Question on minimum OAL

[Bozrdang]

I am new to reloading and shooting in general. I have only reloaded 9mm so far and it's gone good for the most part. Aside from the hobby of reloading my secondary objective is to save money. I started out reloading 1000 Xtreme 115 RN bullets with 5.9 grains of BE-86 powder and an OAL of 1.130. I settled on that OAL because the Alliant data showed a minimum OAL of 1.120 and my Dillon 650 seems to have a variance of plus or minus 0.008".

I just started trying some Acme 115 RN coated bullets with 5.5 grains of Unique and left the OAL at 1.130. I use a 20 hole case gauge to check each bullet and I am getting about 7-10 out of each 20 that don't sit flush. I tightened up the crimp on my LFC die and things improved some, but I'm still getting 4-5 that don't sit flush and I can see that I am now compressing the base of the bullet when I pull some apart.

With the Xtreme bullets I would only get a max of one or two that would sit just a tad high and many times none would be high. So it seems to me that the change in bullet is causing the deference. Most, but not all of the ones that fail check out a little over 1.130 on the OAL so I am wondering if I can go lower on the OAL and maybe that will fix the problem. But what is too low? What are the dangers of have too short of an OAL?

 

[ATLDave]

OAL will vary with bullet profile.

This is one reason to have several loading manuals... the chances of finding the specific bullet, or one with enough similarity to what you're loading, with a usable OAL is much higher.

 

[rcmodel]

Forget about the case gage.

Take the barrel out of the pistol and see if they fit it.

That right there is the only case gage you need to worry about fitting.

rc

 

[DR915]

You need to load what works in you gun. OAL in the book is a guide and also max OAL. I load my 9mm @ 1.065. I didn't just choose that OAL, I tested and Chrono to get there. Each powder and powder charge will be a little different. I use Titegroup and CFE, Titegroup is a lighter recoil than CFE in my load test. CFE (for me) has to be at near max to be good. Which gives a good amount of recoil. Titegroup powder is loaded at the middle of the road which is an accurate round with a lighter recoil. Hope this helps!

 

[Bozrdang]

I've read to use lead data for coated bullets. On Alliant's site the only lead data they show for 9mm is 125 gr Lean RN and it says minimum OAL is 1.120. I assumed that meant it is either unsafe or inadvisable to go lower than that. I've read of people using a shorter OAL but I didn't know if that might be OK based on thepowder they were using. I've been trying to stick to published data. Is it possible to go too short? If so, what are the consequences?

You crimping? You may be needing a tick more taper crimp vs OAL adjustment.

I am using the Lee 4 die set with the Factory Crimp die. I have adjusted that for a tighter crimp and it helped a little, but now it is deforming the base of the bullet. Here is a pic:

20150803_155221 by rockdawg2232, on Flickr

Will that affect accuracy and should I loosen the crimp? If so, how do I mitigate the fact that even more cartridges will then fail the plunk test?

Forget about the case gage.

Take the barrel out of the pistol and see if they fit it.

That right there is the only case gage you need to worry about fitting.

I've read that before, but I really don't want to do it that way for a few reasons:

1. I'd have to do 1 at a time. Right now I do 20 at a time and it's much faster. Plus the gauge I have now I can flip over they they drop nicely into my ammo case.

2. I'd rather get the cartridges to fit this gauge (if possible) since it's my understanding that if they fit it then they should work in any gun. I want to build up a surplus of ammo and I know I will be buying more guns soon. I don't want to find out later that I have problems because one of my new guns has a tighter barrel than the one I used to gauge the ammo.

3. Finally, I'm working under the assumption that this is an issue that can be corrected. If so, I'd rather figure out how and maybe learn some more about loading technique than settle for good enough.

OAL in the book is a guide and also max OAL.

See the data on Alliant's site specifically say minimum, not maximum. I thought the only max OAL for any given 9mm load was 1.169 regardless of powder or bullet but I'm probably just showing my ignorance on that one.

 

[Blue68f100]

The profile on the bullet is different that you were using. So you will need to adj the OAL shorter to get clearance. All of my 9mm are 1.125"-1.120". I had to settle on this because of one of my pistol's had a short leads.

btw, Over use of the LFCD will give you poor bullet/barrel fit and accuracy will suffer. Best to learn to setup the dies properly so it's not needed. I also reduce neck tension which can give you bullet setback. If you do use it, do a minimal crimp as you can. If you can not get std dies to work there is a problem with the dies or components, over size bullets, thick wall brass. The best way to use it is to remove the sizing ring at the base. That way you will have less post sizing if you must use it.

