PSL Romak 3
- Thread starter dunlop
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possum
Member
welcome to the forum, can you guve us some details, ie group sizes, distances and postions shot, ammo used etc. i am very interested in these and have been wanting one for a while. How did the stock optic work out for you? is it a 4x?
yea its 4x10
7.62x54r
i have been useing surplus ammo, some russian made silver tip 147grain.
at a hundred yards i can hit a 4 inch target all the time, grouping is still really tight within inches bench sitting.... the gun is kinda heavy so i mainly shoot it laying or on table. i really like the scope, it took me a wile to get use to but i love it now. at 800 yards im prob at around 5-6 inches, but still have not perfected my shooting at the range. blew me away when i shot that far, did not think it was possible but HA
7.62x54r
i have been useing surplus ammo, some russian made silver tip 147grain.
at a hundred yards i can hit a 4 inch target all the time, grouping is still really tight within inches bench sitting.... the gun is kinda heavy so i mainly shoot it laying or on table. i really like the scope, it took me a wile to get use to but i love it now. at 800 yards im prob at around 5-6 inches, but still have not perfected my shooting at the range. blew me away when i shot that far, did not think it was possible but HA
jpwilly
Member
Possum, I had a PSL-54c...same thing as a Romak 3. J&G sales has them for $749. I purchased one last fall and sold it this summer.
The Cons: The rifle shot 2-3" groups from a bench rest with surplus ammo. The barrel heats fast and the shots begin to string vertical. There's no way a 2-3 MOA rifle will shoot 5-6" groups at 800yards. Granted some are better than others. I handloaded up a few loads but the rifle tore up the brass and shot marginally better. The finish is poor and the stock is too short. Also because I'm a lefty the offset of the scope and the way the stock is shaped didn't work for me.
The pros...the rifle was fun, different and went bang everytime. The IOR scope is really neat with the rangefinder. If you don't mind a 2-3MOA rifle with limited ammo choices aside from surplus or S&B, Wolf Gold ect than you'll like it. If you want accuracy get an M14 or AR10 (I went AR10 and M1)
Dunlap, don't get me wrong I'm not bashing your rifle just telling my experience with one like it. I did enjoy shooting it but it wasn't a keeper for me.
The Cons: The rifle shot 2-3" groups from a bench rest with surplus ammo. The barrel heats fast and the shots begin to string vertical. There's no way a 2-3 MOA rifle will shoot 5-6" groups at 800yards. Granted some are better than others. I handloaded up a few loads but the rifle tore up the brass and shot marginally better. The finish is poor and the stock is too short. Also because I'm a lefty the offset of the scope and the way the stock is shaped didn't work for me.
The pros...the rifle was fun, different and went bang everytime. The IOR scope is really neat with the rangefinder. If you don't mind a 2-3MOA rifle with limited ammo choices aside from surplus or S&B, Wolf Gold ect than you'll like it. If you want accuracy get an M14 or AR10 (I went AR10 and M1)
Dunlap, don't get me wrong I'm not bashing your rifle just telling my experience with one like it. I did enjoy shooting it but it wasn't a keeper for me.
WardenWolf
member
No, those groupings are indeed possible out of a PSL. I've heard of 0.5-0.75 MOA easily. Someone I know currently has theirs shooting 1-inch groups at 200 yards. It varies depending on the individual gun and the condition of your scope, and the quality of ammo you're using. The scopes that come with PSL's have all been military-issued. Some are in near-perfect condition, others actually have their range turrets jump around when you fire. I need to replace my scope because it's pretty much worn out.
My current batch of surplus ammo is very poor. It was made in 1990, in Russia, right as the Soviet Union broke up. If I got some 7N1 or some older or newer ammo, I am positive I would have better results. I also need to replace my scope because, as I said, it's pretty much worn out. I intend to get one of the newer 8x models to replace it with.
My current batch of surplus ammo is very poor. It was made in 1990, in Russia, right as the Soviet Union broke up. If I got some 7N1 or some older or newer ammo, I am positive I would have better results. I also need to replace my scope because, as I said, it's pretty much worn out. I intend to get one of the newer 8x models to replace it with.
stubbicatt
Member
That had to be one of the most frustrating rifles I've ever owned.
