leadcounsel
member
Can my modern CZ, Glock, Springfield handguns safely function on +P+ or +P ammo?
What is it about this ammo designator that makes it more potent?
What is it about this ammo designator that makes it more potent?
Question on +P+ ammo
- Thread starter leadcounsel
- Start date
- Status
FerFAL
Member
Yes, all those guns can take +P ( plus pressure) ammo. +P+ is not SAAMI regulated, so it’s kind of “ use at your own discretion”, best thing to do is to stick to quality brands with +P+ ammo.
You shouldn’t worry about a modern, quality made handgun blowing up because of +P ammo, its’ just that your gun will wear out faster if you use these hot loads on regular basis.
FerFAL
You shouldn’t worry about a modern, quality made handgun blowing up because of +P ammo, its’ just that your gun will wear out faster if you use these hot loads on regular basis.
FerFAL
+P+ is not SAAMI regulated, so it’s kind of “ use at your own discretion”
This is correct no industry standard for +P+. Before you decide +P or +P+ is for you look at some of the ballistics tables. I'm not a big fan of +P or +P+ in semi autos. You really don't gain a lot, 100-150 fps or so, in a round that's already travelling 1100-1200 fps (for 9mm). I saw the CCI/Speer chart and the penetration and expansion of their +P and +P+ wasn't a heck of a lot more (if any) than standard pressure ammo.
This is correct no industry standard for +P+. Before you decide +P or +P+ is for you look at some of the ballistics tables. I'm not a big fan of +P or +P+ in semi autos. You really don't gain a lot, 100-150 fps or so, in a round that's already travelling 1100-1200 fps (for 9mm). I saw the CCI/Speer chart and the penetration and expansion of their +P and +P+ wasn't a heck of a lot more (if any) than standard pressure ammo.
Tomcat47
Member
I have always had the opinion, If I want to carry a .38 special I will buy .38 special ammo. If I want a .357 magnum I will buy a .357 magnum and .357 ammo...I will not keep my .38 and in a futile attempt to make it a .357 buy +P ammo.
I have never been fond of the +P variants. As stated above wear & tear are increased and in some guns it is forbidden. I have seen older .38 Rossi and the like with a messed up cylinder due to +P ammo when the firearm came with instructions....do not use +P ammo! Rugers, Smiths, Colts and the like will take them...but why? I even seen a Jennings .22 bust a slide using CCI Stingers, which in reality is a +P .22
I would stay away from them.
I have never been fond of the +P variants. As stated above wear & tear are increased and in some guns it is forbidden. I have seen older .38 Rossi and the like with a messed up cylinder due to +P ammo when the firearm came with instructions....do not use +P ammo! Rugers, Smiths, Colts and the like will take them...but why? I even seen a Jennings .22 bust a slide using CCI Stingers, which in reality is a +P .22
I would stay away from them.
Lone_Gunman
Member
I am not sure that I would conclude that +P is bad based on experience with junky guns like Rossi and Jennings.
FerFAL
Member
Not on regular basis, but I don’t see anything wrong in keeping +P or +P+ for self defense if it works reliably in your gun. Let’s just say it, recoil isn’t that different, and the muzzle flash blinding you… try shooting it in the dark yourself and make up your own mind, if its as blinding as some say. I shot my 357 SIG in the dark, which is a respectable flamethrower and I wasn’t blinded, not at all.
FerFAL
FerFAL
alucard0822
Member
often times, especially in 9mm and 45acp the +P+ designation denotes ammo for use in sub machine guns. It is true most of the time there is a saami spec for +p, and +p+ is a spec somewhere in excess of that, but for use in machine guns where 124gr 9mm may reach 1400 fps, the powder loading and if present the hollow point cavity is optimised to this velocity/barell length, sometimes it will be marked 9mm +P** or 9mm C, This is not always the case, as the 147gr win rangers +p+ are just an above spec loading,
Tomcat47
Member
I agree LoneGunman.... I would not come to that conclusion either. I still see no real purpose for loading ammo hot for the small arms situation. That was my point.
There is only one firearm to my knowedge that lets you load ammo HOT! or allows a compressed charge and that is a single shot Thompson Contender.