 

[judgedelta]

Like the OP, I have recently had problems when changing bullets. As patiently instructed on this very forum, as I understand, I should use the barrel to obtain the distance to the lands, then reduce by a hundredth (0.01). Then use the Lee FCD to just remove the flare from the case (don't go to scrunching up the bullet or deforming the case) and then use the case gauge to make sure all of the flare is gone and the bullet will chamber freely. It has been my experience that all round-nose bullets don't have the same profile and will not necessarily plunk at the same OAL. Good luck; 9mm can be frustrating...

 

[Bozrdang]

The profile on the bullet is different that you were using.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I should have mentioned that in my picture that is a round nose bullet . I placed it upside down in the shell plate bolt of my Dillon 650 to hold it while I took the picture. So the top in that picture is actually the base of the bullet. The picture is just to show how the crimp is deforming the base of the bullet.

So you will need to adj the OAL shorter to get clearance. All of my 9mm are 1.125"-1.120". I had to settle on this because of one of my pistol's had a short leads.

btw, Over use of the LFCD will give you poor bullet/barrel fit and accuracy will suffer. Best to learn to setup the dies properly so it's not needed. I also reduce neck tension which can give you bullet setback. If you do use it, do a minimal crimp as you can. If you can not get std dies to work there is a problem with the dies or components, over size bullets, thick wall brass. The best way to use it is to remove the sizing ring at the base. That way you will have less post sizing if you must use it.

I have read that before. I am trying to learn the right way to set up my dies. If I'm not mistaken the LFCD is the only thing that crimps in the Lee 4 die set. Maybe I should buy different dies?

 

[Bozrdang]

...as I understand, I should use the barrel to obtain the distance to the lands, then reduce by a hundredth (0.01).

How do you do that? Do you measure with a micrometer or something?

[/QUOTE]Good luck; 9mm can be frustrating...[/QUOTE]

Thanks!

 

[Rule3]

Here is the plunk test by Walkalong.

Also the picture of your coated bullet you have to much crimp on there. You have squeezed the snoot out of it!

Every bullet is a different shape even if it is a RN profile, they all vary a little. As rc said forget the case gauge. Seat your bullets long like to the max and slowly seat deeper until they drop in the barrel and then fall out when you turn it over. That is your correct length.

This is a 45 ACP but the idea is the same.

Using an auto pistol barrel find a MAX O.A.L with your bullet
This topic comes up a lot, or should I say this question
Why won't my reloads chamber?
A short throat is sometimes the culprit. Too long an O.A.L. is sometimes the problem, even with barrels with average throats.

This pic is often used to help explain correct headspacing and how O.A.L. can affect chambering and headspace.

Click this link:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

 

[berettaprofessor]

1. I'd have to do 1 at a time. Right now I do 20 at a time and it's much faster. Plus the gauge I have now I can flip over they they drop nicely into my ammo case.

What am I missing here?? You "plunk test" the barrel to determine the maximum OAL...then set your dies accordingly just under that. You don't have to plunk test every bullet....heck I don't even measure OAL but about every 25th cartridge once I get the dies set and get going. And I just do it then to make sure something hasn't loosened up.

 

[X-Ring]

If I'm not mistaken the LFCD is the only thing that crimps in the Lee 4 die set.

You are mistaken, the seat die will crimp if adjusted to do so.

 

[gamestalker]

RC's advice is spot on as usual!

My barrel is my case gauge. In more than 30 yrs. of reloading I have never used, nor needed a case gauge, and I've yet to have a problem with loads fitting, feeding, and functioning 100%.

One does not have to use the LFCD, some reloaders love them, and I'm sure they have their supportive reasons. But I've honestly never found a need to use them, and have obtained everything in the form of a proper crimp with a standard seat / crimp die.

GS

 

[witchhunter]

Agree with RC, adjust your dies to make ammo to fit/function in YOUR chamber. Make it short enough to fit easily. Then start on the low end of the powder scale and work up a load. Once you are happy with the ammo, just make more when you need it, buy a supply of the same bullets and you are GTG.

 

[cali_blues]

Anytime you try a new bullet, you need to do the push test to figure out what the true max OAL is for that particular bullet in your particular barrel. You might test those new acme bullets and find out that they just can't be 1.120 in your gun, but that 1.110 is fine. Or you might find that really they can be seated much longer than 1.120 before they hit rifling, and then you know that OAL is not your problem.

Also it's worth noting a published minimum OAL is respective to the published max powder charge. You can run a shorter OAL, you just need to start with a lower powder charge and work back up again.

 

[lysanderxiii]

20150803_155221 by rockdawg2232

You have way too much crimp.

Ideally, a taper crimp shouldn't leave a mark on the bullet.

