Pro's & Con's of Carrying your Reloads

[kidcoltoutlaw]

if you carry a 357 SIG i think you should carry handloads.every time i load and unload the bullet seats deeper in the case.i don't mean just a little either.one very good way to blow you own head off.i use slow burning powder it fills the case and the bullet can not seat deeper.shoot the factor loads that get seated deeper and the guy beside you will sue you because of the gun parts in his face.

 

[tex_n_cal]

I read Masaad Ayoob's original article in Handloader claiming that he had seen attorneys try to make an issue out of use of handloaded ammo. He claimed it was a nightmare in court.

Ayoob did allow that if you loaded down, like say loading a .44 mag to 1200 fps or so, you could actually turn the argument to advantage, by saying the gun was too hard to control with hot loads, and you felt it was powerful enough as is.

Remember, you shoot bad guys to stop serious crimes, not to make social statements. Your only aim is to stop the crime. Whether or not he dies is a non-issue at the moment you shoot.

On the flip side of the coin, Sheriff Jim Wilson has reportedly done a study, and could find no case where it actually became an issue. I didn't read his article, though, but I did read Ayoob's.

As a practical matter, though, for defensive use, do you want reused cases, or brand new? It doesn't much matter in a revolver, but it does in the auto. Reloaded cases, even those carefully loaded, can have burrs or unoticed problems that harm reliability at the worst possible time.

I do keep Federal Hydra-Shoks in my full size .45's. They are known to work well, and are reliable and accurate, so I don't think I'm giving up anything. My Colt Defender so far seems to run best with my handloads, so if I CCW it I may just carry accordingly.

 

[Zero]

Attorney's

Attorneys will try to make an issue out of what shoes you were wearing!

 

[Mal H]

... and anyone who enters a trial without a lawyer who is well aware that reloads may be brought up as an issue and who doesn't have a good convincing response is being irresponsible to themselves.

 

[ambidextrous1]

I carry reloads, because I train with them, and because they are the most accurate cartridges I have found.

Reliability is not an issue with my loads; in fact, I have experienced more faulty ammo in commercial stuff than I have in my own loads - in the past 10 years. I'll admit that this hasn't always been true, but I am currently loading with the Dillon 650, and hand check EVERY round with a cartridge gauge, checking at the same time for high primers. I can check 1000 rounds of .45 ACP in this manner in about 15 minutes. If I have more than 1000 rounds to check, I do it in two sessions or more.

 

[WESHOOT2]

FFL06 = $30

Just do as I did.............because

 

[Gary H]

If you participate in some form of competition, or you hunt, then it would be natural to use the ammunition that is used for competition/practice. Your primary use of this ammunition is for practice. You practice to be competitive. Perhaps you shoot twelve thousand rounds down range a year. Reloading allows you to control cost and performance. Two in a guy that broke into your house and was assailing you with a knife would be one round in the perp for every six-thousand shot for competition. It would be hard to make the case that you were developing killer loads and going out looking for test subjects. This would be an argument for shooting IDPA without regards to getting the PF down to whatever. Shoot what you will carry should you decide to use your own. It cost more, HP vs. lead and it would be harder to control.. as in higher PF, but that would be a reasonable price to pay for using your own ammunition for self-defense. If you compete using your own, but the load and bullet differ from the one used to shoot the perp, then it is obvious that you had something else in mind when loading your self-defense ammo. Duhhh... but it would give the other side some room to move in civil court.

 

[Valkman]

Handloads on the average have less reliability than factory, so "they" say. I personally would stick with factory loads for self defense.

No one that reloads would ever say that. My reloads are certainly as reliable as factory ammo. I heard all this carry reload stuff before and at first believed it - when I lived in California. There they probably would hammer you for anything they could find, although again there's that little thing that no one can find a case where it's happened.

The more I think about it, I think that if your shooting is justified, it doesn't matter what kind of ammo you're carrying. And if it's not you've got way bigger problems than your ammo.

 

[g56]

Mas Ayoob makes the point about factory loads from time to time, while some my dismiss him, he is the expert witness most often used by defense attorneys in unjustified criminal charges or civil actions filed against the shooter.

It kind of depends on this, if it's a righteous shooting, Mas can get you out of this, the problem is...can you afford the best attorneys and the expert witnesses necessary? Most people can't!

 

[Mannlicher]

If I can make a better load, I carry it. The old saw about handloads bringing on hellfire from the DA remains apocryphal.
I use Factory HydroShocks in my semi autos, because I can't really load a better performing round, but in Revolvers, I usually carry my own loads.

 

[BluesBear]

Been there.

The subject of my handloads was never broght up at my trial.
The only people who asked anything about it at all were the officers on the scene. And their only questions were asked in private, and consisted of, "What was it?" and "Where can we get some?"

