Question For You C&R Gurus and Junkies

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cslinger

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Should one have a C&R license and purchase a firearm, can one make changes or modifications to that firearm or does it have to stay as originally configured.

I am not taking about doing things that would make the firearm illegal by other federal laws, like full auto conversion of an SKS or something.

I am talking about buying an old Mauser for the action and then building a nice sporter out of the action or dropping in a 9mm barrel conversion on a CZ52 etc.

Again this is assuming the firearm was bought and transferred to you via a C&R license.

If perfectly legal, do these modifications have to be logged in your bond book?

Once again I am sorry to bother what may seem like a stupid question to some but you guys are just so darn knowledgeable.

Thanks
Chris
 
Sombody call for a C&R junkie?

Legally, it's your property and you can do what you want with it (within GCA and Assault Weapons bans).

However, with permanent modifications the firearm is no longer C&R eligable so it would have to be signed out of the bound book and treated the same a regular modern firearm from that point on.
 
Nothing I know says you cannot modify the gun. However once you do, another C&R holder couldn't buy it as a C&R as it is no longer in its original military configuration. This applies to military guns, I don't know about non-military C&Rs.

If you the dispose of it, you do have to annotate the disposal in your bound book.

Best bet is to contact BATF on this and get their answer in writing.
 
Gun loses it's C&R status, as mentioned above.

Including if you rebarrel a military rifle to a chambering different than what it was issued in. In other words, a .270 M1 Garand that looks externally like a normal issued .30-06 Garand would lose it's C&R status. Now, if it was a 7.62mm NATO M1 Garand, that would probably withstand the test, since the Navy did so with many of their M1 Garands.

On some of the commercial C&R guns that aren't over 50 years old, like some of the pre-'64 Winchester Model 70's, their collector appeal is based on what they were chambered in. Same goes for many of the commemorative arms as listed in the C&R list. If those get modified, chances are the ATF would take a dim view at allowing them to keep their C&R status.

I've often wondered at what point is the modification too much to retain C&R eligibility. I replaced the cracked bolt carrier in my ancient Remington Model 11, and replaced split forend and buttstock wood on my even more ancient Remington Model 8. The guns still appear the same as when they were first manufactured...
 
Thanks

I will drop a line to the ATF to get further info but it sounds like as long as it is not a permanent modification it should be fine.

For example, replacing a stock is not permenant. In the case of a pistol a drop in barrel swap is not permenant.

Just curious.

Thanks
Chris
 
Another consideration is that you cannot make a modification that makes the gun illegal for import once it loses it's C&R status. The best example of this is the C&R SKS's. Start making changes and you can wind up with a gun that is in violation of AFT's "sporting rifle" interpretation plus isn't a C&R any longer either.
 
Thanks again

I am definitely aware of making changes that affect current import laws and federal, GCA etc. laws.

I was really just interested in re-stocking. I would kind of like to pick up a couple of mausers or mauser actions and make one into a really nice sporter and another into a fiberglass EBR of sorts.

I guess it really doesen't matter since switching the stocks back to original is not a difficult task.

Whenever I actually get my C&R and get around to thinking about doing this for real I will double check with the feds and see. I will post their answer when and if I ever pursue this.

Thanks again
Chris
 
As I understand C&R status, if a firearm is over 50 years old it is automatically considered C&R and you can do with it pretty much as you please within NFA and GCA restrictions. The phrase "original configuration" only comes into play for firearms less than 50 years old that the ATF has specifically designated as C&R. I'm curious to see what else is posted about this as I'm pretty green as Cruffler myself.

Stay safe.
 
Be careful, just because a firearm is 0ver 50 years old, it does not mean it is automatically a C&R. It jsut means that it is eligable for "Curio and Relic determination."

To be a C&R, it must be on the list or you have received a WRITTEN determination from BATF that it is a C&R.

This is how it reads in SEC II of the BATF Firearms Curios and Relics List.

"The Bereau has determined that the following firearms are curios and relics as defined in 27 CFR 178.11 because they fall within one of the cataegories specified in the regulations.

Such determination merely classifies the firearms as curios or relics and thereby authorizes licensed collectors to acquire, hold, or dispose of them as curios and relics subject to the provisions of 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 and the regulations in 27 CFR Part 178. They are still "firearms" as defined in 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44"

This is at the beginning of the list. If the gun is not on the list it has not yet been determined to be a C&R gun. The three criteria that allows a gun to be determined to be a C&R are:

a) Firearms ehich were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas;

b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal Museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre or because of their association with some historical figure, period or event.
 
Blackcloud6, that is not correct.

C&R guns are any guns over 50 years old AND any gun specifically listed on the list by ATF.

WHAT ARE CURIOS OR RELICS?
As set out in the regulations (27 CFR 178.11), curios or relics include firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
Click to expand...

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm
 
Hkmp5sd:

No sir, you are completely incorrect. You miss this part of the paragraph you site: "To be recognized as curios or relics..."