It would shoot 2 or 3 shots almost touching, and then start stringing up to the right at 2 o'clock.
I did use it for prairie dog shooting for awhile because the ammo was cheaper than my handloads for my 223 dedicated hunting rifle.
Then I had a cartridge blow up on me in that rifle. Blew a hole right at the case head. To this day I don't know what caused that, but I strongly suspect a partial out of battery discharge, as I can find no other explanation. After pounding the sheet metal top cover back into shape, I sold that bad boy.
I believe strongly that without the safety sear, this rifle is not safe to fire.
'Course, I could be wrong.
It would shoot 2 or 3 shots almost touching, and then start stringing up to the right at 2 o'clock.
I did use it for prairie dog shooting for awhile because the ammo was cheaper than my handloads for my 223 dedicated hunting rifle.
Then I had a cartridge blow up on me in that rifle. Blew a hole right at the case head. To this day I don't know what caused that, but I strongly suspect a partial out of battery discharge, as I can find no other explanation. After pounding the sheet metal top cover back into shape, I sold that bad boy.
I believe strongly that without the safety sear, this rifle is not safe to fire.
'Course, I could be wrong.
MachIVshooter
Member
I keep mine around because I have a couple thousand rounds of x54 that would take forever to get rid of in a Mosin. Otherwise, I'd sell it and buy another AR-10.
WardenWolf
member
You had a case head separation. This is common with bad ComBloc steel-cased ammo, but can also happen when you shoot brass after shooting steel or lacquered steel (both of which lead to significant chamber fouling; the case head breaks away on extraction). Chances are you just got a very bad round. The lack of safety sear really has nothing to do with it as long as the firing pin is kept clean. You'll never be able to fire it faster than it can cycle.
The PSL can safely handle up to 155 grain bullets.
MachIVshooter
Member
147 is the light ball.
Comments like this make it even more difficult to believe the already incredibly unlikely 5" group at 800 yards claim.
Ditto. 1/2 MOA is very good shooting and generally requires a good bolt action and premium ammunition or tailored handloads. Claiming close to 1/2 MOA accuracy at 800 yards from a Romanian AK, shooting commie surplus, strains credibility to the breaking point.
I might be able to believe that someone achieved 1 MOA after tuning up a particularly good PSL and working up a handload for it, but 1/2 MOA? Yeah, right.
In the words of Bossman, who has worked up handloads for the PSL and posted some very impressive groups over at the AK Files, "Do not expect to get 1" 5 shot groups everytime, you will be dissapointed. This is not a Snipers rifle this is a designated marksmans rifle and if you view it in that role you will enjoy it for what it is."
"If you are getting consistant 1.5" 5 shot groups you are just about at the apex of this rifles accuracy potential. If you look at how the thing is put together thats actually quite remarkable (thats about as good as a rack grade m-14 shooting quality ammo)."
does an ak have a long stroke gas system?... and for the 147 grain.. whats wrong with 2720 fps ??? the gun was made to shoot 147-158.
ok here is a video, that i would say i agree with. 600m or 1980 feet same thing.... i can shoot better but i will get proof untill i say any more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktaH0kdKV80&feature=related
i will try and make my own video sometime
that and what the hell is MOA is that like Mean Point of Impact ??? like MPI ?????? same thing right?
ok here is a video, that i would say i agree with. 600m or 1980 feet same thing.... i can shoot better but i will get proof untill i say any more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktaH0kdKV80&feature=related
i will try and make my own video sometime
that and what the hell is MOA is that like Mean Point of Impact ??? like MPI ?????? same thing right?
GTSteve03
Member
MOA = Minute Of Angle. It's a little complicated to explain but to make it easy, 1 MOA = 1 inch at 100yds. So, 1 MOA = 2 inches at 200yds, 4 inches at 400yds, etc. A 1 MOA gun would shoot 8 inches at 800yds, a 2 MOA gun would double that and shoot about 16 inches at 800yds. I would assume a good PSL would do somewhere in between.
WardenWolf
member
Minute of Angle / Margin of Accuracy, depending on who you ask. Minute of Angle is the proper term. 1 Minute of Angle means a 1" wide pattern at 100 yards.
