PSA and BCM comparison

[Archangel14]

Gents:

I'm trying to figure something out. Specifically, is there a really big difference in the quality of some of the "better" PSA uppers compared to BCM uppers? There's a big price difference, thus I wonder if there is a big quality difference. For instance, PSA has a 16 inch "premium" upper that appears to have all the bells and whistles (high pressure tested, etc) for $279. BCM has a similar product for $515, but without a hand guard. That's a considerable price difference. And it's my understanding (possibly an incorrect understanding) that both companies use FN barrels. What are your thoughts?

 

[Inebriated]

Actually, PSA's premium isn't CHF. BCM's non-CHF uppers are $440.

So $280 for the PSA, $440 for the BCM.
PSA BCG is $80, and their CH is $23. BCM is still running their CH/BCG combo for $70.

The total for a complete PSA is $380, and for the BCM, $510 + whatever handguard.

The difference really isn't that great, plus you have to consider the BCM has a comp and an upgraded charging handle, and they have outstanding customer service. PSA's customer service can be mediocre to absolutely useless. I have two friends who've had horrible PSA experiences.

Some people love PSA, but I'll gladly pay another $150 more for BCM. They absolutely stand behind their product, and their quality control is some of the best in the industry.

 

[HOOfan_1]

You can get a Daniel Defense upper with a cold hammer forged barrel for $460...carbine or midlength.

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...stripped-upper-receiver-groups-prod54564.aspx

Bought mine on sale for $420...and I have seen it as low as $400

 

[Jackal]

The pragmatic side of me knows that the best stuff PSA has to offer is equal to what BCM sells. The name/logo/sexy appeal of the BCM moniker is nice too. Personally, I've only had 2 BCM uppers and both had poorly matched feed ramps. Out of 4 PSA uppers, only 1 was sort of fugly.

 

[Girodin]

I have a BCM, I have bought a bunch of stuff from PSA. The quality assurance of BCM is much higher. One example I have personally inspected at least 6 different PSA premium bolt carrier groups. The staking of the gas key on some of them is perfect, others not so much.

The other thing with PSA is its hard to always know what you are getting and you have to read their descriptions really closely.

In sum one can get a good functional upper from PSA. I cannot complain about my PSA "premium" upper. In full disclosure, t is a tertiary AR for me behind a Noveske and BCM. A BCM is not much more and sight unseen I would have far greater confidence in the BCM.

This explains part of why I really like BCM and recommend them to most people.

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/27/gunfighter-moment-larry-vickers-26/

 

[MachIVshooter]

The other thing with PSA is its hard to always know what you are getting and you have to read their descriptions really closely.

That pretty much sums up PSA, and is one of the reasons their reputation can be all over the map. They have something like 115 upper offerings, ranging from the most basic slick sided P-TAC with a phosphate 4140 barrel to those with FN forged barrels and MI FF hand guards.

Having said that, I've yet to see a real problem with anything from them. Everything I've bought has been great, and the closest thing to trouble any of my friends have had was a tight chamber on a .308 upper that had some failures to go into battery during the first couple of mags.

 

[NWcityguy2]

They are equivalent in both specs and actual performance. There is a huge perception difference between the two brands, but in real-world shooting, not so much.

Getting wrapped up in the Brand X vs Brand Y debate has diminishing returns. For example, look at this thread. One person mentioned the BCM had poorly aligned feed ramps and another mentioned that the staking on PSA bcgs was sub-par. Did either of them mention that the BCM doesn't feed ammo or the PSA gas key shot itself loose? Guns shoot bullets, and with PSA and BCM, they both shoot them about as accurately and for about as long.

 

[Jackal]

Sad thing is, no matter who builds any upper I purchase, I personally check their work regardless of brand. After doing this a few times, I got wise and decided to just build my own from now on, since I check their work anyway.

 

[NWcityguy2]

I like building too, and think it is the best way to go when you don't want a FSB. A custom built gun has exactly zero resale value though, but that isn't a problem for me and I rarely sell a gun.

