Why a pump?

[utahminirevolver]

Long ago the military switched from single-shots, revolvers, bolt-actions, and lever-actions to semi-automatics, if not full-automatics.

Similarly, the police switched, although at a later time, from revolvers to semi-automatic handguns.

Civilians have sort of followed along. But gun-gurus, while advocating semi-auto rifles and handguns, still write that one should get a Remington 870 pump-action shotgun, even for home defense use.

Why not a Remington 1100, Mossberg 930, or other semi-automatic shotgun?

As an example, Bruce Clayton's 'Life After Doomsday' specifically recommends a 1911 handgun, an AR15 rifle, a .308NATO cartridge-firing rifle (he said some H&K model. I think a Springfield Armory M1A, looking like an M-14, would be just as good), and a Remington 870 pump-action shotgun in 12 gauge.

 

[birddog]

I own pump and autoloader shotguns. Just from personal experience, if I was to switch one of my duck/goose guns to home-defense, it would definitely be the pump. Simply put, it is 100% reliable, even when (and this is where the personal experience comes in) the action is filthy with dirt and sand. The autoloaders are very dependable too, but not as dependable under adverse conditions.

 

[kentucky_smith]

you can't make the cool chuk-chuk noise with an auto.

 

[kage genin]

I'd say for at least 2 reasons, first being reliability with different types of ammo. Semiautos can act funny with some types of shotshells. I know the inertia-operated semiauto Benelli shotguns have trouble cycling with birdshot and reduced-recoil buckshot. This may not be such a problem with gas-operated semis, but I do hear of cycling problems when they get dirty... Pump guns will feed and shoot just about anything even when caked with mud as long as you can work the action

Second is the ease with which one can change ammuniton type on-the-fly with a pump gun as opposed to a semi. If you need to quickly load up a slug, for example, just load it into the mag tube (leave it loaded one down), work the action, and you're good to go.

Semiauto rifles and handguns usually don't deal with the same differences in ammunition as shotguns do. Shotguns have all kinds of shot types, slugs, and special LEO goodies like beanbags, breeching rounds, and even teargas. Even semiauto rifles and handguns often have trouble cycling with blanks and reduced-power loads, but those more unusual rounds are't what we shoot everyday.
I can see why law enforcement absolutely must have a shotgun that can work with all kinds of loads. The Benelli M3 Super90 is a semiauto that can work in pump-action for just that reason. For home defense, I'd still go with the pump for the reliability.

 

[TrapperReady]

Pumps are dependable. They are often easier to maintain. The only autos I own which are easier to clean than an 870 are Benellis... and even then it's nearly a tie.

Furthermore, a pump will reliably cycle a wider range of ammo. Sometimes gas systems may need to be adjusted in order to function well with very heavy or very light loads. From a military/LEO standpoint, some of the non-lethal and specialty rounds may not have the oomph to cycle the action of an auto.

In my opinion (one shared by the late, great Bob Brister), there is a further important advantage... especially on game. The very nature of a pump shotgun forces you to take a slight break betwen shots and reaquire the target. With autoloader (or even O/Us or SxSs), it's easy to throw additional bad shots after a first-shot miss. When you cycle the action on a pump, it slightly disrupts the "flow" of your swing, and make each shot more distinct. In my experiencel, I know that I get lots more 2nd shot hits (assuming the first was a miss) with a pump than I do with an auto.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Some semiautos are reliable enough to use 'for serious.' In fact, the most recent new military shotgun is a Benelli semiauto. Variants of the Browning Auto 5 were used in WW2 and other theaters since, there was even a special fighting version of the A5 produced with an extended magazine and extended forearm to match that I saw a few examples of once upon a time. There were some Remington 1100s used in Vietnam, to include a few that were factory converted to allow selective fire. Remington has produced its M11, M11-48, M1100 and M11-87 semiautos in police/riot/military versions, and High Standard produced a bullpup version of its Supermatic semiauto in two models (Model 10A and Model 10B). I once had a Model 10A and still regret selling it, I carried it 'for serious' on more than one occasion. So there is demonstrably nothing wrong with semiauto shotguns.

