Push feed vs Controlled round feed: When did the Push feed fail you?

[DocRock]

Never.

 

[Slamfire]

This really isn't true. Elephant bulls are generally management hunts in various nature reserves. There are certainly disreputable places that just drop lions into small concessions, but there are also giant concessions that have native populations of lion, leopard, rhino, and cape buffalo. CV's concession is 240,000 contiguous acres low fenced for example.

If you want to kill an elephant to prove the superiority of your controlled round feed rifle, you better hurry. They are not going to last long.

World Elephant Day

Elephant numbers have dropped by 62% over the last decade, and they could be mostly extinct by the end of the next decade. An estimated 100 African elephants are killed each day by poachers seeking ivory, meat and body parts, leaving only 400,000 remaining. An insatiable lust for ivory products in the Asian market makes the illegal ivory trade extremely profitable, and has led to the slaughter of tens of thousands of African elephants. Between 2010 and 2014, the price of ivory in China tripled, driving illicit poaching through the roof. If the elephants are to survive, the demand for ivory must be stopped . As of 2011, the world is losing more elephants than the population can reproduce, threatening the future of African elephants across the continent. Bull elephants with big tusks are the main targets and their numbers have been diminished to less than half of the females. Female African elephants have tusks and are also killed, which has a terrible effect on the stability of elephant societies, leaving an increasing number of orphaned baby elephants. There are still more African elephants being killed for ivory than are being born . . .

The Asian elephant, whose habitat ranges over 13 countries across Asia, is an endangered species with less than 40,000 remaining worldwide – less than a tenth of the African elephant population. Wild Asian elephants suffer severe habitat loss in some of the most densely human-populated regions on the planet. Their traditional territories and migration routes have been fragmented by development, highways and industrial mono-crops such as palm oil and rubber tree plantations, which has destroyed millions of hectares of forest ecosystems. With no access to their natural habitat, elephants are forced into deadly confrontations with humans where neither species wins. Asian elephants are also poached for their ivory tusks, meat and body parts while baby elephants are captured from the wild and sold into the tourism industry

I predict there are people reading the posts in this thread who will live long enough to see the extinction of the elephant.

 

[someguy2800]

I've had one mishap with a Tikka T3 that a controlled feed rifle would have absolutely prevented. I was tracking a wounded buck that my father in law had shot. When we found it, it was struggling to its feet about 50 yards in front of us and I shot once and missed. I jacked the spent round out and started to push a new round in the chamber and at the same time I was stepping around a tree to try to get a better line of sight I stumbled a little. I accidently pulled the bolt all the way back again and picked up a 2nd round from the magazine and now had a double feed. Compounding this the ejection port on a T3 is really small so I could not clear it through the ejection port. I struggled with it for a few seconds and finally had to drop the magazine to clear it. By that time the deer was long gone and we had to track it down again. Mr Grizz would have eaten me for sure.

 

[Aletheia]

So, someguy, from that story it looks like operator error was more at fault for that "mishap" than was the fact it was a push feed. Operator error is never the fault of the gun design, and gun design can never completely eliminate the possibility of operator error.

 

[Llama Bob]

If you want to kill an elephant to prove the superiority of your controlled round feed rifle, you better hurry. They are not going to last long.

World Elephant Day

You might want to spend some time looking at actual elephant populations. There are about 300,000 elephants in southern Africa, and rising. In fact the need for elephant control is so high there are areas trying to figure out contraception (!!!).

And of course the areas where hunting is allowed do the best, because trophy fees provide an economic incentive to keep around animals that are otherwise rather destructive and provides an alternative to poaching. And hunting operations provide defacto security for the herds.

 

[Llama Bob]

So, someguy, from that story it looks like operator error was more at fault for that "mishap" than was the fact it was a push feed. Operator error is never the fault of the gun design, and gun design can never completely eliminate the possibility of operator error.

When a tool fails in a common way, and then cannot even be fixed, that IS the tool's fault. As he said, he stumbled. That's the sort of thing that happens in the real world. A rifle that fails so badly it requires disassembly in that case is a death trap around dangerous game.

 

[someguy2800]

So, someguy, from that story it looks like operator error was more at fault for that "mishap" than was the fact it was a push feed. Operator error is never the fault of the gun design, and gun design can never completely eliminate the possibility of operator error.

Of course it is but this is the operator error that controlled round feed is designed to prevent. That is like saying that seat belts and air bags are not needed because a car will only crash due to operator error.

 

[cdb1]

Compounding this the ejection port on a T3 is really small so I could not clear it through the ejection port.