 

[Archangel14]

They absolutely stand behind their product, and their quality control is some of the best in the industry.

BCM's reputation for good customer service seems apparent. And I often hear about their great "quality control". But I'm wondering if people are just mimicking what they hear on the net or if they have some specific knowledge. It would seem difficult to determine the quality control habits of any company unless one works for that company. I wonder what sets BCM apart from PSA in QC?

 

[Powderman]

First...I am NOT bashing any brand of AR.

That being said, the thing that sets BCM, Colt, and FN rifles apart is that they are the closest thing to actual military specification that you can buy.

For these rifles, the barrel and parts of the BCG are manufactured from this stuff: MIL-B-11595E, Bar, Metal and Blanks, Steel (under 2 inches in diameter) for barrels of small arms weapons. This is also known as Carpenter Tool Steel, and it follows the Technical Data Package (TDP) for the AR15 rifle. Some manufacturers use CM 4140, and some use CM 4130 for their barrels. Carpenter Tool Steel is classified as CM 4150.

The manufacturers noted above also make sure that the gas key is properly staked to prevent gas loss; front sight bases are installed correctly, and are at the proper height, and that the proper feed ramps are used for either rifle or carbine.

If you want to shoot at a relatively sedate pace, cool. But if you put a lot of ammo through the rifle, you'll want a chrome lined barrel AND chamber. Some folks will tell you, "The chrome's in the steel". Not the same thing, folks.

So, this being said, I'd go with the BCM. But be aware that you can now buy a Colt 6920 for under a thousand in most cases.

 

[Girodin]

I wonder what sets BCM apart from PSA in QC?

BCM has a reputation among what I would call more serious users of rifles. I think you are spot on about most people don't deal with enough of a sample size to be able to truly have first hand knowledge. However, there are people who get to see a lot of rifles used and used relatively hard. I tend to listen to guys who will teach 30 carbine classes a year with 20 or so students firing a decent round count over 3 days each class. That does give some insights into trends. Another group I'll listen to about trends they see is guys running the training or weapons programs for decent sized organizations. Due to my work I have been able to work with a few such people. What they see across a few hundred weapons over a few years is more informative than my singular experience.

Then you can look at online reviews and feedback. I've never heard wide spread issues from BCM with misaligned feed ramps or the wrong size gas tube, poorly staked gas keys, castle nuts that weren't staked at all etc. Can one slip out the door sure. However, by all accounts I've ever seen BCM has great CS.

Look at the small details too. BCM isn't shipping me a 6061 buffer tube to save a couple bucks. Lastly I don't have to worry about if I am really getting the good stuff with BCM or if this is some cheaper option they have recently sourced. I'm not trying to knock PSA. I have bought A LOT of stuff from them. However, they are different companies with different philosophies. They also have demonstrably different track records.

Check that link I posted. I think the big difference with BCM is mind set. They know that there are people who may stake their life on the performance of their product and they strive to build things accordingly. Does that mean they can't screw up no. Do I think it means they are less likely to send a problematic product out the door, personally I do.

That being said, the thing that sets BCM, Colt, and FN rifles apart is that they are the closest thing to actual military specification that you can buy.

If you are talking about the FN15, FNs gun they are selling to civies commercially you need to check that. The FN 15 is not the same as the military guns. http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?143446-Is-FN-preparing-to-release-their-own-AR

 

[MachIVshooter]

For these rifles, the barrel and parts of the BCG are manufactured from this stuff: MIL-B-11595E, Bar, Metal and Blanks, Steel (under 2 inches in diameter) for barrels of small arms weapons. This is also known as Carpenter Tool Steel, and it follows the Technical Data Package (TDP) for the AR15 rifle. Some manufacturers use CM 4140, and some use CM 4130 for their barrels. Carpenter Tool Steel is classified as CM 4150.

Nope.

