Project Appleseed AQT

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Doc7

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Hello,

On an Appleseed AQT course of fire, the 5 ring for the standing and sitting targets is higher above the black bottom of the target than it is for the prone targets. (same as any time you have targets of varying sizes at the same distance, a 6” target l bullseye is 3” above the black, but a 3” target bullseye is only 1 1/2” above the black)

Do you adjust your sights accordingly between the varying stages? Shooting higher on the standing and sitting stage than on the prone stages?

I didn’t when I got a Rifleman a few years back but now I am thinking about it (too much).
 
A97B0B9D-196E-4552-B150-8A70C0F24EF6.png Just for fun I will show you the shooting the inspired me to go down this path. I am real excited to have a scoped 22 back in my stable so that I was able to return my Marlin 60 to Iron sighted “trainer” status.

The first photo is the rifle of course. The second photo is my first set of targets before I adjusted my tech sights. My last target is after I moved 3 clicks left and 2 clicks down. I have since adjusted the sights to be one more click down, and that is the “zero” in my dope card now for this (50’) Target. As you can see it should now be zeroed for the bottom of the “V” in the prone target, and my dope clicks should make it be zeroed at the “V” for the larger targets at 50’ or also the 25 Meter version of the same.

Ironically enough, I now see that Appleseed is selling AQT targets that all have the same aiming point (a 4 MOa square centered on the V) wit the silhouette outlines around it. This totally eliminates any of this doping for a 6 o’clock hold. Not sure what they are using at the actual shoots these days. Obviously if it’s the 4 MOA squares at 25M, all I should have to do from my 50’ zero is come up 1 click and leave it there all day.

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Forgive me, but I don't understand why you have notes taken on how many clicks to change for different stages. The Appleseed shoot is from a fixed position and a fixed distance, so the POA should be exactly the same as your POI, right? You just have to aim at the correct spot and not move/flinch (easier said than done). I'm not being a smartalec, I truly want to know.

I've got a scoped .22 that I've tuned some and found the right ammo, so I'm looking at going to a Project Appleseed shoot and trying to earn my rifleman badge too. I know, I'm cheating using a scoped .22 rather than open sights, but it's what I have and my rifle does't have open sights (at least not a front post).
 
Forgive me, but I don't understand why you have notes taken on how many clicks to change for different stages. The Appleseed shoot is from a fixed position and a fixed distance, so the POA should be exactly the same as your POI, right? You just have to aim at the correct spot and not move/flinch (easier said than done). I'm not being a smartalec, I truly want to know.

I've got a scoped .22 that I've tuned some and found the right ammo, so I'm looking at going to a Project Appleseed shoot and trying to earn my rifleman badge too. I know, I'm cheating using a scoped .22 rather than open sights, but it's what I have and my rifle does't have open sights (at least not a front post).

Depends on where you are aiming at. If you 6 O'clock hold on the prone (bottom, and smallest) targets, you do well. With the same sight settings, shooting 6 O'clock on the standing (top, and biggest) target, you would hit the very bottom of the black, with a lower score. I shoot center of mass, it's how I was trained, so that's what I do... I made Rifleman on my 3rd target.

The AQT can also be shot at realistic ranges, too, so if you actually want to plan for that event (or reality) you will need to work up dope to adjust your sights.
 
Forgive me, but I don't understand why you have notes taken on how many clicks to change for different stages. The Appleseed shoot is from a fixed position and a fixed distance, so the POA should be exactly the same as your POI, right? You just have to aim at the correct spot and not move/flinch (easier said than done). I'm not being a smartalec, I truly want to know.

I've got a scoped .22 that I've tuned some and found the right ammo, so I'm looking at going to a Project Appleseed shoot and trying to earn my rifleman badge too. I know, I'm cheating using a scoped .22 rather than open sights, but it's what I have and my rifle does't have open sights (at least not a front post).

The next poster nailed it. With iron sights vs a scope, your POI/POA are more different (pumpkin on a post sighting technique).


What I did neglect to consider, however, is that the trajectory of my rifle probably has another 1/4” or even more rise from 17 yards (50’) to 25M. So my clicks is probably not accurate and might require a click or two backed off at 25M vs what I wrote down. I’ll seek to prove this at my next session with the rifle.
 
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Also, for what it’s worth, I scored a rifleman with a scoped 22 with no training and no sling. Iron sights I saw significanf progress in a two day course, doubling my score and earning my patch. I feel I would have learned a lot less (and felt overly confident in my abilities) if I had used a scoped rifle for the course.
 
