Push feed vs Controlled round feed: When did the Push feed fail you?

[IdaD]

I've never had a problem with either style, it wouldn't be something I'd be concerned about if I were choosing between a couple of rifles.

 

[The Glockodile]

Lots of the recent rifles clothed in immense paramilitary bombproof hairy shemagh - wearing tacticulosity are of push - feed design, for what it's worth :lolz:

 

[taliv]

I've read enough folk complaining how custom action X, Y, or Z won't feed or extract or eject reliably all the time under stress to believe that PRS action choice isn't based on PF or CRF as much as it's based on ejection port and bolt handle locations, integral rails, and Rem700 stock / trigger compatibility, and then folk tune the hell out of the action / mags to get it reliable under shooting stress.

It is nice to see custom CRF being offered and used and refined.

Yep but my point was if CRF magically fixed feeding extraction and ejection issues, everyone would have moved to it years ago. It’s not like cost of adding CRF is a major factor in a $1500 action and $5000 build.

 

[d2wing]

Can't recall a failure of push feed, did have failure to extract on a semi auto CRF. If one was really better they would all have it. Some things only sell because people imagine they are better. That's why we have so many choices.

 

[Micro]

I've got both. I've never had a problem with either if I did my part. But I can jam both if I try, fairly easily.

I hear about people saying CRF allows a cartridge to pop up from the magazine behind the extractor so you have full control all the time. But I've never seen a CRF gun that does that. (Maybe they exist, but I've never seen one.) My Swedish Mauser, for instance, doesn't do that. It's a process of sliding up behind the extractor as the bolt is closed. And in about the first half of the closing action, the extractor has very little control over the round so that if I draw the bolt back during this point I can jam it. I've gotten jams that were harder to clear on CRF rifles than any jams I've ever gotten on push feed bolts. Both can jam if you short stroke.

Also, there used to be an article on the interweb that talked about the Remington 700 extractor actually being very strong and having about 95% of the extracting strength of a claw extractor. I looked for it but can't find it. I've put a lot of rounds through 700s and never had and extractor failure. In fact, the only extractor failure I've ever seen on a bolt action was on a Weather Vanguard, and that wasn't mine. The tiny roll pin holding the extractor in failed. I've seen several extractor failures on AR-15s.

 

[Elkins45]

CRF with a massive claw extractor, Mauser action, has been THE standard for dangerous game rifles in Africa for over 100 years. When hunters lives are literally on the line, when they are about to “see the elephant”, they choose CRF.

Many of them actually choose break action double rifles.

Are you quoting something Jeff Cooper once wrote?

All this discussion is just pointless. I love my Mauser actions but I’ve never had an issue with a push feed rifle. From my experience both are 100% reliable. It’s hard to improve on 100%. A difference which makes no difference is no difference.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

Many of them actually choose break action double rifles.

Are you quoting something Jeff Cooper once wrote?

All this discussion is just pointless. I love my Mauser actions but I’ve never had an issue with a push feed rifle. From my experience both are 100% reliable. It’s hard to improve on 100%. A difference which makes no difference is no difference.

Hard to get more dependable and fast than a double rifle.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Hard to get more dependable and fast than a double rifle.

Not to mention they are the ultimate snap shooting platform once you get comfortable with them.

 

[taliv]

Hard to get more dependable and fast than a double rifle.

Unless you need 3 shots

 

[mcb]

Unless you need 3 shots

The most reliable second shot is a double rifle, the most reliable third shot is your buddies double rifle. That is why you bring along a couple trusted buddies with their double rifles too. Hunting dangerous game is not a solo activity for most wise hunters.

 

[Llama Bob]

That may be true as a client in Africa and for certain bear hunts in the US. But it does nothing for the more common case of either hunting bears solo on public land, or simply covering the situation where you've shot an elk and a bear comes to the dinner bell (shot). It's hard to imagine paying someone to guard you with a double in either situation and doubles make poor rifles for western spot and stalk.

