Question for Open Carriers

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Werewolf

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Oklahoma
NOTE: Please don't turn this into a discussion of the merits of OC vs CCW. There's enough threads covering that issue already.

Oklahoma just passed open carry. Right now it's just for those of us with a CCW license but it is a good first step. Waiting for the Gov to sign it (he's got 5 days, used 2 already - unsigned it becomes law). He may not sign the bill and may even veto it but the bill was passed with veto proof majorities so odds are OC will become law on 11/1/2010 in Oklahoma.

I plan to OC, regularly.

I don't anticipate being hassled by law enforcement about it but anything is possible. I will carry a laminated wallet sized copy of the pertinent law in my wallet.

My question is how does one make a police officer aware of the change in the law without pissing him or her off? How does one, diplomatically say, "look dumbass, OC is legal now. Why aren't you informed about that. Don't they teach you guys about pertinent changes in law that will impact your daily dealings with citizens?"

Now I wouldn't ever talk that way to a police officer. One - it's not polite to speak that way to anyone, cop or not, and two it'd be a good way to end up face down on the ground with a boot on your neck.

I'm no diplomat so how does one deal with a cop who confronts you about an action he wrongly believes is illegal? What do you say?
 
I've never been hassled but when I'm home and I open carry I carry a little card I got off of opencarry.org that lists all the laws of state regarding carry of any sort.

My SOP is to deal with the cop by:
Asking if I can help him
If I'm doing anything illegal
If not, if I may leave

All that in the most polite way possible.

Now a lot of people go as far as to say don't show ID or anything like that, but I suppose if he asks for it I'd hand it over. If the issue continues to be pressed, I have the card which I can give to him (they're online so I can always get another one along with pamphlets and such).

Like I said, even though I'm 20 and look much younger than that, I've never been hassled by anyone even in the hippie-liberal capital of Colorado (Boulder). More likely you're going to get some odd looks from some folks and some conversation from curious individuals.
 
It has been my experience that you will not educate a police officer. Laminated card or carry the whole law, he's not going to listen to you. In most cases they already know what the law says, but sometimes they don't.

Either way, your first question should always be, "Are you detaining me?"
If he is not detaining you, don't talk, don't debate, just walk away.
If he is detaining you, well, I really don't know for your state.

You see, here in Washington there is no 'law' that was written to allow open carry. Here, as in most places, it's the lack of a law that allows open carry. If I were detained, I would ask, "For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?" The police cannot seize a citizen unless they can articulate a specific crime they believe the citizen is involved in. Because there is a law allowing you to open carry, and a permit is required to do so, it may be reasonable for the officer to demand to see your permit.

I suspect there will be some growing pains there.
 
Ask to speak to his supervisor.
And if that doesn't work, buy a new gun with the proceeds from your lawsuit.
 
I guess I forgot to take that into account.
OC in CO has been around for...well forever.
I guess considering that it'll be new for your state that like Mainsail said, there will be growing pains.

One thing to take into account when carrying, especially in areas which may look down on it is style of dress.
I've found out that I get a few more raised eyebrows when I go some place with ripped jeans and comfy (worn out) tshirts and such.
When I head out to the more unfriendlier places I tend to dress a little better with things such as a collared shirt and a nice pair of khakis or jeans.
Attitude is another thing to consider. Everyone gets a bit of the butterflies in the stomach when they first OC, but you have to act your part. Look good and act confident because people tend to notice when someone is acting all nervous or anxious.
Good luck with the OC when it passes!
 
Pretty much everything here applies to being an armed citizen in contact with recalcitrant police (not just open carry, but if you encounter an officer who doesn't grasp how, why, or whatever that you have weapon Y, magazine count Q, or aren't using whatever he or she finds personally mandated):

- Remind the officer that what you are doing is legal. Their opinions on the suitability or practice thereof are not relevant. If they do not cease and desist in lecturing, ask to speak to their supervisor (and do so).
- Remind the officer that you are not bound by the same conventions and expectations as a sworn officer. This applies to holsters, weapons, ammunition, number of spare magazines, et cetera. I had to remind one local officer after an armed encounter with a criminal intent on doing harm that I did not have my own batman utility belt nor had backup on call when he asked why I had X number of rounds on my person.
- Do not spend time going into detail about how or why or anything else unless you are extremely comfortable and practiced doing so - anything you say will be used against you if the officer decides to put his name in the hat for Retard of the Month.
- Set a reasonable time (up to you personally) that you will listen, be lectured, whatever, before interrupting with "Am I under arrest? Am I free to go?"

