I just saw on Personal Defense TV, a segment debating bird shot vs. buck shot. The usual argument for bird shot was presented about it not going through walls. I know Ayoob has disagreed with this in the pass, recommending buck. I am wondering what the latest thinking on the subject is from Ayoob and others. I have a lot of respect for Ayoob, so I am in the buck shot camp; however I always try to be open minded in respect to the latest trends. Thanks in advance.
Question for Ayoob et al, bird shot vs. buck
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Preacherman
Member
It's a factor of range as much as anything. Under 5 yards or so, the shot is in a solid mass, just beginning to open up. If it hits drywall in that solid mass, it's going through - no question about it. If you want to give an ER doctor screaming fits, ask him what happens when a BG is hit by such a mass at point-blank range. It breaks up into its component pellets inside him, and they bounce all over the place . . . almost impossible to find them all and get them out. Nasty!
Buckshot will also penetrate drywall at any reasonable range, as will any modern projectile. Oddly enough, .223 lightweight bullets are among the least over-penetrative round in drywall.
Buckshot will also penetrate drywall at any reasonable range, as will any modern projectile. Oddly enough, .223 lightweight bullets are among the least over-penetrative round in drywall.
I posted a thread similar to this one a couple of weeks ago, asking about the best HD load for a 12ga. I got a multitude of responses, but the overwhelming majority tends to agree that buckshot is the way to go.
Sure, birdshot will put a hurtin' on a BG, but you're going to have significantly less penetrating force, and consequently you might not bring him down right away. I've read several stories of intruders getting hit with a couple rounds of birdshot, and still being completely concious. Hurting like a mofo I'm sure, but otherwise "ok" considering they were just hit with a 12ga round. In one case, the BG was able to walk to the ambulance when it arrived! Now, that may have been a very rare occurance, but if I have to shoot someone, I don't intend to allow them the opportunity to get back up. Getting up means still being able to reach a weapon and attack me and my family. Not gonna happen on my watch.
In order to penetrate someone far enough to ensure a lethal hit, you have to take the risk of going through wall or two. If you are trained and familiar with the weapon and the ammo you're using, that risk is minimized quite a bit. I'd say that 00 or #1 buck in any flavor is your best choice. I'm no guru, I'm just going off of what I've read/been told by people far more experianced than I am....I can tell you this though - Federal 00 buck will be in my HD gun's mag, with a few extras and some slugs waiting in the sidesaddle.
Sure, birdshot will put a hurtin' on a BG, but you're going to have significantly less penetrating force, and consequently you might not bring him down right away. I've read several stories of intruders getting hit with a couple rounds of birdshot, and still being completely concious. Hurting like a mofo I'm sure, but otherwise "ok" considering they were just hit with a 12ga round. In one case, the BG was able to walk to the ambulance when it arrived! Now, that may have been a very rare occurance, but if I have to shoot someone, I don't intend to allow them the opportunity to get back up. Getting up means still being able to reach a weapon and attack me and my family. Not gonna happen on my watch.
In order to penetrate someone far enough to ensure a lethal hit, you have to take the risk of going through wall or two. If you are trained and familiar with the weapon and the ammo you're using, that risk is minimized quite a bit. I'd say that 00 or #1 buck in any flavor is your best choice. I'm no guru, I'm just going off of what I've read/been told by people far more experianced than I am....I can tell you this though - Federal 00 buck will be in my HD gun's mag, with a few extras and some slugs waiting in the sidesaddle.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Louis Awerbuck has one answer- slugs. Period. Says he's not smart enough to keep track of more than one kind of ammunition for a shotgun, so he just uses slugs. Now I think he's kidding about that 'not bright enough' stuff, he seems plenty smart to me. But that's what he says anyway. Could be he just likes slugs. I know one other person here on THR, not quite as famous as Louis, that prefers nothing but slugs too.
Mas doesn't get by this area often as far as i know- I'll see if I can let him know his bell has been rung over here. Stay tuned...
lpl/nc
Mas doesn't get by this area often as far as i know- I'll see if I can let him know his bell has been rung over here. Stay tuned...
lpl/nc
Diamondback6
Member
When I've seen Master Ayoob online of late, sirs, it's usually over at AmBack.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Oh, Mas is a member here on THR too. Don't know that he gets by the shotgun forum very often, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear from him here in a day or two.
lpl/nc
lpl/nc
sm
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massad ayoob
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At LFI, we suggest buckshot. It has proven itself over the years as the optimum close/intermediate range antipersonnel shotgun round.
