Question regarding more powerful loadings

[ScratchnDent]

I trust there is good reason when the experts and professionals list any given load as "Maximum, Never Exceed". Blowing up a gun, injuring myself, or worse, someone standing next to me at the range, just is not worth the risk.

 

[cheygriz]

You can safely load +P ammo.

Just follow the manual EXACTLY!

We can't measure pressure directly, but a good indicator is case life.

If I work up to a "hot" load in 9mm +P (for example) and the primer pockets start to loosen after 2 or 3 loadings, I consider that load to have too much pressure.

If I can reload the same case 5 or 6 times, I feel comfortable with the pressure levels.

I've found that by carefully selecting the powder, I can often exceed factory +P velocity at less than maximum charge weight, and load a case 10 or more times.

 

[243winxb]

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/demystplusp_0306-7/ Some firearms can not shoot +P ammo.

 

[Ughh]

It may not apply to the .45 ACP, but in many cases with .38 Spec., 9mm, etc, you will find loads listed in reloading manuals that exceed factory +P velocity without reaching +P pressure.

And it's not the pressure of +P you want to duplicate, it's the extra velocity of +P you are after.
So if you can get it at standard pressure, so much the better.
rc

Exactly.... I'm after velocity. My book makes no mention of high velocity rounds, except only under the .40 S&W, and when only considering the 3 mainstream semi auto rounds.
So how do i achieve high velocity with my 9mm without raising pressure, as what you're referring to.??

 

[Ughh]

You can safely load +P ammo.

Just follow the manual EXACTLY!

We can't measure pressure directly, but a good indicator is case life.

If I work up to a "hot" load in 9mm +P (for example) and the primer pockets start to loosen after 2 or 3 loadings, I consider that load to have too much pressure.

If I can reload the same case 5 or 6 times, I feel comfortable with the pressure levels.

I've found that by carefully selecting the powder, I can often exceed factory +P velocity at less than maximum charge weight, and load a case 10 or more times.

How?? What powder are you talking about/using?

What velocity did you achieve with your 9mm?

 

[243winxb]

Ughh, go to Hodgdon http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp Pick the caliber you want to load for. This site has 3 different brands of powders. Pick the one that gives you top velocity with the components listed. Use the starting load and work up the powder charge. Look for top velocity with lowest pressure.

 

[FROGO207]

Keep in mind that FASTER is most often NOT most accurate. The variables that are at play allow you to taylor (tune) the round for max accuracy in YOUR particular firearm. What is dead on in one of mine may not even work at all in yours. That is why it is so important to start 10% below max grains and "work up" to what is best for your own firearm. I don't think anyone on this or any other site is good enough to give you the "perfect" load without any working up involved. IMO you have to do a little experimentation yourself to get to that sweet spot. You may get away with using someone else's data and it may work OK but is it the best choice----likely not, safe if under max? yes but are you willing to let it be just OK. Not me, I will take the time to do it well.

 

[LiveLife]

So how do i achieve high velocity with my 9mm without raising pressure, as what you're referring to?

= WARNING = I do not endorse the following, but posting for educational purposes only.

Ughh, if you are simply trying to get higher velocity without raising the pressure, you can lighten the 115 grain FMJ bullet by removing lead from the exposed base while using the fastest velocity published max load data. Precise "conical" removal of the base would provide the most stable platform for expanding gas to push against the bullet base with equal pressure.

100gr bullet will be faster than 115gr bullet shot with the same amount of powder charge.

How light can you go? That depends on the physical structure of the bullet type you are using before it begins to deform when you are seating the bullet.

How much can you proportionally increase the powder charge to make up for the decrease in bullet weight? Ahhhhh, this is where the math and precision instruments come to play and I can't comment.

= WARNING = This was posted for educational purposes only.

 

[LiveLife]

Ughh, how about 1,700 fps?