 

[Ben Shepherd]

I carry my hadloads. Why?

Out of more than 50,000 handloads I've had exactly 2 FTF's. One I screwed up and didn't have the primer fully seated. The first hammer fall seated it far enough that the second fall set it off fine.

The other one I hadn't inspected the primer close enough. It had no compound, just an anvil and a cup.

Both of these were practice ammo loaded on a progressive. I load carry/hunting rounds on a single stage, with a close inspection at EVERY step.

I can load the slug I want to the exact velocity I want for that specific gun. And with careful powder selection, tune recoil to some degree.

I can beat factory loads in the accuracy dept 98% of the time.

So far with commercial ammo, I've gotten primers in upside down on 2 occasions, crushed/wrinkled case mouths several times. I've even pulled them down to check, and occasionally I'll find the powder charge isn't very consistant.

Have I screwed up a primer or case mouth? You bet, several times. But I've never had one of mine that's visibly messed up get past QC.

 

[The Rabbi]

I have to agree with Monkey Man. If the shooting was good then the load doesnt matter. If it was bad then it still doesnt matter. Any DA or attorney would have to first educate the jury on what reloading is, what bullet weight and type means, what powder type and load mean and so on. I can see the jury's eyes glazing over. It is a no-win for the prosecution.
Second, as pointed out, there has never been a case where this was a factor.
Third, most reloaders I know are very careful to pick the best components that match their particular gun and their particular style of shooting. It is the major reason to reload other than cost. To say that the result of that is something less reliable than factory is ludicrous. Sure, some people are careless reloaders but the same people probably run their 1911's for 1000 rounds between cleanings.
Finally, as mentioned, the whole thing seems to have been started by Ayoob without any basis. It was certainly a career-enhancing move to mention a concern that others hadnt thought of and would be quoted often, but that doesnt make it true. He has also been caught in some other whoppers.
Again, bottom line here is something often quoted: do what works best for you.

 

[Dave R]

I carry reloads because that's what I practice with.

I think it is highly unlikely that anyone other than me (or possibly my attorney) will know I used reloads, in the unfortunate event that I would ever have to shoot in a self-defense situation.

There will be a commercial case on the floor. There will be a commercial bullet at the other end. The velocity and the performance of the bullet will be very close/identical to factory performance. The powder residue may very well be the same powder used by the manufacturer.

How will anyone determine whether I pulled the lever on the press, rather than someone at a factory?

 

[griz]

Reloaded cases, even those carefully loaded, can have burrs or unoticed

You can handload with new cases if that worries you. If you do you still need to inspect the case. I saw a brand new shiney case that had no flash hole and a couple others with dinged up mouths. A once fired case can not have the flash hole problem and a weak spot in the brass should have showed up on the first shot.

That said I would not use a case fired more than twice or a case that wasn't well inspected.

 

[twolf]

Con

In a court of law, it does not matter what you can prove. It matters what the jury believes. If you ever do use a weapon for self defense, they will take that weapon and in several states if you modify the trigger, it is illegal for carry, whether by putting a trigger shoe or by adjusting the trigger pull. While they are at it, they will check your ammunition.

You shoot to stop, do not shoot to kill or wound, both shows intent. Intent is bad. However, they can also show intent if you use ammunition that is not readily available to the public. If they check your reloads and find them to be "hot", they can prove intent. Also, any DA or CA can charge you with manslaughter and have a jury decide your fate. If a panel of 12 citizens hear that you was loading your own rounds, they could take that one of two ways. Me, I do not want that 50% chance. I use Corbon and Winchester Silver Tip. Both of which are used by LE agencies.

To the individual that has never heard of the use of relaods being used in a trial as intent, up until 10 years ago, firearm manufacturers weren't held liable for what idiots did with their weapons, Now they are! Do you want to be the first.

 

[Steve in PA]

Currently I am required to carry "factory" duty loads, but when I retire I will be carrying my reloads.

There is not one.....repeat not one civil or criminal case where factory/reloads has come in to play.

If you have a reliability problem with your reloads, then you are doing something wrong.

As stated, self defense is self defense. If I am justified in using deadly force to protect my life or that of another it doesn't matter if I use my fists, a handgun or a bazooka.

Why would I be liable for putting together a round that someone else can do commercially??

This topic was brough up on GT and you can read all about it here....

www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=276925

 

[grendelbane]

Well, it looks like things are backwards in the big cities! Here in the country you are more likely to have problems because you chose to use that fancy store bought ammunition.

The prosecuting attorney is likely to make such statements as, "No, an 158 grain cast SWC over 15 grains of 2400 was not good enough for the defendant to use. It was good enough for his father, and his father before him, but the defendant had to buy fancy store bought ammunition!"

 

[Steve in PA]

And the gun makers have been winning the lawsuits.

