650 and so forth. He is a nationally recognized shooter who has written at least one NRA reloading manual as well as his own book on shooting.

BTW it will take 4 to 5 hours a week minimum the first year. It will either be spent reloading or learning/fixing the equipment. Hope its reloading.

Good Luck,

Regards

 

[Hairballusmaximus]

Just to give you a heads up, the horny LNL shellplates are almost impossible to get right now.

Hairball


P.S. I have the LNL and love it, but have never used a Dillon. You probably will have to tinker and fuss with the LNL, I know I did, to make it run perfect. I have at max rate without the case feeder, been able to hit 800+ rounds an hour. Now this was with a 5 gal bucket of cases and having 5 primer tubes to cut down on refilling time. I average 300-400 an hour due to still making mistakes and not wanting a "mistake" to make into the ammo box.

I would do a search on the LNL shellplate issues some folks here have had, me included, and make sure its something you are willing to deal with in the event you have some issues too.

Hairball

 

[James Thomson]

I would have to say the Dillon 550 is much better for your budget and it's the most popular Progressive press in America. I have both the 550 and
650 and they are both great presses. The 650 is kind of a poor man's 1050. The 550 will crank out a boat load of ammo and it's easy to use and much more forgiving when something goes wrong.

 

[WmCC]

A large, stout Pro 2000 resides on this bench. I previously owned and used both a 550 and 650 for many years and my rate of production on them, as well as the 2000, has probably averaged between 100 and 300 rds per hour. They will operate much faster!!! However, I do not desire, or need, to load at a higher rate. Of greater importance to me is the speed and ease of cartridge "changeovers" due to the requirement to load nine (9) rifle and eleven (11) handgun cartidges. Even with dedicated heads and powder measures on the other presses, NOTHING ON THE MARKET comes close to the green press in changeover speed and ease. Another factor, my previous progressives, which I liked, seemed to need frequent (small) replacement parts which has not been an issue with the much simpler RCBS unit.

Save one or two bad primers, I have had NO Load hiccups or failures of any kind in 41 years of reloading/ shooting and I will do my best to continue that pursuit. Over the past 5 to 10 years I have seen more and more squib loads and FTF/FTE issues as well as two destryed handguns suffered by shooters who either loaded, or borrowed ammo which was loaded, on progressives... A high rate of speed and or interruptions while reloading can have dire consequences.

All of the presses mentioned are very good tools. Regardless of your choice, I encourage every person reading these threads to consider purchasing and using both a lock-out die for handgun cartridges and a powder check die for rifle cartridges to supplement your normal (visual) powder level check. One double charge of a fast or medium powder can result in damage(s) that would pay for a press and more.

 

[jgh4445]

Dillon 550.

 

[CZ223]

Dillon 550B

A 550 will produce about 500 rounds per hour of handgun ammo once you get used to it. Once you come up with a routine for loading the 223 you probably be able to turnout 300 rounds or so per hour. Get plenty of extra primer tubes and fill them in advance.

 

[lgbloader]

I have to say, a 550B would be what I would purchase. I guess it depends on how much time you have to reload. Maybe a Lee Classic Turret could work as well. Rusty says he can pump out about 150 - 200 rounds in a hour. caliber changes are done in a twist and snap, literally.

The 550b is about 2-3 times faster though. I can change a caliber in about 5 minutes on the 550b.

there you have it, Mate.

LGB

 

[1911user]

Auto index becomes important when you add a case feeder. Until then, auto or manual index doesn't make much of a speed difference.

I'm also a fan (and user) of the Dillon 550 press. You can reduce the total caliber change over time by simply loading larger batches of the same caliber. Buy more brass then you don't have to change the press configuration nearly as often.

 

[redintex]

I definitely agree with 1911user. Without the case feeder, it really is not that big of a deal.

 

[Borg]

One thing you are all not telling him,,, the case feeder for the 550 won't work with bottle neck cartridges,,, 223.
That leaves just the 650 and the L&L Hornady.
And with the price differencial and the free bullets,, the Hornady looks to be in his price range, with the bushings being cheaper than the conversion kits of the Dillon.
Which ever way you go, both are good machines.

 

[Jenrick]

Alright after doing a lot of reading from all of you folks, as well as some suggested links I've decided on a Dillon 550.

The biggest reason, is as several people have noted, without a case feeder manual indexing isn't a big deal. Secondly the time spent setting up and tuning a 550 is going to be less then some of the less expensive brands, Lee specifically. Third at the moment a 550 is cheaper everywhere I've looked then any other comparable press, and everyone beside's Lee and Hornady is more expensive to start with.

One of my concerns was the press having only 4 stations. After a bit of pondering I realised it shouldn't be a problem. Since I currently don't bother to crimp pistol rounds, I can install a powder check die in between the powder drop and bullet seating. For 5.56 rounds my powder load is almost a full case, so no chance of a double charge, and it's full enough I should be able to see if there is powder it in the cartridge without a problem.

I appreciate everyone's information and opinions on the issue. Now it's time to just wait quietly for my refund check

-Jenrick