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Do you adjust your sights accordingly between the varying stages? Shooting higher on the standing and sitting stage than on the prone stages?

It's a minor concern, but you could probably pick up a few points by either adjusting your sights slightly between stages, or using a "pumpkin on a post" hold for stages 3 and 4 and "center of mass" hold for stages 1 & 2.
 
I will also mention that ultimately part of being a "rifleman" is knowing your own equipment and how to adjust it. You see what the problem is clearly enough. The tools you need to fix the problem are all contained in the "Inches, Minutes, and Clicks" point of instruction you should have received as part of the weekend. I'd grab a ruler, measure how much higher you want to hit on various stages, convert to minutes and clicks, and voila - you've got an answer. What you've got written down looks like a start on that, but I think the "IMC" discipline is worthwhile to avoid confusion.

I'd also find a way to mark your zero so you don't get lost clicking back and forth between stages.
 
It's a minor concern, but you could probably pick up a few points by either adjusting your sights slightly between stages, or using a "pumpkin on a post" hold for stages 3 and 4 and "center of mass" hold for stages 1 & 2.


Thanks. I think this is what I should do (just hold COM-ish for the large targets and 6-oclock for the smaller targets). I will give this a try. Probably makes more sense than adjusting sights all day long for targets at the same range.

I will confirm at the range, but I believe there is a natural advantage to the 22LR standard velocity trajectory when switching from the 50 ft AQT to the 25 yard AQT. The 50 ft has about a 0.59” square as the sight in target so a 6oclock hold has you about 0.30” high (corresponding to the center on the smallest prone targets). The 25 yard AQT has a 1” square so 0.5” high.

From 17 yards (50’) to 25, the 22 should rise about another 0.33”, for a total of 0.63” above 6oclock hold. I suspect that this (0.13” differential from the 0.5” goal) is close enough or better for how good I can hold. This might mean there is no sight adjustment required at all to switch back and forth from “large” 25 yard targets to “small” 50 foot targets. If anything, I would drop my dope sheet one click from what I wrote down last night.


I will also mention that ultimately part of being a "rifleman" is knowing your own equipment and how to adjust it. You see what the problem is clearly enough. The tools you need to fix the problem are all contained in the "Inches, Minutes, and Clicks" point of instruction you should have received as part of the weekend. I'd grab a ruler, measure how much higher you want to hit on various stages, convert to minutes and clicks, and voila - you've got an answer. What you've got written down looks like a start on that, but I think the "IMC" discipline is worthwhile to avoid confusion.

I'd also find a way to mark your zero so you don't get lost clicking back and forth between stages.

Interesting fact about Tech Sights, and inches/minutes/clicks. The TSM200 sold for the Marlin has adjustments of 5/8 MOA (5/8” at 100 yardS). The Ruger 10/22 tech sights adjust in 1MOA increments. The Appleseed instructor argued with me on this point at the course (they are by far more used to 10/22s than tube fed 60s), even when I showed him the instructions, and gladly enough, shooting proved it out. Who knows why Tech Sights decided to do this. In the end, barrel length and rear sight location for sight radius will all have an impact on the adjustments also so each rifleman must prove out MOA vs Clicks for his own rifle.
 
I think I fired my first day of the Appleseed with an open-sighted 10/22, and did OK. I'm 6'2" and the 10/22 is a little small for me, particularly when trying to sling up for prone shooting. I switched to my AR-15 the second day and didn't have any problems. I'm not a big fan of the 10/22, although I'll acknowledge it's serviceability and popularity, I'd much prefer a Marlin or other rifle. After I got back, I did get a set of TechSights for my 10/22, and now it's my daughter's rifle.

Scoped or otherwise, the important thing is to go to an Appleseed. You can always have another go at it with something else the next time. I'd love to shoot my Garand next time...
 
I would not take Tech Sights estimates as gospel. I haven't precisely determined how much 1 click of elevation adjustment on my Tech Sight TS 200 rear sight mounted on my Ruger 10/22 carbine subtends at 25 yards but I am quite sure it is a bit less than 1/4" (1 MOA). But as you said, this adjustment will depend on sight radius. The newer Marlin 60s have barrels only 1/2" longer than the Ruger 10/22 with carbine length barrel, but I believe older ones before the 1980s or so had barrels several inches longer. And the Tech sights might mount at a different location on the receiver for the Marlin 60 than they do for the Ruger 10/22. And the magnitude of a one-click adjustment can even vary with ammo.