And you would not need to worry about wear and tear there. Quality top name firearms will no doubt take the +P charge. My Ruger Security Six has seen many .38 +P, but it is also a .357 Magnum. My Taurus 85 has seen the same, but I merely do not like them. what you gain is ballistically insignificant!
There is only one firearm to my knowedge that lets you load ammo HOT! or allows a compressed charge and that is a single shot Thompson Contender.
And you would not need to worry about wear and tear there. Quality top name firearms will no doubt take the +P charge. My Ruger Security Six has seen many .38 +P, but it is also a .357 Magnum. My Taurus 85 has seen the same, but I merely do not like them. what you gain is ballistically insignificant!
HankB
Member
The maximum average pressure for 9mm P is 35,000 PSI, per SAAMI. For "+P" loads, it's 38,500 PSI.
There is no industry standard for "+P+" ammo, but some 9mm Parabellum ammo loaded by the major manufacturers has a warning sticker on the box indicating the ammo was loaded to 40,000 C.U.P.
There's no exact formula to convert from C.U.P. to P.S.I., but I would guess that 40,000 C.U.P. is probably in the neighborhood of 42,000 - 44,000 P.S.I.
There is no industry standard for "+P+" ammo, but some 9mm Parabellum ammo loaded by the major manufacturers has a warning sticker on the box indicating the ammo was loaded to 40,000 C.U.P.
There's no exact formula to convert from C.U.P. to P.S.I., but I would guess that 40,000 C.U.P. is probably in the neighborhood of 42,000 - 44,000 P.S.I.
dairycreek
Member
If the purpose of using +P (or +P+) ammo is to achieve increased velocity then, by all means, beware
I have done a lot of personal research using 9mm +P stuff and the increased velocity may or may not happen!
Also, there is a lot of stuff in the net about this as well. It seems as if that the increased velocity may occur in one gun but not another. However, the increased pressure takes place in every gun along with the increased wear that goes along with increased pressure.
So, to be sure, one should check out the effect (increased velocity) of using +P stuff in your gun of choice. You may not be getting what you have paid for.
I have done a lot of personal research using 9mm +P stuff and the increased velocity may or may not happen!Also, there is a lot of stuff in the net about this as well. It seems as if that the increased velocity may occur in one gun but not another. However, the increased pressure takes place in every gun along with the increased wear that goes along with increased pressure.
So, to be sure, one should check out the effect (increased velocity) of using +P stuff in your gun of choice. You may not be getting what you have paid for.
The 9mm 124 grain NATO FMJ load is at the +P+ level. It's hot stuff. My research states that the NATO load is rated at 42,000 psia (pounds per square inch, absolute). The Federal +P+ 115 grain JHP 9BP-LE averages a maximum pressure of 40,000 psia and the industry or SAAMi standard is 37,4000 psia. If anyone knows how to convert the psia to the copper units of pressure or cup please do so. I'm curious myself.
The NATO load has paper ballistics of 1,300 fps at the muzzle and the Federal +P+ 115 grain also has a muzzle velocity of 1,300 fps. It used to have a velocity of approximately 1,260, but Federal upped it in the nineties.
The Illinois State Police is credited with providing the momentum for the development of the +P+ load. The Illinois State Police was the first major police agency in the USA to go with a 9mm semi-auto pistol when it selected the S&W Model 39 in 1966. ISP initially issued the 124 grain FMJ load and the results were less then impressive. SO began the development of a hotter load over the 1970's and into the 80's. Federal and Winchester were the two developers of the hotter 9mm load. They basically had a contest.
Most of this information is from the Winter 1990 issue of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement. The article is titled Illinois State Police +P+ and was written by Ed Sanow. Yes that Ed Sanow.
I also got some of this info from Frank Barnes Cartridges of the World 10th Edition. Also see Federal's http://www.LE.ATK.com for further info.
I carry the Glock 19 and my department issues me the Federal load. I haven't had to use it on anybody (thank goodness). It does have more recoil then the standard 9mm load, but I've used it several times on reduced lighting shoots and I can't tell a difference between it's flash and the standard stuff. And I've compared them. The recoil is a little sharper in the GLock then in my Browning Hi-Power, but I don't think it's going to beat up my 19. I believe the 40 is much harder on handguns.