Doubles are awful slow after the 2nd shot, There's no way around that. With modern technology the magnumized big bore levers in .50-110, .45-90, and the Alaskan and Turnbull cartridges are probably really a better solution for a stopping rifle than doubles, but they aren't traditional and only reach stopping rifle power levels with modern steel and powders and careful loading. They are essentially as fast as doubles and can hold tons of shots if you want.

The CRF bolt rifle is an ideal solution for the hunter who may encounter bears but needs reach. This is the common problem facing many western US hunters.

 

[Elkins45]

I’m curious if there are any documented cases of an American hunter dying because their push feed rifle malfunctioned?

 

[Nature Boy]

Unless you need 3 shots

Unless you are so damn good that you only need one shot, making all of this feeding nonsense a waste of time and you build a rifle around that theory

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/300-prc-or-30-nosler.868175/

Interestingly enough, the action is a FN Mauser single shot target action, so is it really a CRF? Probably not.

 

[mcb]

Unless you are so damn good that you only need one shot, making all of this feeding nonsense a waste of time and you build a rifle around that theory

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/300-prc-or-30-nosler.868175/

Interestingly enough, the action is a FN Mauser single shot target action, so is it really a CRF? Probably not.

View attachment 1000608

Interesting, does the extractor have to snap over the rim every time or does the single feed tray sit low enough to allow it to slide up the bolt face behind the extractor.

 

[Nature Boy]

Interesting, does the extractor have to snap over the rim every time or does the single feed tray sit low enough to allow it to slide up the bolt face behind the extractor.

It snaps over the case rim.

As a matter of fact, I have an FN SPR, an 03A3 sporter and an ARC Mausingfield. They have a combined ~15,000 single fed, snap over the rim rounds with nary an issue. Not one. Ever.

 

[Llama Bob]

I’m curious if there are any documented cases of an American hunter dying because their push feed rifle malfunctioned?

I don't actually know the rifle type, but supposedly Phillip Henry Vetter was the first white man killed by a bear in Wyoming. He died with two empty cases and a rifle with a third jammed in the chamber beside him. Given the date (early 1890s) it was more likely a lever action than a bolt rifle. He's something of a folk figure for whatever reason.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Here is a general question about double rifles and their true prevalence in Africa.

Just how common are double rifles in Africa? They have always been expensive and as such only a highly successful PH or service could afford one or more of them. It would seem to me the less costly bolt action would be more common, even if it is at least theoretically, less reliable. I was always under the impression doubles were uncommon even in Africa.

I get double rifles are often associated with African hunting but is that just an over romanticized notion?

 

[Elkins45]

Here is a general question about double rifles and their true prevalence in Africa.

Just how common are double rifles in Africa? They have always been expensive and as such only a highly successful PH or service could afford one or more of them. It would seem to me the less costly bolt action would be more common, even if it is at least theoretically, less reliable. I was always under the impression doubles were uncommon even in Africa.

I get double rifles are often associated with African hunting but is that just an over romanticized notion?

You mean every African hunter doesn’t fly to London for a bespoke stock fitting from Holland’s?

 

[Llama Bob]

Here is a general question about double rifles and their true prevalence in Africa.

Just how common are double rifles in Africa? They have always been expensive and as such only a highly successful PH or service could afford one or more of them. It would seem to me the less costly bolt action would be more common, even if it is at least theoretically, less reliable. I was always under the impression doubles were uncommon even in Africa.

I get double rifles are often associated with African hunting but is that just an over romanticized notion?

Definitely. The bulk of the game control work is done with bolt actions in various cartridges. The .404 was popular at one point, and of course the .458WM.

Also, double rifles have a nasty problem that doesn't get talked about enough - doubling. If it happens with a .375, it just hurts. With a .500NE, there's a good chance of injury. Bigger than that, it's almost certain. Even some very expensive rifles have problems.