As for the Appleseed AQTs, I have shot at two 2 day events this year and around 12-14 AQTs all told. I have never seen an AQT target with the 1" black sighting square superimposed on the center of the silhouettes nor do I see them listed on the Project Appleseed store website. Are you sure that photo was not simply a demonstration of what the results of a 4 MOA level of shooter/rifle/ammo accuracy correspond to on an AQT with scaled D targets? The Appleseed non-KD events are generally set up at a 25 meter (not 25 yard) range unless using an indoor range limited to 25 yards. So I would zero your rifle and sights for 25 meters, unless you know to do otherwise. If you get your sights set up to consistently put 5 rounds into a 1" square at 25 meters slung up prone, I would call it good.

As you know, the scaled targets used by both the Army and Project Appleseed are scaled down versions of the "D" or "dog" silhouette targets used for known distance qualifications. The D targets are 26" wide and 19" tall. In known distance Appleseed AQTs or the Army full distance AQT this same target is set at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards. The D target silhouette corresponds to the black portion of the silhouette containing the 5 and 4 scoring areas of the reduced targets. As for how to adjust sights, I have always used a center of mass hold. These days, my eyes usually require me to use an optic anyway, and with a scope a COM sight picture is the only reasonable option. With iron sights, I can certainly see the advantage of a 6 o'clock hold. But the disadvantage I have always seen with that sight picture is it depends on the size of the bull at a given range and does not translate well to different size bullseyes at different ranges, which seems to be what you are wrestling with. If you really do prefer a 6 o'clock hold, I would zero your sights to use it on the smallest, 400 yard scaled silhouettes, then use a higher hold for the larger silhouettes. You probably can use nearly the same hold for both the Stage 3 rapid fire prone, and the Stage 4 slow fire prone, but you will definitely need to use a hold-over for the 100 and 200 scaled targets.

I would most definitely not attempt to adjust your sights between stages. Some shoot bosses will run the AQTs at a very rapid pace such that as soon as "cease fire" is called on one stage, and the line is cleared, the prep period for the next stage begins. And some times the prep period is so short that between "cease fire" on one stage and the end of prep for the next will allow you just enough time to prep magazines, sling up, and find your NPOA before the "load" or "fire" command is given. In that type of case, you simply won't have time to mess with sights.

Another issue is what position on the silhouette you chose to be your intended point of impact. Some AQTs are scored on a "hits count" basis where any hit within or touching the black counts as a "hit" whether it is in the "5" scoring zone or the "4" scoring zone. A hit that does not touch the black in the "3" scoring zone does not count. Some shoot bosses will invoke the "thirty caliber rule". Since Project Appleseed shoots were initially commonly shot with 30.06 Garands (and sometimes still are) and a .30 caliber hole is a little bigger than a .223-.225" diameter hole, a hole that just barely misses the higher scoring area will be ruled as hitting it so as to make the scoring caliber independent. But some bosses will not invoke this rule, at least if they feel you should not need it, and especially if everyone is shooting 22LR. If you have square or round bull the decision is easy, you make your intended POI at the exact center. But if they are using 0,3,4,5 scoring, the decision is a bit harder with the irregular shape of the silhouettes. If you want to maximize your chances of getting a hit on the 5-point scoring area, you may not want to make your intended POI at the center of the "V" scoring ring. If you look at the center of that "V" ring, it is much closer the the bottom of the 5-point zone than it is the top or the sides of it. It is even a bit closer to the shortest distance to the "shoulder" portion of that 5-point zone. So I will usually aim to try to hit near the top of the V ring circle on a 0,3,4,5 point silhouette, or right around the level that corresponds to the outside edges of the shoulders of a uniformly black D target. But you gain more leeway in windage if you sight lower, so this might depend in part on the orientation of your "wobble zone" and whether it is oriented more vertically or more horizontally.
 
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You’re saying all the things I’ve seen on the targets, including the windage allowance toward the lower part of the 5 zones.

I know I shot rifleman with iron sights my first weekend without adjusting sights between stages so I probably am just over thinking it. I will go ahead and practice a few times with a slightly different hold for the larger targets with my sights set for the stage 3 and 4 prones.

As for the Appleseed AQTs, I have shot at two 2 day events this year and around 12-14 AQTs all told. I have never seen an AQT target with the 1" black sighting square superimposed on the center of the silhouettes nor do I see them listed on the Project Appleseed store website. Are you sure that photo was not simply a demonstration of what the results of a 4 MOA level of shooter/rifle/ammo accuracy correspond to on an AQT with scaled D targets?

