Question on minimum OAL

[Bozrdang]

It's possible. I'll look into that. Granted, I have little to no experience but I thought I had plenty of bell since it can easily be seen.

 

[Bozrdang]

I wasn't aware X-Treme sold coated lead bullets ...

I didn't say X-Treme made coated bullets. I said I started out using their (plated) bullets

Measure your bullet diameter as most coated lead bullets are sized .356" instead of .355" (This could vary depending on the manufacturer).

I will do that but ACME's site says they are .356. Is one preferable?

That's because different headstamp cases will have different thickness/uneven case wall thickness.

But I said I see the same brand case both pass and fail? Don't they have uniform wall thickness within any given brand?

If you are using .356"+ sized bullet with thicker/uneven case wall brass, you may have intermittent failure to fully chamber. Most case gauges were meant for .355" sized bullets. If you are using .356"+ sized bullets, you really need to use your barrel as the case gauge (as rcmodel and other members already posted).

I get what you are saying here. I just read about a lot of people who gauge their reloads (some do everyone). You would think someone would make an over-sized gauge then so we wouldn't have to use the barrel. Like I said earlier. The barrel is far less convenient to use with many cartridges and I can only use the tightest barrel I have now. If I buy a gun with a tighter barrel then new problems may arise. That's why I'd prefer to get them to pass the gauge if possible. And let's not forget that many do.

"Minimum OAL" is for the particular bullet that Alliant used for the chamber pressure test. Not all 115 gr RN bullets will have the same nose profile (ogive and bullet length). If you are using a bullet with different nose profile and length, you may end up with different bullet seating depth/chamber pressures. I usually determine the max OAL/COL first using my barrel then function test by feeding from the magazine to determine the working OAL - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8864541#post8864541

I will definitely look into that. Thanks!

If published load data used .355" sized bullet and your bullet is .356" or larger, your chamber pressure may be higher and you may need to use lower powder charges. Besides, Alliant's load data used FMJ bullet and you are using coated lead bullets. I would not have used 5.9 gr as my start charge for coated lead bullet if 6.1 gr was max charge for FMJ bullet - http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...wderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=38&cartridge=23

I didn't use that load with a coated bullet. I used that with the X-Treme plated bullet.

For me, FCD is fine to use with .355" sized jacketed/plated bullets but not for .356"+ sized lead/coated bullets as post-sizing (as indicated by your pictures) will reduce bullet diameter and reduce neck tension and may seriously increase bullet setback/chamber pressure increase.

Will I be fine if I remove the resizing ring, but still use the LFCD?

Feed a dummy round (no powder/no primer) from the magazine and release the slide without riding it. If your OAL/COL reduces significantly (more than several thousandths), you have a neck tension issue and I would suggest you set the FCD aside for those bullets.

I will try that. Thanks.

I use jacketed/plated/lead/coated lead bullets with my Lee dies and do not use FCD. I seat/crimp in the same step and barely leave an imprint of the case mouth on the bullets.

Good to know. I will try that.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I just read about a lot of people who gauge their reloads (some do everyone). You would think someone would make an over-sized gauge then so we wouldn't have to use the barrel.

Do you mean larger as in too large for some barrels or do you mean able to gauge more rounds at the same time?

If the latter, my loading partner and I use a case gauge that holds 100 completed rounds.

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We do gauge every round that we intend to shoot in a match; if we're going to do that, we might as well check them all. It hardly takes any time to do it when you are check 100 at a time...plus inverting the gauge allows them to fill a 100 round ammo case

 

[Bozrdang]

Do you mean larger as in too large for some barrels or do you mean able to gauge more rounds at the same time?

I was replying to bds saying:

Most case gauges were meant for .355" sized bullets. If you are using .356"+ sized bullets, you really need to use your barrel as the case gauge (as rcmodel and other members already posted).

If my gauges won't work well with .356 bullets then I woul like some over-sized gauges that will work with them.

If the latter, my loading partner and I use a case gauge that holds 100 completed rounds.

That shockbottle is what I am wanting to get too, but others say to ditch the gauges and use the barrel. I get that will work but I want more convenience.

We do gauge every round that we intend to shoot in a match; if we're going to do that, we might as well check them all. It hardly takes any time to do it when you are check 100 at a time...plus inverting the gauge allows them to fill a 100 round ammo case

I don't shoot match, but I would still like to gauge all my ammo. I figure that can only help me learn proper technique.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Sounds like the easiest thing to do would be to go back to loading .355" bullets

 

[Dudedog]

You want the lead bullets to be .356 so there is nothing wrong there.
Sometimes coated bullets end up being oversized. Have you measured any of the bullets to see if they really are .356?
This could be what is causing you problems.