Ejection port size is more important to me then CRF vs PF. Even though the port is a little larger on the T3x it’s still small compared to a M70, Model 700 Savage 10/110, Vanguard/Howa 1500, etc. I believe Tikka’s are outstanding rifles but I can’t get past the small ejection port.

On the subject of elephants you read they are on the brink of extinction or there are too many. Is the truth somewhere in between? I tend to believe that elephants have been extirpated from much of their traditional range but also believe there are some areas where there are serious over population issues.

 

[someguy2800]

Ejection port size is more important to me then CRF vs PF. Even though the port is a little larger on the T3x it’s still small compared to a M70, Model 700 Savage 10/110, Vanguard/Howa 1500, etc. I believe Tikka’s are outstanding rifle but I can’t get past the small ejection port.

Admittedly I always thought it was a non issue until that day. If I had done the same thing with a 700 it probably would have been a 5 second malfunction rather than a 20 second one.

 

[mcb]

After thinking about it I realize that a thread very similar to this one many years ago put me off the whole PF vs CRF and I resolved the conflict in my mind by not hunting with a bolt gun at all. I have, in the past 30+ years of deer hunting, taken one deer with a bolt action and lot of deer with actions other than a bolt action. I own several bolt guns and shoot them on occasion but almost never use them for hunting...

 

[Llama Bob]

On the subject of elephants you read they are on the brink of extinction or there are too many. Is the truth somewhere in between? I tend to believe that elephants have been extirpated from much of their traditional range but also believe there are some areas where there are serious over population issues.

It's not really an either/or thing. In areas where they are managed and hunted, they tend to overpopulate. The same effect can be achieved with management without hunting, but you literally have to dedicate army units to protect them and it's a money losing proposition. The places where they are declining are where they are not hunted/managed, where the locals see every elephant as a pest and those with tusks are pests with 50 grand strapped to their faces. Those elephants get poached for obvious economic reasons.

 

[Slamfire]

You might want to spend some time looking at actual elephant populations. There are about 300,000 elephants in southern Africa, and rising. In fact the need for elephant control is so high there are areas trying to figure out contraception (!!!).

And of course the areas where hunting is allowed do the best, because trophy fees provide an economic incentive to keep around animals that are otherwise rather destructive and provides an alternative to poaching. And hunting operations provide defacto security for the herds.

Well here you are, a dream elephant hunt.

https://www.huntinafrica.com/elephant-hunting

Focussed Elephant hunts are normally 10 days hunts and you can expect to pay around $40,000 for your trophy fee for a big Tusker between 40 to 70 pounds. Book well in advance - 18 to 24 months to avoid disappointment. Expect to pay around $30,000 for Elephant trophy fees for Elephants with tusks around 40 Pounds. Day fees at the Letaba River camp: Buff @ $600/day+ 14% government taxes and for Elephant $1500/day + 14% government taxes

Lets see, 10 days minimum plus Government taxes $17,000. And then the elephant fee, a big one, that makes it $57,000. I don't see rental car, food, clothing, etc in this, maybe it is part of the $1500 per day,maybe not. Airfare has to be a couple of thousand, plus hotels while you are in the big city. No one hops off an international flight ready to go, you have to spend time getting your body on local time. That will take about two days. I expect that big elephant hunting trip, the one which proves controlled round feed is superior to push feed, will cost about $100,000 from the day you leave your home till the day you get back.

Now, if you can afford to rent a Caribbean Island for $170,000 a day, like Melinda Gates, than a little elephant trip is just pocket change. So, when are you booking, and will you post the pictures?

 

[taliv]

After thinking about it I realize that a thread very similar to this one many years ago put me off the whole PF vs CRF and I resolved the conflict in my mind by not hunting with a bolt gun at all. I have, in the past 30+ years of deer hunting, taken one deer with a bolt action and lot of deer with actions other than a bolt action. I own several bolt guns and shoot them on occasion but almost never use them for hunting...

Are there any CRF gas guns?

 

[mcb]

Are there any CRF gas guns?

Most modern semi-auto pistols are CRF but I an struggling to think of an semi-auto rifle that is.

The M2 is sort of a control round feed semi-auto but not in a traditional sense.

 

[Llama Bob]

OMG elephant hunts are, like, SO expensive!

Yeah, no doubt. But there's plenty of hunts for which a CRF rifle is necessary safety equipment that cost very little. For example, there are huge numbers of extra bear tags for the Grand Mesa area of Colorado, and it's an excellent area to predator call in bears even though you can't use electronic calls. It's a dirt cheap hunt (only $100 out of state) and nicely timed in September when the place isn't crawling with hunters.

But you would not want to find yourself in the situation that someguy2800's Tika put him in when a hungry bear comes to your call. Backup is good too, as with most DG hunts.