As you know, the scaled targets used by both the Army and Project Appleseed are scaled down versions of the "D" or "dog" silhouette targets used for known distance qualifications. The D targets are 26" wide and 19" tall. In known distance Appleseed AQTs or the Army full distance AQT this same target is set at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards. The D target silhouette corresponds to the black portion of the silhouette containing the 5 and 4 scoring areas of the reduced targets. As for how to adjust sights, I have always used a center of mass hold. These days, my eyes usually require me to use an optic anyway, and with a scope a COM sight picture is the only reasonable option. With iron sights, I can certainly see the advantage of a 6 o'clock hold. But the disadvantage I have always seen with that sight picture is it depends on the size of the bull at a given range and does not translate well to different size bullseyes at different ranges, which seems to be what you are wrestling with. If you really do prefer a 6 o'clock hold, I would zero your sights to use it on the smallest, 400 yard scaled silhouettes, then use a higher hold for the larger silhouettes. You probably can use nearly the same hold for both the Stage 3 rapid fire prone, and the Stage 4 slow fire prone, but you will definitely need to use a hold-over for the 100 and 200 .

Here is a link to the 4 MOA Target from Fred himself:
https://fredsm14stocks.com/The-Riflemans-4MOA-Quick-n-Dirty-QD-AQT-Qty-of-50-AQT09.htm
 
Thanks for the link. Perhaps it will be different for you since I assume your event will be a lot closer to Ramseur, NC than mine have been, but I would not count on seeing that AQT target at your Project Appleseed shoot. It does demonstrate quite clearly that you can shoot to a 4 MOA level of accuracy or better (since most Appleseeds are shot at 25 m) and still give up a lot of points on the AQT. There is a significant portion of that less-than 4 MOA square (at 25 m) that is outside the 5 point scoring zone on the Stage 3 rapid-fire prone 300 yard reduced targets, and on the Stage 4 slow-fire prone, 400 yard-scaled targets (where dropped points count double), there is a not inconsequential portion of the square that even misses the 4-point zone.
 
I got to shoot an Appleseed a few months ago using a scoped Ruger 10/22. I aimed for bulls eye and adjusted very little. Those were the AQT targets we used.
Day 1 was at 25m, lots of instructions, sighting in, and and only 1 Rifleman patch out of 23 shooters. Day 2 was delayed due to rain and when it cleared, they decided we were shooting at 100m due to the wet field conditions. Talk about intimidation. After sighting in again, and more AQTs, 8 Rifleman patches. It's much harder than you think it is. I would recommend it to anyone who enjoys shooting.
 
I got to shoot an Appleseed a few months ago using a scoped Ruger 10/22. I aimed for bulls eye and adjusted very little. Those were the AQT targets we used.
Day 1 was at 25m, lots of instructions, sighting in, and and only 1 Rifleman patch out of 23 shooters. Day 2 was delayed due to rain and when it cleared, they decided we were shooting at 100m due to the wet field conditions. Talk about intimidation. After sighting in again, and more AQTs, 8 Rifleman patches. It's much harder than you think it is. I would recommend it to anyone who enjoys shooting.

A scoped rifle requires no adjustment for AQT as you simply would sight to the center of the target, which remains the center of the target whether the target is 4” or 1.5” across.

An iron sighted rifle, as you are probably aware (so this is for the uneducated reader) instead is sighted to hit either at the top of the post or above it by some amount.

If you sight in the iron sights so that when you hold at the bottom edge of the 1” “Sight In Target” and it hits the center of the target, that means your bullet is 1/2” high. This would be a bullseye on the Stage 2 targets but too high on Stage 4 targets and too low on Stage 1 targets. This is why scoped applications have little bearing on these issues and need no adjustments but iron sighted rifles need to aim high/low accordingly based on the bullseye location relative to the bottom edge of the target.

For me, I plan to hold center of mass for Stage 1 and 2 targets from now on and bottom edge of 3 and 4. The bigger targets give a lot more leeway to do this.

As I said earlier I made Rifleman on my first AQT with a scoped 22. I really recommend that folks take an iron sighted rifle, as it gives you invaluable experience on sight alignment/sight picture and as people have written, you learn a lot more from your misses than from your hits.

At my Appleseed, a gentleman cleared the first target we shot and then shot an almost perfect score each AQT with a 16X nightforce scope on a custom 10/22. It was a beautiful rifle. But I didn’t feel that he likely learned much from the shoot. But, as they say, you pays your money and makes your choices.
 