Unless the gunmaker made a defective product, they can not be held liable for a legal product, used illegally.

Beretta just won a major lawsuit brought against them because, if I remember correctly, a family sued Beretta because they did not have a loaded chamber indicator (they do, so this claim amazed me) and someone got shot with the gun, claimng they didn't know it was loaded. DUH.

Check it before you handle it, idiot.

 

[Okiecruffler]

I currently carry Corbons in my 357 and the Wife carries Federal in her's, but I have carried my reloads up until very recently. I'm another who doesn't buy into the legal aspect, but I am in Oklahoma, where we treat criminals like criminals, at least until they get into the court system. When I was loading my carry ammo, I carefully inspected every component, case, primer and bullet. Carefully weighed each charge. Best thing about carrying your own is if you carry a snubby like I do you can taylor your load to shoot to POA. I've been reloading now for over 20 years and the only FTF's I've ever had was a few years back when I got ahold of some bad shotgun primers. Out of 100 rds I had 37 that failed to go boom. Never did figure that one out.

 

[The Rabbi]

In a court of law, it does not matter what you can prove. It matters what the jury believes. If you ever do use a weapon for self defense, they will take that weapon and in several states if you modify the trigger, it is illegal for carry, whether by putting a trigger shoe or by adjusting the trigger pull. While they are at it, they will check your ammunition.

Can you name states that prohibit modification of a weapon for carry? I find it hard to imagine that what you say is true, esp since the mods you mention are very commonly done.
I have yet to hear reliable stories of anyone having to defend their ammo choice. What will they check your ammo for? Almost everyone who reloads uses factory components, no different from what the ammo makers use. If I load a Hornady XTP, how is that different from buying a loaded round with Hornady XTP in it? Try explaining that one to a jury.

No, the law here is that one uses his weapon to neutralize a threat of death of bodily harm to himself or another. Once that threat is neutralized he is not authorized to use his weapon. Before that threat is neiutralized he is authorized to use it. There is no requirement here for a warning shot, a debilitating shot or any other kind of shot. All the defendant has to do is convince the jury that he reasonably was in fear and acted solely to neutralize the threat.
Again, those propounding the "DA will use this against you" had better put up some evidence from the real world.

 

[steveno]

at some point in time everybody will have a "bad" reload that will cuase a problem and while a person has loaded several thousand or more rounds before this happened. keep in mind that Federal and others load several million rounds of the same caliber without a problem. I think the simple issue is overall quality in the long run. I keep Federal factorys in the 45 acp and 9 mm. I use winchester factory silvertips in the 41 mag.

 

[grendelbane]

Can you name states that prohibit modification of a weapon for carry?

My CCW today was a Caspian framed, Colt slided .38 Super I assembled last month. I suppose I could maintain that I was the original manufacturer, and that there were no modifications.

The magazine was loaded with my favourite .38 Super load.

This is an 147 grain JHP over a moderate dose of Power Pistol.

It would be kind of hard for a prosecutor to maintain I had increased the lethality, as my handloads are some what milder than the only 147 grain .38 Super factory loads I know of.

A prosecutor might try and make an issue of both the weapon and the ammunition. He, (or she), might also make an issue of the fact that my favourite 18th century Scottish philosoper-economist is Adam Smith, or that I dislike the graduated rate income tax.

I enjoy reading the Sharpe novels by Bernard Cornwell. A prosecutor could have a field day with this.

Life is too short to try and fit myself into some one else's notions of what is proper and what is not. I do my best to obey actual laws, and that should be enough.

 

[twolf]

critics

The DA needs Ability, Opportunity, and Intent, to prove their case. The fact that you used anything other than factory ammo could prove Intent. If you can't find "reliable" factory ammo, let me know, their is a whole list of them.

Modifying the trigger to lighten the pull is a modification that several states do not allow. In fact, several manufacturers make lighter trigger disconnects but they flat out state that they should not be used for carry use because they are too light of a trigger pull. Many law enforcement agencies are now requiring their officers to carry DAO weapons, if they are gonna carry off-duty or concealed carry.

Steve in PA, until the last three years, manufacturers were losing and losing bad. The reason they have started winning is because of the Bush Administration. If that idiot Kerry gets into office, it won't last. Smith & Wesson, Colt and Beretta have all lost law suits. In fact, S&W almost had to close their doors because of the suit.

Also, if the government did not care what ammo you used, you could still buy Black Talons!

 

[JuniorG]

[FFL06 = $30
Just do as I did.............because

Ditto, did it years ago.
I prefer factory ammo.
MY factory ammo.

Somebody comes in here and we have to start shooting we won't call the local yocals we'll call the feds in.

My main concern is... that if anyone has to use our ammo for self defense it performs well, thats the way its made.