Question about my Type I Richards Conversion Reproduction

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Ephraim Kibbey

Ephraim Kibbey

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So this has been in my safe for about 10 years.
Conv2.jpg
I bought it on GB as an ASM Richards Conversion.
I knew very little about conversions back then.
Since then I have read posts by Hoof Hearted, Strawhat and Coffinmaker as well as buying McDowell's book so I now have the basics.
After a recent series of posts on them, I decided to get this out and take another look at it.
It has a straight 1861 type cylinder, the Type I sighted conversion ring with floating firing pin and the original type of ejector housing that fits into the loading lever opening.
The markings are tiny and very sparse with "38 SPECIAL" above the wedge screw and "NAVY ARMS" under the barrel.
Conv3.jpg
There are NO Italian Proofs or Date Code!
There is no "ASM," its pyramid logo or full name!
The "NAVY ARMS" is uncharacteristically alone with no address.

I have learned that besides Armi San Marco marked versions of their various Colt Conversions/Open Tops, ASM sold parts to American Frontier Firearms (AFF) of California and to American Western Arms (AWA) of Florida.

I know that EMF, Cimarron and Traditions all imported ASM conversion models which I assume would have been proofed in Italy.

Traditions catalogs list lots of conversion models including an 1861 as shown in the photo from a catalog I ordered on Ebay today but have yet to receive:
Traditions Catalog ASM Conversions List 1999.jpg
I'll add a better close up picture of the list when I get the catalog!!!
I have not yet found a Navy Arms catalog of the correct time frame (late 1990's-early 2000's) with conversions listed.

My question (finally) is who assembled MY revolver?

Did Navy Arms assemble some on their own or did they buy from AFF or AWA devoid of their markings or an as yet undiscovered gunsmith?
 
hawg said:
Have you removed the ejector rod housing and looked for markings under it?
Click to expand...
No, but ASM/Traditions, ASM and AWA cartridge guns are marked in VERY TINY print on the underside of the barrel with only the ejector slide tab covering the name. I checked under the tab. The "NAVY ARMS" is in EXACTLY" the right place but all by itself!

hawg said:
The original type I conversion in .38 didn't have the sight on the ring.
Click to expand...
True, this is a "Fantasy Conversion!" But a really NICE one!!! McDowell mentions some .38 1861 Navy prototypes existing so I will just have to pretend I have one of those.

ASM was the first, after the expert gunsmiths like Anderson and Hoof Hearted, to produce Colt conversions.
To this day ASM was/is the only Company to make the Richards Type I conversions.
Uberti makes Richards Type II's with hammer notch rear sight and Open Top/Late Conversions with barrel rear sight but not a Type I.

I just bought another "Fantasy" conversion.
Guns America had an Anderson AFF 1851 barrel .44 Richards Type I style conversion that said "BUY ME PLEASE" and I could not refuse for $499!
Especially after getting chided for not jumping on the Traditions/ASM Type I .44 on GB earlier this month.
I know!! I know!!!! 1851 barrels were not used on type ones and were not in .44 but I haven't found an ASM/AFF/AWA .38 in an Open Top/Late Style Conversion with the sight on the barrel.
I'll keep looking!
Uberti conversions abound but they are still being made, where as there will never be any more ASMs, AFFs or AWAs made.
I have not received the new revolver yet but here are some of the seller's pics:
wm_16101306.jpg wm_16101309.jpg wm_16101310.jpg
 
hawg said:
The original type I conversion in .38 didn't have the sight on the ring.
Click to expand...


Hang,


I was not aware any of the Richards conversions offered in anything besides 44 Colt. The Richards conversion was only done on the Colt 1860, or so I thought.


Kevin
 
Yep, the Richards Type I and II were only done on the 1860. All the other conversions were Richards-Mason. The ASM guns 'pass' for a 1861 Richards-Mason from a distance because the originals also used a reshaped percussion barrel but with the newer style Richards-Mason ejector. Or they would were it not for the Army grip frame. This stuff gets complicated.
 
Here are enlargements of the 1999 Traditions Catalog tables of ASM 1873 and Conversion offerings:
Traditions 1999 Catalog Conversions and 1873s 1.jpg Traditions 1999 Catalog Conversions and 1873s 2.jpg
The ASM conversions are not in the 1998 or 2000 Traditions Catalogs and are marked "NEW" in the 1999 Catalog!
 
Here are pictures from a Navy Arms Catalog for 2000 of the pages with information about ASM (parts assembled in the US?) Richards Type I Conversions and Open Tops:
Cover NA 2000.jpg Page 4 Top Conversions NA 2000.jpg Page 4 Bottom Conversions NA 2000.jpg Price List NA 2000 a.jpg Price List NA 2000 b.jpg
 
I am picking up my AFF 1851 Richards Type I .44 Caliber Fantasy Conversion tonight!
Pictures will follow.
 