Pumps have a couple of big advantages though. Being manually operated, they are not nearly as ammunition sensitive as selfloaders. Some users need to launch other than standard payloads- bean bag rounds, rubber bullets, baton rounds, bird bombs etc. Many unconventional rounds will not operate the action of a semiauto but easily and reliably cycle through a pump gun.

Pump guns as a rule are much less expensive than quality semiautos. That can be a big advantage for people with budgets. For example, the FNH Police Self Loading Shotgun is one of the very few I would personally consider for serious applications. Best prices I have seen for one are in the neighborhood of $800. http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/sg_selfloading.htm I like them, I want one, and if all goes well I will get one- soon as I can get the money saved up. And there is a Benelli M1S90 in the safe already that was in a similar price range several years ago- that's also one shotgun that's on the short list of semiautos I would take to a gunfight.

Yet I just purchased FNH's manually operated offering, the FNH Police Shotgun, on gunbroker for $229. CDNN is offering the 5-shot version for $219 IIRC. http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/sg_police.htm Yep, me- Mr. 870 himself- has gone astray and bought a Winchester. But with its features as offered NIB, it was too good a deal to turn down in my opinion. I already have one Winchester 1300, so one more won't hurt. My wife even thinks so.

hth answer your question,

lpl/nc

 

[pauli]

with a pump action, not feeding it "what it likes" results in a poor pattern.

with a semi auto, not feeding it "what it likes" results in not having a follow up shot available.

a large part of the vaunted flexibility of shotguns comes from the human operator. manual actions can shoot anything that fits dimensionally and doesn't break the reciever or your shoulder. semis have, by their nature, a MUCH narrower range.

 

[DHart]

As mentioned above, the pump is much less expensive and more reliable with a wide range of ammo types. But when it comes to defense use, shooting 00 Buckshot, the semi-autos may be the equal or better than a pump on reliability because of the short-stroking issue under duress. I've found my three semi autos are ultra reliable with 00 Buck. And they are so quick and easy to use, it's really remarkable. For defense use, my first choice is an 1100CM, Winchester Practical, or FN SLP loaded with 00 Buck.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Re short stroking.....

Like other software probs, the key here is training and practice. BA/UU/R solves all of those probs. After a few sessions of shooting pairs or practical COFs, any shotgunner has the moves down.

 

[DHart]

No doubt with enough training and practice the short stroking issues can fade away. Still, I'd prefer a semi-auto full of 00 Buck to a pump... the firepower is just so intense, quick, and easy to produce.

Three really quick ones in about 1/2 second starting at mid COM and moving northward to the head is fairly good assurance of surviving a potentially deadly encounter with evil. This is especially true for folks who don't have the time, benefit, experience of extensive training and practice with pumps... in those cases many tactical shotgun trainers would suggest that the semi-auto loaded with buckshot is arguably the more reliable and decisive platform. Of course, with all gun-related scenarios, the more practice and preparedness, the better! And a good pump or semi-auto 12 gauge loaded with 00 buckshot is among the best choices anyone can make for self defense, given the training and practice to use it reliably.

I've shot pumps for years but semi-autos more recently. My recent experience with semi-auto 12 gauge shotguns has shown me that they are reliable, superior defense shotguns capable of mind-boggling defensive firepower! Long reign the 12-gauge semi-auto and pump!

 

[utahminirevolver]

Thank-you for all these educational posts.

 

[New_geezer]

I think if you pulled a Mossberg 500 out of thick mud and just rinsed it off with a garden hose it would be ready to go. Many good reasons already given but don't forget cost. In addition to their other virtues, basic, reliable pumps are about as cheap a longgun as you can get and will fill many roles depending on the ammo you use. Don't discount affordability.

I thought it funny that the salesman at a Big-5 told me one of the nice things about a Mossberg 500 is you can clearly hear the chuk-chuk of a round being chambered thru a steel door

 

[Dave McCracken]

D, are you saying that an autoloader can make up for lack of expertise? Sure sounds like it.

Lack of expertise with ANY weapon amounts to suicidal carelessness when it hits the fan in one's vicinity.

FYI, after a decade (81-91) of instructing and more training as a HRT member and weapons spec, I've fired a few rounds under stressful conditions. Call it 15-20K of "Serious" ammo under realistic training conditions and competition.

Pumps, specifically the 870, are something I've trusted my life to because:

A, they've never let me down after long use.