PSL's do vary, depending on when they were made and whether they were factory-assembled or a hodgepodge of parts. Newer PSL's are indeed capable of 0.5 MOA if you get lucky and get a good one, and shoot good ammo through it. The factory was modernized about 10 years ago, and any PSL made since that time is going to be a cut above the older ones.
I am highly skeptical about anyone who said they found the gun's limits using handloads. The proper Russian bullet has a .311 diameter, and I am quite certain there are no true .311 bullets available in the US. They would most likely be shooting .308 bullets, which would have a negative effect on accuracy. Unless they were pulling Wolf Gold 150 grain FMJ BT bullets and using them in their load, I am very skeptical of their claimed results.
AK's do indeed have a long-stroke action. It's only the SVD that has the unusual and quirky short gas system.
PSL's do vary, depending on when they were made and whether they were factory-assembled or a hodgepodge of parts. Newer PSL's are indeed capable of 0.5 MOA if you get lucky and get a good one, and shoot good ammo through it. The factory was modernized about 10 years ago, and any PSL made since that time is going to be a cut above the older ones.
I am highly skeptical about anyone who said they found the gun's limits using handloads. The proper Russian bullet has a .311 diameter, and I am quite certain there are no true .311 bullets available in the US. They would most likely be shooting .308 bullets, which would have a negative effect on accuracy. Unless they were pulling Wolf Gold 150 grain FMJ BT bullets and using them in their load, I am very skeptical of their claimed results.
AK's do indeed have a long-stroke action. It's only the SVD that has the unusual and quirky short gas system.
Dr. Peter Venkman
Member
Mine gave me about 1.2-1.5 MOA yesterday at the range, 50 yards open sights. I can't figure out the scope mount.
GarandOwner
Member
MOA is minute of angle, this is one minute of a degree. Which is 1/60th of a degree. The easy approximation is that 1 MOA is about 1 inch at 100 yards, really 1 MOA = d/(cos(1/60))*sin(1/60) where d is the distance in inches. So at 100 yards (3600 inches) 1 MOA = 1.0472 which is close enough to one inch, as distance increases, the 1 inch approximation gains a greater margin of error. At 800 yards, 1 MOA = 8.3776 inches
So if you claim that you are getting consistent 5" groups, then your rifle shoots about .6 MOA.......Im gonna have to call shenanigans on this one. Many bolt guns strain for this kind of accuracy, and to say that an autoloader, that isnt exactally known for pin point accuracy, shooting mil surplus ammo, is capable of sustaining this kind of accuracy is hard to believe........However if you REALLY are shooting this good, then don't let anyone on here discourage you. I was lucky enough to find a Mosin Nagant that shoots sub MOA, (using quality ammo or handloads, not surplus) I posted a range report on here a while back.
Maybe your a better shooter than you are speller 
....only kidding, Welcome to The High Road!!
So if you claim that you are getting consistent 5" groups, then your rifle shoots about .6 MOA.......Im gonna have to call shenanigans on this one. Many bolt guns strain for this kind of accuracy, and to say that an autoloader, that isnt exactally known for pin point accuracy, shooting mil surplus ammo, is capable of sustaining this kind of accuracy is hard to believe........However if you REALLY are shooting this good, then don't let anyone on here discourage you. I was lucky enough to find a Mosin Nagant that shoots sub MOA, (using quality ammo or handloads, not surplus) I posted a range report on here a while back.
Maybe your a better shooter than you are speller
....only kidding, Welcome to The High Road!!jpwilly
Member
Mike, Be skeptical no more. The .311 bullets do indeed exists here. They are sold as .303 and 7.7mm Jap bullets. Companies such as Sierra, Barnes, Hornandy, Remington and Speer...just to name a few. Don't take my word for it http://www.midwayusa.com/esearch.ex...rds=311+bullet&category_selector=all_products
I didn't try every possible combination and possibly missed a good load for the rifle. But overall finding it would have been frustrating and it was obvious my rifle was not going to make me happy in the end. I just picked up a DPMS LR308 that should do the trick quite nicely!
I'm not planning on a long drawn out argument so I'm just going to say that in MY experience after owning and shooting one for 6months and seeing another guy shoot his that I'm very sceptical about any claim the PSL rifle will consistently shoot MOA let alone sub MOA UNLESS that rifle is ONE OF A KIND! These are Designated Marksman Rifles at best and the vast majority of them are not capable of MOA or better performance. PSL's are not Sniper rifles. If Dunlop's rifle is as accurate as he says and he can shoot it that accurately out to 800yrds like he said = Kudos to him because his is a fine rifle and Dunlap can shoot!