The NATO load has paper ballistics of 1,300 fps at the muzzle and the Federal +P+ 115 grain also has a muzzle velocity of 1,300 fps. It used to have a velocity of approximately 1,260, but Federal upped it in the nineties.
The Illinois State Police is credited with providing the momentum for the development of the +P+ load. The Illinois State Police was the first major police agency in the USA to go with a 9mm semi-auto pistol when it selected the S&W Model 39 in 1966. ISP initially issued the 124 grain FMJ load and the results were less then impressive. SO began the development of a hotter load over the 1970's and into the 80's. Federal and Winchester were the two developers of the hotter 9mm load. They basically had a contest.
Most of this information is from the Winter 1990 issue of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement. The article is titled Illinois State Police +P+ and was written by Ed Sanow. Yes that Ed Sanow.
I also got some of this info from Frank Barnes Cartridges of the World 10th Edition. Also see Federal's http://www.LE.ATK.com for further info.
I carry the Glock 19 and my department issues me the Federal load. I haven't had to use it on anybody (thank goodness). It does have more recoil then the standard 9mm load, but I've used it several times on reduced lighting shoots and I can't tell a difference between it's flash and the standard stuff. And I've compared them. The recoil is a little sharper in the GLock then in my Browning Hi-Power, but I don't think it's going to beat up my 19. I believe the 40 is much harder on handguns.
Jim March
Member
+P+ in the 38Spl in particular can be big trouble. A lot of it is really re-labeled 357, or close enough as to make little difference.
In the 45LC plain ol' "+P" is trouble unless your gun is full-on 44Magnum-class.
In the rest, +P is general no problem and +P+ is a crapshoot.
In the 45LC plain ol' "+P" is trouble unless your gun is full-on 44Magnum-class.
In the rest, +P is general no problem and +P+ is a crapshoot.
I think that the whole +P or +P+ argument just shows how inefective handguns in general really are. I mean, the desire to constantly up the performance of a round is indicative of a deeper problem: that round just doesn't cut it, or at least it is not "optimal". You don't have the same issues with long guns intended for defence. I haven't seen +P marked rifle ammo or 12Ga shells on the shelf. That should give an important message: No matter what you do to your handgun, it is sub-par. Don't let that fact surprise you during a serious event.
Handguns are a tradeoff. You get a (relatively) concealable weapon that is useful at close range, but you give up power and the greater accuracy of a rifle or shotgun. This is nothing new. Nevertheless the constant tweaking of handgun ammo has lead to more powerful rounds like the 357 mag and the 40 S&W. Handguns are more potent now then they used to be thanks to the tweaking.
bpisler
Member
If i can shoot them well and the pistol and
or revolver can handle the +P's that what's
what i'll use.
or revolver can handle the +P's that what's
what i'll use.
leadcounsel
member
Well, in all fairness, longgun ammo is CONSTANTLY tweeked to improve performance as well.
Tomcat47
Member
Ahh! but Long guns and the like, Ruger No.1's and Thompson Center Contenders, Encores, and other single shot rifles can handle higher pressures with ease. Even the trusty Marlin .30-.30 can handle some pretty hot stuff, however the reason for that to be BAD is tubular magazine detonation, (shell to shell) thus NO pointed bullets. However the accelerator version of ammo had special hardened primers to allow it. and it left the muzzle at 3500 fps and then accelerated.
Its not really apples to apples when considering rifle ammo. T/C put out there on reloading data for their produts and almost all of the loads were compressed charges.
Its not really apples to apples when considering rifle ammo. T/C put out there on reloading data for their produts and almost all of the loads were compressed charges.
The original reason for +P+ in .38 Special was purely political. It was/is loaded to near .357 Magnum specs and is marked to be used only in revolvers made for .357. But many civil rights groups protested the use of the "over-powered" .357 Magnum by police.
So the .38 Special +P+ gives the same result except that the police public relations guy can say, "The friendly River City police would never use the over-powered, evil, monstrous .357 Magnum; we use the same old .38 Special that has been in service since 1935, blah, blah..."