B, I know them the way my tongue knows my teeth. They feel like a body part, not a tool.

Depending on any weapon where A&B are not true is egregious.

Any time you want to bring your shotgun to MD and try you and it out against me and my antiquated pump, let me know.....

 

[IDriveB5]

i chose a pump over an autoloader because of affordability(rather be BA/UU/R'ing than letting a top dollar gun sit in the safe...) and i know my pump will always work when i need it to. no matter what i feed it.

Any time you want to bring your shotgun to MD and try you and it out against me and my antiquated pump, let me know.....

oo oo i wanna watch

 

[Poodleshooter]

For me:
1. My Mossberg 500 weighs much less than my dad's 11-87 (handier,IMHO)
2. I can't afford any semi-auto that is reliable
3. I've seen too many 1100's and 11-87's choke on weird loads,and break down at the range.
4. I can't afford Benellis.
5. Training-wise, I'm used to the Mossberg and pump action shotguns in general

 

[ArmedBear]

Re short stroking.....

Like other software probs, the key here is training and practice. BA/UU/R solves all of those probs. After a few sessions of shooting pairs or practical COFs, any shotgunner has the moves down.

More fun way is to shoot doubles trap, 5 stand, sporting clays, etc. with a pump. It can be done. It will teach you to work the pump well and acquire multiple targets well, and it's REALLY fun when you match or beat the score of someone with a $2500 double gun with a rough 870!

 

[ArmedBear]

Pump shotguns are cheap and durable. I shoot with a guy who still occasionally uses a collector 870 from the first year they were built (1950) and it works as well as a new one. He has a closet full of them and a HUGE collection of guns, some really valuable. Loves doubles and pumps; hates semiautos.

Pump guns are not picky about ammo. Shotgun ammo varies from 250 fps non-lethal rubber riot rounds, to massive slugs at 1800 fps, and everything in between. Gas operated semiautos are not reliable with this kind of variation in ammo.

Pump guns still work when dirty. REALLY dirty. And wet. And rusty.

Semiautos need cleaning fairly often, compared to pump guns. Pumps have no O-rings or other parts that fail often.

Shotguns fire multiple projectiles (usually) so absolute rate of fire isn't the issue it is with the M-16 mouse rifle!

 

[dfariswheel]

There's one major reason for the better reliability of manually-operated shotguns over auto loaders: Ammunition.

The shotshell really hasn't changed since about 1870.
Back then they were waxed cardboard bodies, brass heads, and felt wads.
Today they're plastic bodies, brass-plated steel heads, and plastic wads.

The shotgun of 1870, (if strong enough) would work quite well with today's shells, and today's guns could certainly fire the black powder loads of then.

Why the auto loader isn't as reliable as a manual action is simply the constraints of the ammunition. The shot shell is a short, fat, straight walled case, which above all else, is SOFT.

Modern rifle ammo is usually long, thin, tapered cases, that are HARD and feed quite well into the chamber.

It's that fat, soft shotshell that just isn't as reliable as metallic cased ammo, and the auto shotgun will never be as reliable as the pump gun, unless and until the shotshell undergoes either a redesign, or a revolutionary case material.

It's past time for the shotshell to be be redesigned and upgraded.
Something in a true rimless case made of a harder plastic, possible smaller in gauge, and with a tapered case is overdue.

 

[ArmedBear]

Even brass shotgun shells, which are available, would not work in an autoloader consistently, with the current variety of 12 gauge loads.

Note that not all loads cycle a semiauto rifle or pistol, either. This includes Remington and Federal reduced-recoil hunting rounds, which aren't exactly weak, just less powerful than the standard versions.

Quality semiauto shotguns are pretty darned reliable if they're clean, lubed, and kept in good working order, and you only fire the appropriate range of loads through them. You can't really say more than that about the AR platform.

Several manufacturers have worked on making them more flexible than the once were, with some success. But shotshells still present a bewildering array of specs for a given gauge, and that's WHY the military has shotguns -- to fire oddball loads. They're not a mainstream military weapon.

