geo57
Member
Among you owners of the unconverted Saiga AK style rifles in 7.62x39 that have had, tried, & use the hi-cap mags offerd by Surefire and ProMag, which has given you the most trouble free service ? Thanks.
Question for Saiga 7.62x39 owners
- Thread starter geo57
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First things first. Unless you make some modifications to the gun putting either one of those magazines in it violates 922(r), federal law.
Assuming 922(r) is squared away,
I wouldn't use either of those magazines. I would drill one hole and tap it and file the mag latch a little and use steel AK mil surp mags. They are SO MUCH better quality.
If I wanted a magazine I didn't need to add a bullet guide to use, or needed US made magazines I still wouldn't use either of the mags you list. They are needlessly expensive. Thermolds are as good and in the case of the promags almost assuredly better magazines and work with out a bullet guide. You would need to file either the tabs on the mag or the guns mag latch. Thermolds are 1/3 or perhaps even 1/4 the price of the surefires.
Assuming 922(r) is squared away,
I wouldn't use either of those magazines. I would drill one hole and tap it and file the mag latch a little and use steel AK mil surp mags. They are SO MUCH better quality.
If I wanted a magazine I didn't need to add a bullet guide to use, or needed US made magazines I still wouldn't use either of the mags you list. They are needlessly expensive. Thermolds are as good and in the case of the promags almost assuredly better magazines and work with out a bullet guide. You would need to file either the tabs on the mag or the guns mag latch. Thermolds are 1/3 or perhaps even 1/4 the price of the surefires.
OP
OP
geo57
Member
Thanks. He'll likely leave it as is and just use the 10 rounders.
OilyPablo
Member
geo57 said:
I scored some (4) 30 round SGM Tactical USA mags for my Saiga (legal) converted AK style. The are absolutely reliable. I store them full. I've used them very abusively. I bought them before the conversion, but using them with my other USA parts is perfectly "legal" in the eyes of a very inane law.
berettaprofessor
Member
huh? I thought both were made in the US so they are good to go?
OilyPablo
Member
You are if you have other USA parts to the correct total of usa parts. Mag counts as 3. 10 total needed I think.
Sebastian the Ibis
Member
Surefire and converted thermolds are the best. But, Surefires are expensive, and thermolds need some dremmel work so pick your poison.
Pro-mags cause misfeeds from time to time. I got a bunch for cheap, but I wouldn't get anymore.
IMHO- If you only need one just get a surefire. If you want a bunch, order a dozen thermolds and file them down.
Pro-mags cause misfeeds from time to time. I got a bunch for cheap, but I wouldn't get anymore.
IMHO- If you only need one just get a surefire. If you want a bunch, order a dozen thermolds and file them down.
you have it bass awkards. You can't have more than 10 imported parts. You have to know the total part count (as determined by the BATF), and then replace enough items. Simple.
http://www.tapco.com/section922r/
OilyPablo
Member
Thanks - yeah it's been awhile since I did mine.
aka108
Member
Do you really need more than a 10 rd mag? 10 shots fired rapidly heats the barrel up enough. I see these guys with 30 rd mags empty them as fast as they can. If bang bang bang is all you want to hear get some firecrackers. It's nice to put up some targets and actually try to hit them. I have some 30 rds mags for a AK I own and the only reason I have the 30's is that when I ever decide to sell the AK it might make it easier to sell to the bang bang guys.
meanmrmustard
Member
I sure don't pretend to, but that's because I don't make the effort. I agree with Oily, it's an inane law, written by a person with obviously too much time on their hands. Do I blatantly break the rules set forth by government?
Not necessarily. But, I don't make it a point to read every article and section, as most law enforcement I know personally don't even know what 922r is, or have let alone heard of it. I'll probably get caught someday, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I'm kind of a rebel anyways, so believe you me, if I don't agree with it, then I don't go out of my way to worry about who made my rifle parts and how many I have from what country. Forget that.
I'll write you guys from prison.
+1 Surefire.
When I first purchased my x39 (still original, skeleton stock) I also bought one Promag. One trip to the range and I quickly returned it for a Surefire at twice the cost. I've run several hundred rnds thru it, no problems. But, with the cost of ammo, I usually stick with the factory 10rnder for most range trips. If I get invited somewhere where I can have fun, I'll bring a couple 30rnders to bump & blast away.
When I first purchased my x39 (still original, skeleton stock) I also bought one Promag. One trip to the range and I quickly returned it for a Surefire at twice the cost. I've run several hundred rnds thru it, no problems. But, with the cost of ammo, I usually stick with the factory 10rnder for most range trips. If I get invited somewhere where I can have fun, I'll bring a couple 30rnders to bump & blast away.
berettaprofessor
Member
Thanks Girodin, but now I'm really more confused than ever after reading the link. 922r talks of assembling similar guns to foreign guns using imported parts. An unaltered Saiga 7.62X39 is a whole imported gun....which is not illegal to have. Now if I use an American-made magazine specific for that gun, how does that make me noncompliant with 922r?
If it somehow magically does, then why do we only have this discussion with AK's and SKS's? Why isn't every Italian Beretta or CZ75 noncompliant the first time we use a made-in-US magazine in it? Or, for that matter, the CZ452 that I just put a Canadian-made shim and spring in?
Rob G
Member
In it's original unaltered form a Saiga is a "sporting weapon" and therefore is not subject to 922r, so it can have as many foreign made parts as you want. Once you put a high cap mag (of any origin) in it, it's no longer a "sporting weapon" and is then subject to 922r. At that point it can only have 10 foreign made parts from the BATFE's list. An unaltered Saiga has 17 of those parts so seven must be US made. A US magazine constitutes three of those parts.