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GarandOwner
Member
Me-thinks you are telling tales my friend, your claim of 5" groups is sketchy, but saying you can hit a pack of cigarettes at 100 yards with a hand gun......that just sounds too fantastic to be true
possum
Member
thanks for all the info guys, preciate it.
Ash
Member
As an owner of an SVD and PSL, I really like shooting the PSL. It is the SVD's equal in virtually all areas (including barrel diameter). It is reliable and durable. In some ways it is less durable than the SVD, but in other ways it is more rugged. The receiver is stamped but the trunion is milled. It can be worn out, but by the time the receiver is no good, the barrel should be shot out. In that case, the whole package is worn out.
It is a real sniper rifle that serves the same role as the SVD or M76. There are more accurate sniper rifles (in the DMR concept) out there, but none that can really do the job better in actual combat.
All that said, there are great PSL type rifles and not so great. Mine have all been universally good, but I have never owned a TN Gun US built FPK. I have owned a TN Gun imported FPK, a PSL, and two Romak-3's. I have nary a complaint - the PSL and Romak-3's had better triggers than the FPK - but accuracy has been good (as good as my M1a was).
Ash
It is a real sniper rifle that serves the same role as the SVD or M76. There are more accurate sniper rifles (in the DMR concept) out there, but none that can really do the job better in actual combat.
All that said, there are great PSL type rifles and not so great. Mine have all been universally good, but I have never owned a TN Gun US built FPK. I have owned a TN Gun imported FPK, a PSL, and two Romak-3's. I have nary a complaint - the PSL and Romak-3's had better triggers than the FPK - but accuracy has been good (as good as my M1a was).
Ash
jpwilly
Member
Ash, what MOA would you say yours shot with handloads vs surplus?
link to psl in action
http://www.dragunov.net/psl_action.html
The following is an excerpt of an interview between American gun writer David Fortier and an ex-Soviet sniper.
"I had a chance to interview a former member of the Soviet Army who served in Afghanistan for 16 months in 1986-1987. He currently resides in the U.S. and was a very down-to-earth and honest guy. I will be frank, I grew up thinking that one day we'd be fighting these Godless commies in Europe, and that the only good commie was a dead commie. You know the drill. Then I had a chance to sit down and drink vodka with a bunch of Soviet Naval Infantrymen. To my surprise they were down to earth, funny, and a lot like me. It was from that first meeting that I started to research and write on Soviet/Russian firearms.
My new friend here was drafted into the service when he was 19. He had a background in martial arts, Judo and Sambo, and was sent to Airborne School. He made 24(!!!!) jumps during his training. During rifle training his marksmanship abilities were noted and he was asked if he would like to try shooting the SVD Dragunov sniper rifle. He said sure, and when he saw it for the first time he was blown away by how it looked. (I admit....it is the sexiest looking rifle I have ever seen too). He trained with it only out to 400 meters, and only on static targets. Basically he was given all the ballistic tables to learn, some shooting time, and then was expected to pick everything up on his own at his unit. Nice eh? Most of the training was spent learning how to jump....and they never jumped once while in Afghanstan! He was selected out of Airborne school for a Special Forces-type unit that did recon work and ambushes.
When he got to his unit in Afghanistan he said he was lucky because he was issued a rifle that had never been in the field before and still had its cheek piece and rubber eyecup. Usually these items were lost or stolen (he said people would steal the cheekpiece as it would fit an AKS-74 so he had to sleep with it) with cheek pieces being replaced with tourniquets wrapped in electrical tape.
The rifle was nicknamed the "oar" by the troops due to its length and its looks. There was one sniper per platoon and he functioned in what we would refer to as a designated marksman or sharpshooter. During ambushes he stayed with the rear support element (PKM machinegun) and fired in support.