 

[DHart]

Dave... you must have misunderstood my comments. What I was trying to express is that for those who haven't extensive training and practice with pumps, a semi-auto may be more reliable. This is only from the fact that sometimes under extreme duress some folks tend to short stroke or even forget to pump altogether. In addition, pumping while in awkward positions, shooting around corners, while prone, etc. can be very difficult to do well, if at all. In addition to that, some people are physically challenged to operate a pump shotgun well. This is what makes extensive training perhaps even more important with pumps than with semi-autos.

In conversation with a couple of tactical shotgun instructors, my understanding is that there tend to be more failures to function during the stress of training associated with short stroking pumps than with failed semi-autos. And of course as I mentioned before, semi-autos can be exceptionally reliable when well maintained and using full charge ammo.

I would never suggest anyone use a semi auto if they aren't inclined to maintain the gun well and feed it proper ammo. Nor do I recommend gun ownership of any kind to someone who is unable or unwilling to acquire the appropriate knowledge and skill.

As mentioned by many, the pump is a more reliable choice for feeding a wide variety of ammo types and if attention to cleanliness and maintenance cannot or will not be given. I have and enjoy pump shotguns. But I prefer the semi auto for home defense because I maintain mine well, load them with full charge 00 buck, and know that they run well. I like the simplicity of only having to click off the safety and just keep pulling the trigger. I like that I can fire them in a variety of positions which would be very hard to operate a pump well. And I like the fact that if need be I can (and have) fired my semi-autos one handed with full reliability. (Gas-operated autos can do this, while inertia operated semis can jam if they aren't given a very solid hold.

As regards expertise, no I never suggested that expertise is less important than weapon selection... simply that the argument can be made that someone who doesn't have extensive training with a pump might find that the semi-auto's simpler functional procedures may increase reliability by removing the need to pump and the need to pump properly... (it's a given that the user should attend to keeping said semi-auto well maintained and use tested ammo). I did mention that "Of course, with all gun-related scenarios, the more practice and preparedness, the better!"

 

[pete f]

lets just speed, reliability, cost, flexiblitity all reside inthe pumps favor.

as far as speed, a seasoned pump shooter can rip of the same number of AIMED shots just as fast as seasoned auto shooter

reliabilty. I have seen 870's full of mud and water and rubbish still work.

239 bucks for a utterly reliable 870 express.

I know they say they can do it, but i have never seen a auto that can shoot a quail load, a slug, a 2 ounce 3 inch turkey load, a rubber bullet load and a high base buck shot load all in a row, all without stalling. 870's have no idea that ain;t the way it is supposed to be

 

[DHart]

As with all choices we face in life, whenever you make a choice of any kind, you must always give something up for everything you gain. Nothing comes without a cost. When it comes to versatility of fodder, functioning when dirty and yucky, and low price, no one would argue against the pump reigning supreme!

 

[Dave McCracken]

Perhaps I did misunderstand,D, the prob with these boards is so much info is not easy to communicate by the printed word. My apologies if I did.

Armed Bear, the shooting pairs I mentioned include trap doubles, skeet doubles, etc. Disintegrating a target moving on one vector and speed, then another on a different vector and possibly different speed in a short time frame is great practice for "Serious" use.

 

[DHart]

Dave... no problem... thankfully, a clarification was helpful. Though I'd pick any of my semi-autos (1100CM, Winchester Practical, FN SLP) as my first choice for regular "home defense" use, if I wanted to go out and blast through an odd variety of all manner of shotgun shells or go into combat situations where I wouldn't be able to clean a shotgun or wouldn't be able to shoot full charge 00 buck, I would choose a pump!

Under the controlled environment and conditions of home defense use, I prefer the semi-auto stoked with standard power 2 3/4" Remington 00 Buck. And I would be the first to suggest that others choose whatever design they are most comfortable using after they carefully consider the many variables which should be considered before deciding between a pump or a semi-auto for self defense. I feel fortunate to be able to afford copies of both designs to choose between, depending on the task at hand. Neither design is a perfect replacement for the other... that's why both can happily co-exist! (Kind of the same reason why 9mm and .45 acp can each thrive co-existing with each other, or revolvers and semi-auto pistols can do the same.) Isn't is nice to live where we can so easily and freely choose from among these awesome choices!

 

[Fred Fuller]

DHart,

Well said. I think the enthusiasm of a new convert overwhelmed you briefly... 8^).

lpl/nc