Just because the the gun is 50 years old does not make it automatically a C&R. it must be determined to be so by the Director of the BATF. The 3 criteria listed are the regulatory guidlines to allow a firearm to be considered for determination to be a C &R. A dtermination, in writing still has to be made.

If it is not on the list nor do you have a letter from the Director, BATF, then it is not a C&R gun. This is no "automatic" provision for determination.

Note these staements at the beginning of the list:

"The Bureau has determined that the following firearms are curios or relics as defined in 27 CFR 178.11 because they fall within one of the categories specified in the regulations.

Such determination merely classifies the firearms as curios or relics and thereby authorizes licensed collectors to acquire, hold, or dispose of them as curios or relics subject to the provisions of 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 and the regulations in 27 CFR Part 178. They are still "firearms" as defined in 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44."

The list authorizes colletors to acquire, hold or dispose of them as C&R, not the defintions of a C&R in the introduction.

Now, on the list are these general catergories:

"All Original military bolt action and semiautomatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946.
All properly marked and identified semiautomatic pistols and revolvers used by, or mfd. for, any military organization prior to 1946.
All shotguns, properly marked and identified as mfd. for any military organization prior to 1946 and in their original military configuration only."


So any gun that falls in these categories are C&Rs because they are on the list, thus a determination has been made.

A S&W Model 15 Combat masterpiece, manufactured in 1951, is not a C&R as the Model 15 is not on the list. I know, because I bought one of these and checked with BATF.

Guys, don't muck around with this stuff. If you get called in and have your book inspected and you have a gun on in the book, that you bought through interstate commerce using your license, that is not on the list, you may be in hot water.
 
Looks like we disagree...

There are three ways for a gun to become C&R eligible:

1. It is a relic. By definition, this is any gun over 50 years in age.

OR

2. It is certified by a museum curator. (which rules us out)

OR

3. It is a Curio which means it has some characteristic (rare, historical, famous, etc) that makes it valuable as a collectible firearm. These are guns specifically listed on the C&R list that have been deemed "primarily a collector's item" and are not likely to be used as a weapon. These guns are determined by the Director in accordance with 26 U.S.C. 5845(a).


If you are not sure a specific gun is a Curio or Relic, you may submit a written request to the Director for a determination under 27 CFR 178.26.


I may be wrong (and it won't be the first, second or 10,000th time), but if I am, I know several collectors that will be very surprised, including a few here at THR.
 
Is it just me or are you guys saying the same thing?

To be a Curio OR Relic, a firearm must be one of the following:

1) Be a Relic - manufactured more than 50 years ago
2) Deemed a collectable Curio
 
It's not just you...

We are saying the same thing.:) Only difference is I claim it becomes a relic automatically on it's birthday and Blackcloud6 says it's not official until ATF adds it to the list by name.

Which reminds me...I've heard (haven't actually looked yet) that Russian and Romanian SKS's are listed on the C&R list but the Yugo SKS that is currently very popular is not specifically named on that list.
 
Hkmp5sd

You are right in that if they meet one of the three criteria, they are eligible for C&R status, but they BATF still has to determine it to be so and put it on the list. If it wasn't so, why would they have such specific entries on the list as: "Browning, model 1906 Pocket Pistol if more than 50 years old?"

My point is, don't take it for granted that some thing is C&R just because it meets the defintion. Remeber who you are dealing with, government beraucrafts who read regs as they see them, not you. Be safe, follow the specific list and you can't go wrong.

Maybe if I get up the energy and have the time, I may write a letter to BATF asking for a written ruling just on this issue.


Fred
 
Last edited:
You are right in that if they meet one of the three criteria, they are eligible for C&R status, but they BATF still has to determine it to be so and put it on the list. If it wasn't so, why would they have such specific entries on the list as: "Browning, model 1906 Pocket Pistol if more than 50 years old?"

My point is, don't take it for granted that some thing is C&R just because it meets the defintion. Remeber who you are dealing with, government beraucrafts who read regs as they see them, not you. Be safe, follow the specific list and you can't go wrong.

Maybe if I get up the energy and have the time, I may write a letter to BATF asking for a written ruling just on this issue.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid that you are incorrect. A firearm that was manufactured over 50 years ago is automatically a C&R and does not have to be specifically listed. In addition, military firearms have to be in "original military configuration.

BATF has specifically answered this in several letters of clarification and stated that the firearm only has to meet one of the three criteria and that a 50 year old firearm does not have to be listed.

A lot of people are confused because so many firearms that are over 50 years old are listed. In fact, BATF nevers removes a firearm from the list so eventually a listed firearm will pass the 50 year mark.

See the link for a copy of one of BATF's letters.

http://www.cruffler.com/50YearLetterRC1997.pdf
 
I concur with EOD guy. Now, that being said, you'll get an argument from an FFL if you want to buy an unlisted 50+ year old rifle as a C&R unless the FFL is one of the enlightened ones. As a matter of fact, it won't be long until you encounter an FFL who won't even accept your C&R license for a bonefide, listed firearm. It's happened to all of us. Go figure.