That said, I have never ever been hassled for open carry (which I do more and more the older I get) by local or state law enforcement, but I can see the same exact opportunity for harassment in the wake of using your weapon for self-defense (shots fired or otherwise) as in the aftermath of dealing with an officer call for carrying a visible weapon.

Just be calm, polite, and remember that they answer to someone. You may not get your satisfaction on the spot for their wasting your time, but if you complain up the ladder to supervisors, your city council/reps/mayor, et cetera, chances are you can make a positive change in how you and other carriers (open or otherwise) are dealt with in the future.

When you get waved at on your way home from the gunshop with a visible AK clone on the passenger seat of the van by the bike cops, you know you've won. ;0
 
I'm no diplomat so how does one deal with a cop who confronts you about an action he wrongly believes is illegal? What do you say?
Click to expand...

Remain calm. Remember that you are doing nothing wrong. Police tend to have an unsettling, intimidating air about them when confronting a law abiding citizen, because the law abiding citizen has been conditioned to feel like they're doing something wrong if they're being confronted by a police officer. You MUST overcome this feeling of guilt. Be confident, be courteous. Ask him why he's stopped you, if you are suspected of committing a crime. If he says you're not allowed to carry openly like that, ask him to tell you what law you are breaking. After he is unable to do so, ask if you are being detained. If yes, clam up. If no, wish him a nice day and leave.

That's my SOP, anyway.
 
When you get waved at on your way home from the gunshop with a visible AK clone on the passenger seat of the van by the bike cops, you know you've won. ;0
Click to expand...

Too epic.
 
If someone is worried about being hassled/detained/thrown to the ground by police for open carrying there would seem to be an obvious solution. Just sayin'.
 
If someone is worried about being hassled/detained/thrown to the ground by police for open carrying there would seem to be an obvious solution. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...

Have the superpower of invisibility?
Speed?
Jedi mind tricks?
 
newly open carry season

I toted a hoglegger for ever in the carolinas,i had one new jersey transplanted leo put a gun to my wifes head on a traffic stop because i had a deer rifle on the front seat,he shouted for me to keep my hands off the shotgun ? he further informed me that i was in a lot of trouble,he had to call his post to confirm that open carry was leagle,in a vehicle in n.c.we still got a ticket for 1 bad head light,which the judge threw out after hearing our story,the judge informed the officer to study up on n.c. law before trying to enforce it:neener:
 
I hope this law passes Werewolf... I don't care how it does, I just hope it passes. I think all legal American's should have the right to decide how to carry (OC or CC).

The Dove
 
Remind the officer…
Click to expand...
Ask him why he's stopped you…
Click to expand...
Ask to speak to his supervisor.
And if that doesn't work, buy a new gun with the proceeds from your lawsuit.
Click to expand...

I’m going to jump back in here and re-offer my advice, which is based on numerous experiences. The first thing that should come out of your face is, “Are you detaining me?” This goes for any police encounter that isn’t a traffic stop. You do not have a case against the police; no matter what they say to you or how verbally abusive they are- if you volunteer to subject yourself to it. There are very specific laws that apply to the police, evidence admissibility, etc., that all hinge on whether the officer is detaining you (seizure) or just engaging you in a chat.
 
I'd also mention that it makes good sense to carry a voice recorder. I know of numerous instances in my state (Ohio) where an open carrier was detained, detained at gunpoint, put on the ground at gunpoint, etc. The LEO's involved were all self-satisfied and cocky until the voice recording emerged showing they were abusive, using foul language, screaming at the OC, saying out-and-out lies about the law, etc.

Suddenly everything changed. First, because there was video or audio evidence, the most active gun rights organization in our state (Ohioans For Concealed Carry) was able to get involved. Meetings with police chiefs, mayors, or town councils happened. Departments were retrained. Officers were reprimanded. Life was good. :D

It is always your word against his absent evidence.

BTW, instead of a voice recorder, some people have signed up with one of the free conference call companies found on the internet and placed their conference call number and PIN on a one-key speed dial from their cell phone. That way, you press and hold (the "9" key for example) and your cell phone dials and records the call.
 
Based on an experience I had that resulted in an arrest for arguing with an LEO, I suggest that whenever possible either have a companion or bystander witness the confrontation with the police, or have a recorder handy as suggested by Jumping Frog. Sometimes, there's no reasoning with an LEO that's made up his mind that black is white. BTW, my complaint to the department was dismissed because it was his word against mine.
 