Jim
So the .38 Special +P+ gives the same result except that the police public relations guy can say, "The friendly River City police would never use the over-powered, evil, monstrous .357 Magnum; we use the same old .38 Special that has been in service since 1935, blah, blah..."
Jim
Okay one more reply and I'm out of here. My dad's department issued the +P+ 38 in the seventies. They carried the Model 28 and switched to the Model 65 in 78. I have a couple hundred rounds of the stuff. Winchester 110 grain semi-jacketd hollow point. It's a decently accurate round and the chrono shows it darn near equal to the 110 grain .357 magnum load.
You absolutely do not want to shoot this particular load in a 38 revolver.
You absolutely do not want to shoot this particular load in a 38 revolver.
Tomcat47
Member
Hi Roscoe...
havent heard of accelerator ammo? You can still get it also. It was intended to be a varmint round for a .30-.30 lever gun. It uses a .30-.30 casing with a .223 bullit in a .30 caliber teflon sabot ( kinda like a muzzle loader ) I believe my memory serves me well, they put it out in .30-.30 ,.30-06, .308
As it left the muzzle it dropped teflon sabot and the .223 accelerated due to ballistic coefficient of the smaller bullet.
I shot these a LOT in my 336, they perform very well. I used it for coyotes,
groundhogs, and other varmints. I took a groundhog at about 225 yards.
I also did take a whitetail with it at about 110 yards. It dropped like a rock due to a well placed neck shot, but I do not recomend it for whitetail.
Remington still list it on there website. www.remington.com
type accelerator in search box. itonly lists for .30-.30 and .30-06 now in a core lokt 55 grain
they are cool! and have specia hard primers for the tube magazine thing
havent heard of accelerator ammo? You can still get it also. It was intended to be a varmint round for a .30-.30 lever gun. It uses a .30-.30 casing with a .223 bullit in a .30 caliber teflon sabot ( kinda like a muzzle loader ) I believe my memory serves me well, they put it out in .30-.30 ,.30-06, .308
As it left the muzzle it dropped teflon sabot and the .223 accelerated due to ballistic coefficient of the smaller bullet.
I shot these a LOT in my 336, they perform very well. I used it for coyotes,
groundhogs, and other varmints. I took a groundhog at about 225 yards.
I also did take a whitetail with it at about 110 yards. It dropped like a rock due to a well placed neck shot, but I do not recomend it for whitetail.
Remington still list it on there website. www.remington.com
type accelerator in search box. itonly lists for .30-.30 and .30-06 now in a core lokt 55 grain
they are cool! and have specia hard primers for the tube magazine thing
Standard pressure ammo is manufactured to be safe in older guns. Most of our popular pistol cartridges have been around for nearly 100 years, and so have some of the guns that shoot them. New guns made of modern steel can stand a lot more pressure than the first guns made for these cartridges.
Most of the guns made today are approved for this ammo by the makers. If you want a bit more 'modern' load for your gun, then get the +P. While I do not shoot +P as much as WWB or similar, some of my favorite field and SD loads are +P.
Most of the guns made today are approved for this ammo by the makers. If you want a bit more 'modern' load for your gun, then get the +P. While I do not shoot +P as much as WWB or similar, some of my favorite field and SD loads are +P.
Thats raises a question though that we are all supposed to think about when buying a gun to begin with:
IS the firearms chambering sufficient for what we plan to do with it?
It seems you decided regular ammunition in your current calibers is not sufficient for what you want. So why not get a gun with a more powerful chambering?
Say if 45acp is not good enough, why not go get a 357 or a 44 special and so on?
And for Ruger fans who load 45 colt to 454 pressure, why not just sell your ruger and get a Taurus in 454 and have all the power you want?
IS the firearms chambering sufficient for what we plan to do with it?
It seems you decided regular ammunition in your current calibers is not sufficient for what you want. So why not get a gun with a more powerful chambering?
Say if 45acp is not good enough, why not go get a 357 or a 44 special and so on?
And for Ruger fans who load 45 colt to 454 pressure, why not just sell your ruger and get a Taurus in 454 and have all the power you want?
- Status
Similar threads