Birdshot can still go through sheetrock. One does not minimize danger to family members in other rooms by using birdshot; one does so by working out a coordinated defense plan that will not have one firing in the direction of other household members. If the armed, identified intruder ducks behind a wall or piece of furniture or other barrier, you WANT to be able to reach through and hit him.
Birdshot can still go through sheetrock. One does not minimize danger to family members in other rooms by using birdshot; one does so by working out a coordinated defense plan that will not have one firing in the direction of other household members. If the armed, identified intruder ducks behind a wall or piece of furniture or other barrier, you WANT to be able to reach through and hit him.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
For a few decades I mix loaded the HD 870 here with 6s up first. I switched to all 00 a few years back. I re-evaluated our layout and decided to go with a proven performer.
I'm the only shotgunner at Caca McC, The others are all competent handgunners, and there's a fair number of revolvers here for them. If a zero dark thirty crisis erupts,the 870 will be fired in a direction 180 degrees away from other family. The SS has two slugs in it in case I have to shoot through the fridge. I believe slugs are a bit two penetrative in THIS townhouse.
Every one of us has to work these things out for their use environment.
I'm the only shotgunner at Caca McC, The others are all competent handgunners, and there's a fair number of revolvers here for them. If a zero dark thirty crisis erupts,the 870 will be fired in a direction 180 degrees away from other family. The SS has two slugs in it in case I have to shoot through the fridge. I believe slugs are a bit two penetrative in THIS townhouse.
Every one of us has to work these things out for their use environment.
Robert Hairless
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Lee Lapin:
Okay, I'm impressed. Now let's see you make Sandra Bullock appear.
Okay, I'm impressed. Now let's see you make Sandra Bullock appear.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Robert,
Sorry, but I've never met Sandra Bullock. And I don't know if she's a member here. It happens I met Mr. Ayoob last year at a training venue, and frankly I think it's my wife he remembers more than me. That's the case with a lot of people, it seems.
But if I ever see Sandra Bullock anywhere it's appropriate, you can bet I'll introduce myself...(and my wife too, since she loved Bullock's character in _Miss Congeniality_). 8^)
lpl/nc
Sorry, but I've never met Sandra Bullock. And I don't know if she's a member here. It happens I met Mr. Ayoob last year at a training venue, and frankly I think it's my wife he remembers more than me. That's the case with a lot of people, it seems.
But if I ever see Sandra Bullock anywhere it's appropriate, you can bet I'll introduce myself...(and my wife too, since she loved Bullock's character in _Miss Congeniality_). 8^)
lpl/nc
Robert Hairless
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Sigh. The wonder and awe dissolve once you explain how the trick was done. I like and respect Mas but I was sort of hoping for Sandra Bullock.
Home Defense
I was told once that the FBI only authorized #4 Buck for shootouts. Any other
size and the Agent was fined if he used it. Having seen deer killed with #4 Buck
I know that it is truly deadly at 20 yards or so. I think there are 25-30 approx. .22 cal. pellets. I was hunting with a friend on an old fire road. I was on the hill and he was below. I could see two deer running toward him from my elevated positition. Both deer about 1 second apart tried to jump the road. He was shooting a browning A-5 12 gauge with #4 Buck. Both deer were killed mid-air leaping the fire trail. Struck by lightning would be an appropiate description. They hit the ground dead. He had killed 50 or so deer, all with shotguns. He would only use #4 Buck. I helped skin those deer looked closely at the deer. Almost complete penetration and so many pellets everywhere in the forward part of the deer. I was very impressed as I knew that with my rifle both deer would have made it safely across that fire road. If it's true that the FBI only use #4 Buck I can understand why.
I was told once that the FBI only authorized #4 Buck for shootouts. Any other
size and the Agent was fined if he used it. Having seen deer killed with #4 Buck
I know that it is truly deadly at 20 yards or so. I think there are 25-30 approx. .22 cal. pellets. I was hunting with a friend on an old fire road. I was on the hill and he was below. I could see two deer running toward him from my elevated positition. Both deer about 1 second apart tried to jump the road. He was shooting a browning A-5 12 gauge with #4 Buck. Both deer were killed mid-air leaping the fire trail. Struck by lightning would be an appropiate description. They hit the ground dead. He had killed 50 or so deer, all with shotguns. He would only use #4 Buck. I helped skin those deer looked closely at the deer. Almost complete penetration and so many pellets everywhere in the forward part of the deer. I was very impressed as I knew that with my rifle both deer would have made it safely across that fire road. If it's true that the FBI only use #4 Buck I can understand why.
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