Here is the new (to me) American Frontier Firearms Fantasy Conversion:
AFFe.jpg AFFc.jpg AFFd.jpg AFFg.jpg AFFf.jpg

On the top of the barrel - "ADDRESS AMERICAN FRONTIER USA":
AFFa.jpg

On bottom of the barrel - "AFF AGUANGA CA" (the town in California where Anderson had his shop)
AFFb.jpg

The cylinder has the Naval Battle of Campeche engraving and "PATENT No" and there are serial numbers on the frame and barrel but there is no caliber marking.
While it was sold as a .44, my crude eyeball and ruler measurement of the muzzle makes me doubt that!!!
I guess I need to invest in a micrometer!

The Barrel is a stylized "1851" octagonal shape but with no loading port or rammer opening.
The Ejector is of the later "Mason" bolt-on type.

The Barrel, Ejector, Cylinder, Trigger Guard and Grip Strap are beautifully blued.
The Frame, Conversion Ring/Sight, Hammer and Trigger are Case Colored.
The Navy size Grips are walnut.

Here is what GunDigest has about the guns produced by AFF.
1. "1860 Richards Army Model,"
2. "Richards & Mason Conversion 1851 Navy Standard Model"
3. "1871, 72 Open Top Standard Model"
After clicking the link below, click on each of the three rectangular Gun Type internal links to see specs and pictures (of the later two types. )
https://gunvalues.gundigest.com/american-frontier-firearms/

Here is a picture of an AFF 1860 Army Conversion:
1860 Army 2.jpg
 
Last edited:
I still lack a micrometer, Sorry.
I tried a .38 Special cartridge in the cylinder chamber and it was VERY loose ergo I have a .44 Colt as that is the only other caliber that AFF Cartridge conversions came in.
As for the specs on bore size, I have not seen that specified in any of the very sparse AFF literature I have found.
I guess I will see if Amazon Early Access Black Friday Sales have a micrometer they are giving away!?!
 
If it's anything like mine you will have to remove the battery after you use it or it will run down even with it turned off.
 
I picked up a copy of the 1999 Standard Catalog of Firearms (9th Ed.) by Ned Schwing.
On pages 96 & 97, it lists the products offered by American Frontier Firearms (AFF.)
1871-72 Open Top Standard Model:
..... .38 or .44 caliber, Non-rebated cylinder, 7.5 or 8" round barrel with sight, Blued, Silver plated Trigger guard and backstrap and Walnut grips.
1871-72 Open Top Tiffany Model:
..... as above with addition barrel lengths of 4.75 or 5.5", Engraved with Tiffany grips in gold and silver finish
Richards 1860 Army Conversion Standard Model:
..... .38 or .44 caliber, rebated cylinder with or without rammer opening ejector, 4.75, 5.5 or 7.5" round barrel, Blued with Silver plated trigger guard and backstrap and Walnut grips.
Richards 1851 Conversion Standard Model:
..... .38 or .44 caliber, non-rebated cylinder, 4.75, 5.5 or 7.5 octagonal barrel with rammer assembly, no ejector, Blued with Blued trigger guard and backstrap and Walnut grips.
Richards & Mason Conversion 1851 Navy Standard Model:
..... .38 or .44 caliber, Mason style ejector, non-rebated cylinder, 4.75, 5.5 or 7.5" octagonal barrel, Blued with blued trigger guard and backstrap and Walnut grips.
Remington New Model Army Standard:
..... .38, .44 or .45 caliber, 5.5, 7.5 or 8" octagonal barrel, Blued with ejector, loading gate and government cartouche on the left Walnut grip.
Remington New Model Standard:
..... .38, .44 or .45 caliber, 5.5 or 7.5" octagonal barrel, with or without ejector and Walnut grips.
1871-72 Pocket Model:
..... .32 caliber five shot based on the 1862 Police Model, 4.75 0r 5.5" round barrel with sight, Blued with silver plated trigger guard and backstrap and either Walnut or Tiffany grips.
Pocket Richards & Mason Navy Conversion:
..... .32 caliber, non-rebated five shot cylinder, 4.75 or 5.5" round barrel, Mason style ejector, Blued with Silver plated trigger guard and backstrap and Walnut grips.
Pocket Richards Conversion Model:
..... .32 caliber, rebated five shot cylinder, 4.75 or 5.5" round barrel, Mason style ejector, Blued with Silver plated trigger guard and backstrap and Walnut grips.
Pocket Remington:
..... .22, .32 or .38 caliber, 3.5" barrel, with or without ejector or gate, Blued with Walnut grips.

AFF in 1999 Standard Cat of Firearms.jpg
 
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