I use the Lee FCD with lead bullets but adjustment is important. You can really squeeze the bullets down if you are not careful. (and you don't want to do this) As BDS said poor neck tension can be a very bad thing.
The Lee seater die will crimp as well so you don't have to use the FCD. ( I like it, others hate it).
If you remove the sizing ring at the base all it will do is crimp, which is fine if that's what you want.
Since 9mm is tapered you can reduce the sizing by raising the die higher.

Some brass has thicker walls and that can cause an issue as well.

As to OAL different bullets of the same weight can have different profiles. You can use a shorter OAL but back off the powder charge.
IMO Alliants BE86 data for 9mm runs hot. This is just me but if I don't have data for a lead bullet I back off 10% from the jacketed charge.
Alliant list 5.8 MAX BE86 with a 124. For me 5.2 was approaching +P velocities. I prefer about 4.7 with 124s. There data seems hot for me with 147s as well, but I don't know how it is with 115s.

Remember the charge Alliant list is a MAX charge so back off 10% to start. Add another 10% for lead. With 115s they show 6.1 MAX so - 10% 5.5, another 10% 5.
From my past experience with BE86 I would start about 4.8 and you could try a slightly shorter OAL.
I am not saying this charge is say just a guesstimate...

As a side note Wiley E Coyote never seemed to have good luck with Acme stuff.

 

[Bozrdang]

I've done some more investigating and it seems like it all comes down to crimp. I took 100 cases and resized and deprimed them all and then ran them through the case gauge. All 100 passed. After loading, 38 failed to some degree (a lot of those were S&B and Tula, but also had Win, FC and others) and 10 of those also failed in my CZ's barrel. So I set about doing some measuring and I was getting 0.380 at the crimp on the failed ones and 0.377-0.378 on the ones that passed. I tightened the crimp up so that the that failed ones measured to 0.378 and now almost everything I pump out passes except for that odd one here and there (like 3 or 4 out of 100). But the problem is that there is a noticeable mark on the bullet very similar to the pic I posted earlier in this thread where I was told that was too much crimp. Crimp is the only thing I've tried that makes a difference. I even purchased a set of Dillon dies to see if there would be any change and I get the exact same thing.

 

[Dudedog]

Did you have a chance to measure the bullets and see if they are .356? (not larger)
You can use the FCD to "fix" the ones that won't chamber. (you can also use it lightly) If adjusted to "fix" the problem rounds you might be squeezing the bullet down and accuracy will suffer but you might prefer to do that and shoot them as opposed to pulling them apart.
I have had no issues with my Lee dies and since the Dillon dies did not solve the problem something else is going on.

 

[otisrush]

I use the barrel (per RC's advice) for every *bullet* configuration (manufacturer and specific bullet), not every round, that I'm setting up. I use the barrel to ensure the bullet is seated far enough so as to not engage the lands when chambered. (It falls easily into my hand when I turn the barrel upside down.) I only do this to get COL right. I want to be sure that specific manufactuer's specific bullet has a profile that doesn't interfere with the lands for a given COL.

Once that is done for a particular bullet I never check them in the barrel. I do, however, put every resized case through a case gauge, to ensure the case was sized appropriately. I read here (I hope I get this right) that some cases don't like to be resized and won't hold their size. My guess is 1-2% of my resized cases don't easily go into the case gauge - and in that scenario I toss the case. (If it plunks into the gauge or it can be fully seated with a minor amount of finger pressure, then I consider it "Passed". If I have to push remotely firmly to get it to seat then I toss it.)

Am I being too AR?

OR

 

[LiveLife]

No.

 

[Bozrdang]

Did you have a chance to measure the bullets and see if they are .356? (not larger)
You can use the FCD to "fix" the ones that won't chamber. (you can also use it lightly) If adjusted to "fix" the problem rounds you might be squeezing the bullet down and accuracy will suffer but you might prefer to do that and shoot them as opposed to pulling them apart.
I have had no issues with my Lee dies and since the Dillon dies did not solve the problem something else is going on.

My bullets measure a consistent .356. I don't feel any resizing taking place on the vast majority of the problem rounds I run through it. So that just leaves the crimp. Which apparently I'm using too much of.