At my Appleseed, a gentleman cleared the first target we shot and then shot an almost perfect score each AQT with a 16X nightforce scope on a custom 10/22. It was a beautiful rifle. But I didn’t feel that he likely learned much from the shoot. But, as they say, you pays your money and makes your choices.

I think that's a bit disingenuous... and not very realistic; but as you say, he got what he came for, not what he should have been there for.

Out of about 20 people on my 2-day Appleseed, I was the only one who shot Rifleman. I did it with an AR15 using the skill set I learned in the Army... so that wasn't a huge leap, but what I did learn was proper use of a sling, body position, and breathing... something I didn't learn in the Army.

Me on the left getting my patch. My AR is at the far right of the photo...

Mecq0Tul.jpg
 
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Unless you are already a quite experienced shooter, there are many things you are going to have to try to learn shooting at Appleseed events. Sight alignment is one of them, but there are many others. These include proper stance/body position in three different positions, proper use of a sling, figuring out the most efficient way to transition from standing to sitting and from standing to prone, making smooth and quick magazine changes, acquiring natural point of aim, breath control, trigger control, follow-through, and calling your shots. So if you need to use a scope or choose to do so, I don't think you are shortchanging yourself too much.

As for myself, I would like to be able to shoot with iron sights, but deterioration of vision with age is a fact of life, and I simply can't focus well enough on the front sight post to align it precisely enough for the accuracy required on the small 300 and 400 yard scaled silhouettes. I wish I could since I have shot a high score of 236 on the AQT, which would have been good for a "distinguished" rocker had I been using open sights. Perhaps once I have mastered all those other elements, I will give the iron sights a try, but for now I have plenty of other fundamentals to try to master apart from sight alignment.
 
I took up shooting rifle a year ago. I, like pblanc, cannot see the front sight due to the dreaded presbyopia (may it skip over you). So I scope it: 2-7x32. But in the Appleseed event I attended, they did request we not set our scopes to max. I ran mine a 3x. The rest was all about Natural Point of Aim, positioning, breathing, timing, and trigger finger work. I was happy getting my Rifleman patch at 100m. I plan on going back. Distinguished with scope is a score of 240 (my next goal) or higher, iron sights is 230.
 
59B31DE0-512C-453B-8755-CCEA56361E18.jpeg 155D3D18-3905-443B-916B-5001DC78606E.jpeg 6FEE3F26-EC08-4495-8A2C-BDE7B003D97E.jpeg I went out and shot now that I finally got 4 bricks of ammo since using my last the night I made this post. (I will be ordering a brick a month for next couple years!)

I am very happy with the results. Especially that first stage 3 target!!!! This was at 82 feet ( 25m)instead of the 50’ targets I previously used. Man- I really had trouble focusing on the front sight with my current glasses prescription and thought I couldn’t see the stage 4 targets but clearly I did ok.

I didn’t use the 30 cal rule and think this might have been my personal best if I had!

I did not make a single adjustment to the sights for this, aimed high on stage 1 and 2, and did not adjust from the 50’ after looking at my average sighter shots.
 
I can say I've already learned something that has made a SIGNIFICANT difference in my shooting. After watching YouTube videos (don't laugh), I got frustrated a little bit while at the range. I decided to try the "shooter's cadence" that I saw on one of the videos and my groups shrank CONSIDERABLY. I couldn't believe the difference. I had a couple of groups that every single round stayed on a 1" shoot-n-see target repair dot at 27 yards and the only difference was me following the shooter's cadence in my head at the same rhythm as I had seen on the video. This was using the exact same rifle I would use at the Appleseed shoot. I'm actually trying to get the rifle ready for the shoot so that I will have no excuses. My scope is a relatively cheap 3-9 power Bushnell on top of a tweaked 10/22 with a suppressor. I look forward to attending an Appleseed Project shoot when I get time.

All of this in preparation to taking my son one day. I wanna know what to expect when I take him.
 
The key to shooting in cadence is to have a solid natural point of aim. But then, it can be said that achieving a solid NPOA is the key to all target shooting. If you have a good NPOA, your sights will come back on target after breaking a shot, taking a breath, and exhaling.

But one of the tricky aspects of shooting the AQT is that the rapid fire timed stages on which you really need to shoot in cadence to get all of your shots off require a transition from standing to sitting or standing to prone, so there is little time to acquire your NPOA after the transition. It would be much easier if you could start in position. But in my experience, it is absolutely critical to take the time to acquire your NPOA after the transition and to reposition and reacquire your NPOA when shifting to a different silhouette. Obviously, the more you can practice this, the quicker it becomes.
 
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