The C158 by Carpenter steel is NOT what's used for a barrel; it is the standard bolt material. The truth, however, is that when properly heat treated (which is easy with today's more accurate instruments), a 9310 steel bolt is actually superior. Carpenter's proprietary steel was chosen 40 years ago because it is more forgiving on the heat treatment.

Also, please cite anyone who's used 4130 for an AR barrel, as I've never encountered such. 4140, 4150 and 416 stainless are standard.

Having said all that, the mil-spec argument is a bunch of hogwash. No AR-15 can be truly mil spec anyway, as they universally lack an auto sear.

 

[Girodin]

Did either of them mention that the BCM doesn't feed ammo or the PSA gas key shot itself loose? Guns shoot bullets, and with PSA and BCM, they both shoot them about as accurately and for about as long.

Well I won't use a poorly staked key, I fix it. I have seen an improperly staked key come loose before. I've seen a castle nut that wasn't staked become a problem too. I stacked the unstacked castle nets I've seen from PSA.

As far as guns shoot bullets goes, I'm guessing the batch of PSAs that went out the door with the wrong size gas tubes actually struggled with that one.

I do think you are right that for many many shooters certain cut corners may not ultimately matter. A guy who shoots a couple mags every couple months is less likely to have an issue creep up. I guy who shoots from a bench and doesn't even know what mortaring is, probably wont see that 6061 rear extension be an issue versus a 7075. It doesn't mean someone else is wrong noting the difference and wanting the better stuff.

 

[bfoosh006]

I own both... both will get the job done.

IMHO, I do think the PSA is, while still a good value, A lesser rifle.

I wholeheartedly believe my BCM's are assembled with much more care and diligence. With thoroughly tested higher quality parts, right down to the smallest spring....with PSA I really have no idea who made the LPK, etc.... but I suspect it is the lowest possible bidder... with little or no concern as to the quality of the LPK. And while functional, the PSA small parts will wear faster.

And that is worth the extra money for the BCM.... and believe it is worth paying for. I believe BCM takes pride in the product they produce. And choose their components appropriately.

BCM, is like a good auto mechanic, the one you trust to do it right and make decisions based on his experience and knowledge.
You can fully rely on him to do the right thing.

PSA is a little more like the discount repair shop.... cheapest parts and cost.. and get you out the door... on to the next...


Both have their selling points.....So you decide which is best for you.



IMHO, It is like the generic grocery store brand vs. the name brand....both are GTG... but the premium brand is worth the extra cost.

 

[NWcityguy2]

We are already seeing the diminishing returns on the X vs Y debate. Inaccurate information, off-topic comparisons, old issues, speaking for someone else, and people talking about problems that were never actually problems.

Does PSA really just use any part they can find? Does anyone even know which company BCM uses for their lpks? And do they last longer than anything else? I mean, PSA used Schmid tool parts, the same as Colt and DD have done. Or is receiving a PSA with the wrong gas tube a realistic concern years after the issue was fixed? Plus we have people talking about lowers (and lpks) when the question was about barreled uppers.

These discussions are about perceptions and personal standards, not about performance. I'd encourage readers to read my review of my PSA premium upper here on the forum and post an similarly objective review of a BCM. There won't be many differences.

 

[bfoosh006]

Ok.... so who makes PSA's uppers ?

What about the gas tube... the gas block... the barrel extension...

My point is you never know.

My example about a LPK... was just that an example.

And you can't sell that cheap unless you are cutting corners.


My final comment from my previous comment still stands.


I do have to ask.... if PSA is using the same parts as BCM, how are they selling them so cheap ?

I am not trying to be difficult and I respect your thoughts... but how can PSA sell that much cheaper.


Could you link your comparison thread ?

 

[Archangel14]

Does anyone even know which company BCM uses for their lpks?