OK, the nitty gritty: How far did he and could he engage? He engaged past 1000 meters in support, firing at heavy weapons, trucks, and personnel. At 600-800 meters (660-880 yards) he felt that he could reliably hit a man with one shot with the SVD. The weapon? He liked it very much, and felt that it was quite accurate and effective. During training (and I have heard this exact same thing from another source) they were told that if you fired and missed your target, human nature would often cause that person to freeze for a couple seconds, due to the proximity of the shot, during this time a semi-automatic rifle allowed you to make your correction and get off a follow-up shot. He liked the rifle, and owns one here in the US now. He just wished that more than one were issued to his platoon. (Later in the war up to 6 were issued per platoon.) On the optics he felt the PSO-1 was quite servicable and thought the reticle extremely effective. This I gotta agree on, I think the PSO-1 has one of the best sniper reticles out there. It ranges easily with the choke rangefinder, provides ranging using the Mil system if you desire, has 10 Mil marks on either side for windage or lead corrections and is illuminated. I was surprised that he did not feel hindered by it being only 4x and he actually liked the extremely large Field Of View.
http://www.dragunov.net/psl_action.html
The following is an excerpt of an interview between American gun writer David Fortier and an ex-Soviet sniper.
"I had a chance to interview a former member of the Soviet Army who served in Afghanistan for 16 months in 1986-1987. He currently resides in the U.S. and was a very down-to-earth and honest guy. I will be frank, I grew up thinking that one day we'd be fighting these Godless commies in Europe, and that the only good commie was a dead commie. You know the drill. Then I had a chance to sit down and drink vodka with a bunch of Soviet Naval Infantrymen. To my surprise they were down to earth, funny, and a lot like me. It was from that first meeting that I started to research and write on Soviet/Russian firearms.
My new friend here was drafted into the service when he was 19. He had a background in martial arts, Judo and Sambo, and was sent to Airborne School. He made 24(!!!!) jumps during his training. During rifle training his marksmanship abilities were noted and he was asked if he would like to try shooting the SVD Dragunov sniper rifle. He said sure, and when he saw it for the first time he was blown away by how it looked. (I admit....it is the sexiest looking rifle I have ever seen too). He trained with it only out to 400 meters, and only on static targets. Basically he was given all the ballistic tables to learn, some shooting time, and then was expected to pick everything up on his own at his unit. Nice eh? Most of the training was spent learning how to jump....and they never jumped once while in Afghanstan! He was selected out of Airborne school for a Special Forces-type unit that did recon work and ambushes.
When he got to his unit in Afghanistan he said he was lucky because he was issued a rifle that had never been in the field before and still had its cheek piece and rubber eyecup. Usually these items were lost or stolen (he said people would steal the cheekpiece as it would fit an AKS-74 so he had to sleep with it) with cheek pieces being replaced with tourniquets wrapped in electrical tape.
The rifle was nicknamed the "oar" by the troops due to its length and its looks. There was one sniper per platoon and he functioned in what we would refer to as a designated marksman or sharpshooter. During ambushes he stayed with the rear support element (PKM machinegun) and fired in support.
OK, the nitty gritty: How far did he and could he engage? He engaged past 1000 meters in support, firing at heavy weapons, trucks, and personnel. At 600-800 meters (660-880 yards) he felt that he could reliably hit a man with one shot with the SVD. The weapon? He liked it very much, and felt that it was quite accurate and effective. During training (and I have heard this exact same thing from another source) they were told that if you fired and missed your target, human nature would often cause that person to freeze for a couple seconds, due to the proximity of the shot, during this time a semi-automatic rifle allowed you to make your correction and get off a follow-up shot. He liked the rifle, and owns one here in the US now. He just wished that more than one were issued to his platoon. (Later in the war up to 6 were issued per platoon.) On the optics he felt the PSO-1 was quite servicable and thought the reticle extremely effective. This I gotta agree on, I think the PSO-1 has one of the best sniper reticles out there. It ranges easily with the choke rangefinder, provides ranging using the Mil system if you desire, has 10 Mil marks on either side for windage or lead corrections and is illuminated. I was surprised that he did not feel hindered by it being only 4x and he actually liked the extremely large Field Of View.
WardenWolf
member
All I'll say is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktaH0kdKV80&watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qluUkOXwzfI
I've heard similar stories from many, many people, and seen pictures of the targets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qluUkOXwzfI
I've heard similar stories from many, many people, and seen pictures of the targets.
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