922r only applies to foreign manufactured semi-auto centerfire rifles or shotguns. A CZ75 is a handgun, not effected. The CZ452 is a bolt action rimfire, not effected. Beretta makes very few semi-auto centerfire rifles and the ones they have are manufactured stateside to avoid the 922r bull----t.
Again, putting a US made magazine in a gun doesn't make a weapon noncompliant. Putting a detachable hi cap (10+rounds) magazine of any origin in a semi-auto centerfire rifle or semi auto shotgun make it subject to 922r. Things that also make is subject to 922r include adding a pistol grip or a muzzle brake.
Truthfully, unless you commit a crime or shoot someone in self defense with said weapon then it's unlikely you'll ever get caught for a 922r violation.
You can run US made 30rnders in a stock Saiga (state law provided); a mag counts as (3) pieces for 922 purposes. If you were to run an imported mag, you would have to delete (3) imported pieces...like a fore stock, butt stock, and gas piston...and add the US made ones. Or You could knock the import mags down to (1) count, by replacing the followers and springs with US made ones and make up the difference with (1) other piece. SEE, it's as clear as mud!
berettaprofessor
Member
Okay, I may just be dense, but didn't jodavk and Rob G just contradict each other????
It does and there is nothing magic about it. The ATF did a study on what made guns sporting or readily adaptable for sporting use. The main thing they said that made a gun not sporting was being able to accept large capacity military magazines. Basically it seems to be accepted that a mag over ten rounds (in the case of rifles) means the gun is no longer sporting. This is why the saiga as imported will not accept standard AK mags and comes with a ten round magazine.
Putting a mag that holds more than ten rounds in that rifle per se makes it non sporting. That makes it a gun that wouldn't be approved for importation. That means assembling in here "from imported parts" is a 922(r) violation. Putting the magazine it in constitutes assembling from parts. One is deemed to be assembling from imported parts under ATF regulations if the rifle has more than ten imported parts from a list of 20 specific parts. As imported the saiga rifle is believed to have 14. If you use a US made magazine then you reduce that number by three, mag body, follower, and floor plate. That means you still have 11 parts. This means you have assembled a rifle from imported parts that could not be imported and thus is a violation.
That is incorrect. Let's look at the list:
27 C.F.R. 478.89 lists 20 parts:
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Butt stocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, hand guards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates
Which 17 parts does a factory saiga rifle have? It has 14. At most one could argue that a sear should be counted because although combined with the trigger in AK designs it still exists and thus the one part should be two parts. The ATF letters I have seen on parts counts have not taken that opinion and state they have 14 countable parts. Some ATF letters have stated the shotguns have 15. A saiga after being modified may have 17 of those parts, but a factory sporter does not.
Many of the questions are very easy to answer if you simply take the time to read the law. 18 USC 922(r) reads as follows
The law by its express terms only applies to shotguns and semi auto rifles.
It comes up with those guns a lot because they are often purchased in a legal configuration and then people start modifying them However, it applies to other guns as well.
They appear to have depneding on how we interpret what the former said. I think he was not careful to be percise with his language and nor was he exactly technically correct in what I believe he was trying to say. I believe he was trying to say, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, that one can use US mags that hold more than ten rounds provided one removes another countable part as well because the would make the parts count ten (the 3 mag parts and another part). The easiest part would be a handguard. Other options would be some US made FCG parts (even for the wishbone linkage design, Dinzag sells them) or a piston. Swapping another part by definition means the gun is not stock. This is where I think he was not precise or technically correct with his word choice and made things confusing. What I think he meant to say by "stock" was a gun that did not have a pistol grip conversion.
amd6547
Member
"... Basically it seems to be accepted that a mag over ten rounds (in the case of rifles) means the gun is no longer sporting. This is why the saiga as imported will not accept standard AK mags and comes with a ten round magazine..."
...And yet, the Saiga 5.45, as imported will accept, and function, with a standard AK74 surplus magazine.
...And yet, the Saiga 5.45, as imported will accept, and function, with a standard AK74 surplus magazine.
I just thought I would add on this that if I were going to modify the mag, versus the gun (I'd rather do the gun) I wouldn't use a dremel. You don't have to remove much material. i would do it by hand with a file, stopping to check for fit often.
Lets assume that is true agruendo. I have read some say theirs required a bullet guide and others say they had to file the mag latch. But lets say the gun as it was sold accepted them (after all that's the same as, or at least substantially similar to any of the others that take mags made for them). Be that as it may, one arguably has not "assembled" a gun that cannot be imported until one actually puts such a magazine in the gun. You'll not the gun doesn't ship with those mags now does it? There is actually some more to be said about this and the advent of the US made saiga mags. However, it speaks more to importability in the first place and would only confuse the discussion for most folks at this point.
If people would take the time to read exactly what the code and CFR says (instead of just relying on what they have always heard or what they think it should be) and then think about it a little, they would find that while there are some unsettled issues, none of this is really very hard to understand.
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...isn't in a military looking configuration and are converted once here to achieve the correct parts count. Sellers simply don't go into the gory details of what has to be done to the guns to sell them with a pistol grip.
If everyone would be as transparent as these guys folks wouldn't be as confused.
http://www.jgsales.com/saiga-5.45x3...gi,-converted-by-delta-arms.-new.-p-6905.html
Every one of the new pistol grip AK pattern carbines start out as "girls" "over there" and are converted to "boys" after they get here.
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