That's where a question mark popped into my head. BCM does not publish the makers of their parts (or some of them). It's my understanding that both PSA and BCM use FN barrels. If so, right there you have an IDENTICAL part that will give identical performance. Both have similar HPT/MPI testing (how different can it be?), M4 feed ramps, etc. And when we get down to it we're talking about an instrument that is meant to shoot a bullet. Not ridiculously complicated. And while I generally accept the 'ole adage "you get what you pay for", I can cite many examples of personal experience where that was simply not the case. I'll tell you that I'm leaning toward a $750 BCM 20 inch upper. But the PSA counterpart is literally hundreds less. Makes one ask why and wonder if the PSA counterpart is so inferior that one can expect it to crap out after 15K rounds.

 

[Jackal]

$500 OR $1500, I've seen AR's choke. Every company puts out some turds. There are 2 things BCM sells that I'm a huge fan of, their charging handles and their hats. Damn nice hats.

Honestly though. When you get right down to it, the complete BCM upper is only a little more expensive than the best PSA upper/bcg combo (chf, free float and hpt/mpi). As for lowers, I've never had a lower malfunction, whether cheapo Anderson/PSA or Colt/BCM. The only lpk's I will not buy anymore is RRA, just too many out of spec roll pins.

 

[Inebriated]

That's where a question mark popped into my head. BCM does not publish the makers of their parts (or some of them). It's my understanding that both PSA and BCM use FN barrels. If so, right there you have an IDENTICAL part that will give identical performance.

It isn't that black and white. BCM may very well have a narrower window of tolerance for their barrels, or reject barrels that PSA may not.

It comes down to trust. Do you trust BCM to put out a quality product? Do you trust PSA to put out a quality product? If you trust PSA, get PSA. When specs are similar and part sources are private, all you have is reputation and trust.

 

[Archangel14]

When specs are similar and part sources are private, all you have is reputation and trust.

Wisdom. I think that statement sums it up right there. And another point, I plan on building a rifle that I can rely on when a big, long fight comes about (hopefully never). I think the nod goes to BCM. Plus, BCM is located in a small town in Wisconsin (Hartland), which I visited recently. American as apple pie, as they say. Can't wait to give them my money!

 

[Girodin]

It's my understanding that both PSA and BCM use FN barrels. If so, right there you have an IDENTICAL part that will give identical performance.

Same maker by now means equates to them being per se identical. I see this was explained in post #20. I have no information as to what PSA accepts and BCM rejects. I am not stating one is better than the other. Rather just pointing out that the argument quoted above is not necessarily a sound one.

 

[ChCx2744]

I, personally, haven't had any problems with either brand. I've personally built and owned a PSA AR with CHF barrel. Haven't owned a BCM, but have some parts (Charging handle, grips, slings and mounts). The only issue I had with the PSA is the area where the feed ramp ends and the locking lugs begin, the edge of the locking lugs were so sharp that they would scratch the bullets.

 

[Jackal]

The only issue I had with the PSA is the area where the feed ramp ends and the locking lugs begin, the edge of the locking lugs were so sharp that they would scratch the bullets.

I've never seen an AR that didnt scratch them. The scratches usually occur on hand cycling/ ejection and not upon chambering. In other words, when your actually shooting the rifle, the bullets shouldnt get scratched.

 

[Quentin]

I have BCM and PSA 16" non hammer forged midlength barreled uppers. The PSA is a Premium with FN barrel and honestly I can't see much difference between the two uppers, the M4 feed ramps are equally good as are other comparison points.

Where I noticed a difference is the BCG. I bought the BCM upper first and with two BCM BCGs (pre-Sandy Hook when they were $135). Later when I bought the PSA upper I got their Premium BCG but didn't like the cheap gas key screws or the staking. I put the second BCM BCG in the PSA and now feel good about that upper.

But this comes down to a sample of one with both uppers, the difference though - I'd expect BCM to consistently deliver a quality upper. PSA? They probably do too.

I have seen 5 PSA BCGs and none measured up to my two BCMs. (gas key screws, staking, MPI and HPT markings, extractor parts). This was two years ago, I can't say about today.