 

[Seamaster31]

I know one PH that carries a double for lion hunts, and a few that carry them for elephant. They are good for close work but they are heavy and expensive. Mostly I have seen bolt action rifles with most of the bluing worn off carried by PH's.

 

[troy fairweather]

Added another crf to the horde today, picked up a pre 64 model 70.

 

[Slamfire]

Here is a general question about double rifles and their true prevalence in Africa.

Just how common are double rifles in Africa? They have always been expensive and as such only a highly successful PH or service could afford one or more of them. It would seem to me the less costly bolt action would be more common, even if it is at least theoretically, less reliable. I was always under the impression doubles were uncommon even in Africa.

I get double rifles are often associated with African hunting but is that just an over romanticized notion?

I think the days of going out and blasting elephants is pretty much something you are only going to read about, or see in old movies. Lets see, rhino's are about extinct. Museums have taken the real rhino horns off their exhibits because thieves have broken in and sawed off the horns. Rhino horn is very expensive from what I have heard. And then about the use of elephant guns, go ask the poachers who are driving the animals to extinction. I would guess they use AK 47's.

From what I heard, only in the National Parks do the animals run free. Everywhere else it is barbed wire. And lions are bred in lion farms for game hunting. The lion is taken to the spot of execution and let go. The hunter who paid for the experience then blasts a confused animal who is looking around for its food bowl.

Anyone who wants to experience real danger, travel to Times Square in New York and avoid the bullets flying around.

 

[entropy]

Here is a general question about double rifles and their true prevalence in Africa.

Just how common are double rifles in Africa? They have always been expensive and as such only a highly successful PH or service could afford one or more of them. It would seem to me the less costly bolt action would be more common, even if it is at least theoretically, less reliable. I was always under the impression doubles were uncommon even in Africa.

I get double rifles are often associated with African hunting but is that just an over romanticized notion?

See below. From the few hunters I know who have been to Africa, the consensus is that bolt actions for everything but the Big 5 is fine, and after a PH has vetted your shooting with the bolt action rifle you want to use on the Big 5, then no worries. But, yes, doubles are a bit romanticized. We have Selous, Bell, and Capstick to thank for that. In the one safari book Hemingway wrote, we learn not to let your wife have a 6.5 Mannlicher while you are standing off with a wounded Cape Buffalo.

You mean every African hunter doesn’t fly to London for a bespoke stock fitting from Holland’s?

No, but some safari hunters fly from London after being fit at H&H, and pick up a used double to give to the PH as a tip, or present them their rifle at the end of the hunt.

My favorite PH, Finn Aagard, used both; He had a .375 H&H double he absolutely loved, and a .458 Win. bolt, plus numerous lighter rifles for Plains game.

 

[MarshallDodge]

It snaps over the case rim.

As a matter of fact, I have an FN SPR, an 03A3 sporter and an ARC Mausingfield. They have a combined ~15,000 single fed, snap over the rim rounds with nary an issue. Not one. Ever.

My FN Patrol doesn't feed very well but I think it is a magazine issue.

 

[Llama Bob]

I think the days of going out and blasting elephants is pretty much something you are only going to read about, or see in old movies. Lets see, rhino's are about extinct. Museums have taken the real rhino horns off their exhibits because thieves have broken in and sawed off the horns. Rhino horn is very expensive from what I have heard. And then about the use of elephant guns, go ask the poachers who are driving the animals to extinction. I would guess they use AK 47's.

From what I heard, only in the National Parks do the animals run free. Everywhere else it is barbed wire. And lions are bred in lion farms for game hunting. The lion is taken to the spot of execution and let go. The hunter who paid for the experience then blasts a confused animal who is looking around for its food bowl.

Anyone who wants to experience real danger, travel to Times Square in New York and avoid the bullets flying around.

This really isn't true. Elephant bulls are generally management hunts in various nature reserves. There are certainly disreputable places that just drop lions into small concessions, but there are also giant concessions that have native populations of lion, leopard, rhino, and cape buffalo. CV's concession is 240,000 contiguous acres low fenced for example.