 

[Bozrdang]

I did some more investigating on this today and over half of the ones that fail the gauge also didn't seat properly in my barrel. I also checked the OAL on all of them and ma y of the ones that wouldn't fit the barrel were the same OAL as I especially that did so that ruled that out.

Finally, I colored the cases with a black marker and put them in the case gauge a bunch of times. Based on the scraped portions of the case and closer examination of the bullet it looks like the problem is really caused by bullets seated crooked.



The scraped off portion is only on that side of the case.

This is probably a stupid question, but what can I do to help prevent that? I thought the seating die would align the bullet as it seated.

 

[Bozrdang]

You have way too much crimp.

Ideally, a taper crimp shouldn't leave a mark on the bullet.

I figured that. That was in attempt to fix my gauging issues. I was just curious if that would affect performance in any way. Am I correct that you usually do get a little bit of Mark on coated bullets or should they always not have any mark?

 

[Bozrdang]

You are mistaken, the seat die will crimp if adjusted to do so.

I stand corrected. Thanks for the info.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Wow, I'd heard that coated bullets were softer than plated, but didn't realize they were that much softer.

When loading something that soft into a tapered case like the 9x19mm, you might try something like the Lyman M-Expanding die, The M die forms a "seat" with parallel sides to hold the bullet aligned with the case for seating

 

[Blue68f100]

Are these mixed cases or all one mfg? Some mfg are known to have a thicker/thinner wall.

 

[Bozrdang]

Wow, I'd heard that coated bullets were softer than plated, but didn't realize they were that much softer.

When loading something that soft into a tapered case like the 9x19mm, you might try something like the Lyman M-Expanding die, The M die forms a "seat" with parallel sides to hold the bullet aligned with the case for seating

Well I know I do have some pretty good crimp dialed in there. That was just in an effort to see if it solved my plunk test failures. It did lessen the number of failures but I understand it's not the solution.

 

[Bozrdang]

Are these mixed cases or all one mfg? Some mfg are known to have a thicker/thinner wall.

They are mixed cases, but I see the same brand both passing and failing at times. Like I said, I think my problem may be more an issue of the bullet being seated a bit crooked. I think that is what I need to correct.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Well I know I do have some pretty good crimp dialed in there. That was just in an effort to see if it solved my plunk test failures. It did lessen the number of failures but I understand it's not the solution.

It is possible that you aren't expanding the case enough for the bullet to seat consistently.

Until you discover what the basic issue is, you can eliminate a variable by sorting your cases by headstamp

 

[LiveLife]

I started out reloading 1000 Xtreme 115 RN bullets

I wasn't aware X-Treme sold coated lead bullets ... Measure your bullet diameter as most coated lead bullets are sized .356" instead of .355" (This could vary depending on the manufacturer).

They are mixed cases, but I see the same brand both passing and failing at times.

That's because different headstamp cases will have different thickness/uneven case wall thickness. If you are using .356"+ sized bullet with thicker/uneven case wall brass, you may have intermittent failure to fully chamber. Most case gauges were meant for .355" sized bullets. If you are using .356"+ sized bullets, you really need to use your barrel as the case gauge (as rcmodel and other members already posted).

"Minimum OAL" is for the particular bullet that Alliant used for the chamber pressure test. Not all 115 gr RN bullets will have the same nose profile (ogive and bullet length). If you are using a bullet with different nose profile and length, you may end up with different bullet seating depth/chamber pressures. I usually determine the max OAL/COL first using my barrel then function test by feeding from the magazine to determine the working OAL - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8864541#post8864541

115 gr RN with 5.9 grains of BE-86 powder

If published load data used .355" sized bullet and your bullet is .356" or larger, your chamber pressure may be higher and you may need to use lower powder charges. Besides, Alliant's load data used FMJ bullet and you are using coated lead bullets. I would not have used 5.9 gr as my start charge for coated lead bullet if 6.1 gr was max charge for FMJ bullet - http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...wderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=38&cartridge=23

9mm Luger 115 gr FMJ BE-86 OAL 1.12" Max 6.1 gr 1,219 fps

For me, FCD is fine to use with .355" sized jacketed/plated bullets but not for .356"+ sized lead/coated bullets as post-sizing (as indicated by your pictures) will reduce bullet diameter and reduce neck tension and may seriously increase bullet setback/chamber pressure increase.

Feed a dummy round (no powder/no primer) from the magazine and release the slide without riding it. If your OAL/COL reduces significantly (more than several thousandths), you have a neck tension issue and I would suggest you set the FCD aside for those bullets.

I use jacketed/plated/lead/coated lead bullets with my Lee dies and do not use FCD. I seat/crimp in the same step and barely leave an imprint of the case mouth on the bullets.