My question is how does one make a police officer aware of the change in the law without pissing him or her off? How does one, diplomatically say, "look dumbass, OC is legal now. Why aren't you informed about that. Don't they teach you guys about pertinent changes in law that will impact your daily dealings with citizens?"
Click to expand...

Did the new law make the newspapers? Carry around the relevant issue, if so.
 
Bubba613 said:
If someone is worried about being hassled/detained/thrown to the ground by police for open carrying there would seem to be an obvious solution. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...
Werewolf said:
NOTE: Please don't turn this into a discussion of the merits of OC vs CCW. There's enough threads covering that issue already.
Click to expand...


Jumping Frog, that's a very good idea but I'm curious as to how you activate the recorder without getting shot. Is there any kind that is voice activated maybe? Like when someone screams "GET THE !@#$ ON THE GROUND!!!" it starts recording ;). But seriously I think this might be a problem especially if you don't see the cop approaching.
 
+1 on General Geoff's advice:

Remain calm. Be fully aware that you are within the law. Do not apologize. A voice recorder is an excellent suggestion. It provides evidence that you did, indeed, 1) Remain calm. 2) obeyed the officer's orders 3) Had your rights violated.

Just because you are not breaking any laws is not a reason to ignore an officers commands.

1) Request a supervisor. 2) Inform him that it is NOT against the law. 3) Ask him to provide the ordinance number with which he believes you are breaking. 4) Ask him if you are free to go.

If you are not free to go, YOU ARE BEING DETAINED! In this case 5) As you have the right to remain silent...DO SO. If you are breaking the law, they will arrest you. If you are not, they will need a reason to do so, Therefore, you will not be able to talk your way out of an arrest. You will, however, be able to talk your way into one. The advantage of you talking rests solely with the police as they need to acquire a reason to take you away. Do not give them one.

It will also help during any encounter to 5) Remain polite.

While OC'ing you are a visible representative of all firearms owners. You will often have folks ask, "Are you a police officer?" The worst thing you can do is reply with a smart alecky answer. While you may be obviously NOT a police officer, you will still probably get asked this. (I thought growing a FULL BEARD would deter this often asked question, but alas, NO. Evidently cops now have full beards, otherwise, why do I always get asked?) While wiseacre replies are never far from my lips, I fully realize that common folks will view me as just a simple gun owner. I DO NOT want to make any more people believe that all gun owners are jerks than they already do. Therefore, remaining courteous is always foremost in my mind. (No matter how much I want to say, "Yes ma'am, I belong to the super-secret Bearded Police Society.")
 
General Geoff said:
Remain calm. Remember that you are doing nothing wrong. Police tend to have an unsettling, intimidating air about them when confronting a law abiding citizen, because the law abiding citizen has been conditioned to feel like they're doing something wrong if they're being confronted by a police officer. You MUST overcome this feeling of guilt.
Click to expand...

That is probably the #1 advice right there! Since OK will be a licensed open carry state, you probably can't get away with not showing your ID/license like we can in Washington, so that is pretty much a given.

I would suggest try to end the encounter as quickly as possible. If the cop starts with can I talk to you, or will you come with me. Answer, "Officer, with all due respect, I would rather not." Then if he insists, like others have said, ask "Am I being detained?" Be careful in the heat of the moment not to ask, "Am I being detained or am I free to go?" because a yes answer to that question is ambiguous - yes to which part? Then immediately ask for a supervisor.

I have had one such encounter with police and I was fairly new, so I hadn't gotten much advice, but what finally ended my encounter was when I firmly called his bluff. I finally said, Sir, we just aren't getting anywhere with this, please just write me a citation for the law that you think I am in violation of so we can both be on our way. That was when he finally gave me my stuff back and left.

One more thing - remember when you are on private property (and a business is private property), and you are breaking no laws, it is not the police that have the power to ask you to leave that property. It is up to the person(s) who have control over that property to ask you to leave.
 
ilikepancakes said:
Jumping Frog, that's a very good idea but I'm curious as to how you activate the recorder without getting shot. Is there any kind that is voice activated maybe?
Click to expand...
If you are in a car and getting pulled over, it is easy to turn one on.

For just general carrying out in public, I know of numerous people that simply turn it on and leave it going. If nothing happens, they delete the file. If something does happen, they are already recording. Rechargeable batteries.

Depends on how careful you want to be.
 
martialartsblackbelt said:
The law stipulate that any police officer may NOT stop and ask someone who's open carrying to ask for their license.
Click to expand...
Are you referring to the Oklahoma law being discussed here, Mr. Show-Me?
 
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