Also, the other posters were correct in that you can do what you will (within the law) with your C&R purchases. As they have all said, however, it immediately loses it's C&R status and must be transfered by an 01 FFL in the future.

This is why you can't by complete "actions" as a C&R. Say, for instance, you find a great VZ52 but it doesn't have it's stock. You'd have to transfer it through an 01 FFL. The cool thing is that once you own it, you can retro that action into a true, VZ52 stock (if you could find one) and it can become a C&R once again. Original military configuration means just that: and operating, complete military rifle in the condition it was when the last soldier put it down. No mods are allowed.

Regarding the retrofitting, please don't "sporterize" a perfectly good C&R rifle :uhoh: . If you really want to use an action, try to find one that is a "fixerupper" or a damaged one. They don't make any more of these and as a C&R collector, I cringe to see perfectly good military rifles 'fancied" up in some aftermarket stock. Lots of guys hunt with them in their original configuration, using them as they were meant to be used. Just please think twice before you proceed.

Finally, I'll close by saying that the C&R license is going to eventually wane. As most of the old battle rifles are being sold out and more and more collectors are holding onto their collections, fewer and fewer pieces will be available in the future. There is nothing to take their place as virtually all of the rifles made after 1960 were select fire pieces which precludes them from the C&R as we know it today. We won't be seeing FALs and Galils, or Uzis or anything else on the racks. So, grab them while you can. The laws won't get looser anytime soon. Sure, we can buy "altered" FALS but they aren't C&R, are they.

Rome
 
Just for the record...

I would never take a perfectly good old warhorse and deface it. I am really talking about picking up a beat up abused one for cheap and making a project rifle out of it.

I love the old battle rifles and eventually want quite a few in original configuration.

You make the comment that C&R will wane due to the 60s having mostly select fire weapons. This is true but a lot of very nice revolvers were produced in the 60s.

Chris
 
That's good to hear. Too many guys blithly ruin old C&Rs for sporters so I'm glad you're on our side.

You're right about pistols, Chris. I hadn't given that side much thought, only the rifles. I'm inclinded to like rifles with lots of wood, anyway. Most everthing after the 60s was plastic.

Rome
 
but the Yugo SKS that is currently very popular is not specifically named on that list.
Click to expand...
Yugo's are on the list. They probably aren't in the book they sent you, but there are additions on the ATF website.

Cabinetman, you are correct about the glory days of surplus C&Rs waning, but there will still be C&R weapons as long as the ATF keeps allowing us the licence to collect them. CETME's, FALs, M1A1s, Kimbers, and yes, even plastic stocked ARs will all be C&Rs when they reach the golden age of 50. You just won't see AIM, SOG and Century carrying boat loads of them.
 
The C&R list reads (with regards to military arms :
"All Original military bolt action and semiautomatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946"
Also:
"All shotguns, properly marked and indentified as mfd. for any military organization prior to 1946 and in their original military configuration only."
And:
"All properly marked and identified semiautomatic pistols and revolvers used by, or mfd. for, any military organization prior to 1946."

Where is everyone seeing that "in original military configuration" applies to rifles? The list indicates that restriction only applies to shotguns. Remember, also, the list was started in 1968 and all WWII weapons were immediately listed by the above three listings. Now that over 50 years have passed since WWII, even shotguns not in their "original military configuration" become C&R due to their date of production being over 50 years ago (while pistols, rifles and shotguns in their original configuration are C&R due to both the list and their age).

If the serial number says that its over 50 years old, its C&R.
If its on the list (and satisfies any restrictions in the list, such as "in original military configuration" for military shotguns), its C&R.
The ATF can not say a gun is not C&R if it satisfies one (or both) of the above conditions.

Kharn
 
Kharn, pick an advertiser in Shotgun News...

Usually, those that have C&R-eligible military rifles, like Century Arms, SOG, Tennessee Guns, etc. Or, some better-known dealers in C&R guns, like Dennis Kroh at www.empirearms.com or Sonja Ellison. Ask them if they'll sell you a sporterized Mauser on a C&R transfer. Go ahead, I'll wait for you to relay their answer here. ;)

(Just renewed my C&R FFL for the first time, 3 more years of trying to find more space for lonely guns!)

In my nice little ATF-supplied handbook of all things legal, there's a Questions & Answers section which specifically addresses the C&R eligibility of stripped receivers and sporterized milsurps. Anybody care to guess the answer? Buehler? Buehler?:scrutiny:
 
Like what the other folks have said, it is ok to modify a C&R weapon but you cannot sell the modified weapon as a C&R.
 
They probably aren't in the book they sent you, but there are additions on the ATF website.
Click to expand...

That's more true than you know!:) I tend to keep everything ATF sends me and that includes a couple of C&R lists from the 80's back when I first started. Occasionally I pull out the wrong list when looking for a gun and can't find anything listed even close.
 
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