You can also use commercially available lighter "frangible" bullets (compressed clay or metallic powder) to obtain higher velocities (71gr-100gr 9mm bullets):

Accutec USA® Ultra-Frangible® R2X2 Brand Projectiles (71g-83gr) : 9mm HP 71gr 1700 fps - http://www.accutecusa.com/specs.htm

SinterFire Frangible (75gr-100gr): http://www.sinterfire.com/components.html#standard_duty

 

[Redneck with a 40]

I don't mess with hot loads, why bother? Its hard on the gun, hard on the brass, not as accurate, more recoil. What's the appeal? 100 fps isn't going to make a damn bit of difference out of a pistol anyway. I load in the middle of the load range, its been working great.

 

[bullseye308]

Why is it that you feel you need more speed? What is it that you are after that a slower bullet won't achieve?

Most of the time your most accurate round will be at the middle of the chart as far as speed goes. Almost anyone here will tell you that as speed increases accuracy decreases.

I load my 9mm just under 1000 fps and can change the sex of a mosquito from across the room. Bump up the speed and I might miss the tv.

Let us know why you need the speed and we'll see how close you can safely get to it. What components do you have available to you, and which firearm do you plan to use to test these loads in? Answer these and we will have a better understanding of your goals and the limits of the firearm.

 

[cheygriz]

I load mostly 9MM for pistol. SAAMI spec loads are very low pressure compared to the "standards" of the rest of the world.

Pick a slow powder like HS-6, AAC#7 or Herco, and work up until you see pressure signs, then back off.


My 115 grainers make 1350-1375 easily. Factory +p makes 1200-1225. +P+ makes 1300-1325 My primers don't flatten and I can load the case multiple times.


for .38, and .45, I follow the +P recipes in the manuals pretty much, although if you're careful you can use a slower powder and exceed them a small amount.


My 185 +P .45s factory Golden Sabres barely make 1100 in my 1911. Still FAR superior to the 230 pumpkin rollers in my opinion, but nothing to write home about.


My handloadeded 185s make 1150. Not enough difference to spit at. If I could safely make 1250, I'd go for it in a heartbeat, but I haven't been able to do it.

An interesting experience is to look at the difference between the max loads of new manuals, and 25 year old manuals. The powder formulation hasn't changed. :banghead:

The pressure hasn't changed. :banghead: And the steel of the newer guns is even better.

But the newer lawyers have changed!

 

[rcmodel]

As have the newer transducer pressure measuring equipment that measures peak chamber pressure all the way. The old copper crusher method they used to use didn't tell all the details.

Much of the old data was not even pressure tested in lab equipment.
My old Speer manuals used actual guns to test loads, and many loads they published were off the charts in pressure test equipment today.

BTY: This is a learning forum which gets a lot of traffic from new reloaders seeking advice.
I personally think it is ill advised to tell them to ignore newly published data and just go for it until they see pressure signs.

Max allowable pressure for most handgun calibers is well below where you would be able to see pressure signs until you were already way past safe limits.

And many of these new reloaders wouldn't recognize a pressure sign if it jumped up and bit them on the azz.

rc

 

[cheygriz]

Well, RC you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

And it's worth as much, or as little as anyone else's opinion.

 

[Walkalong]

I have to agree with rc, and many others who posted similar views. Newbies need to stick with loads in manuals and not try to push the limits.

Experienced reloaders can do that to their hearts content for all I care, but I would never suggest it to new relaoders. I don't think it is responsible to do so. AC

 

[cheygriz]

I didn't suggest disregarding the manuals. I simply said that the newer manuals are written more to please the corporate lawyers than the ballistic people in the labs.

 

[John Wayne]

Some manuals list load data for +P loadings. Others have standard load data exceeding the velocity for some manufacturer's "+P" ammo. The Lee load manual, for example, lists .38 special +P but not 9mm +P. Some of the 9mm loads contained therein are very fast.

Loading +P is perfectly fine as long as you're doing it in a gun made for it, and USING PUBLISHED DATA. When you start trying to bump up a standard load beyond published data thinking that you'll just end up with a "plus p" load is when you'll run into trouble.

I just started reloading recently, and came across a good piece of advice: "There are old reloaders and there are bold reloaders. There are no old bold reloaders!"

 

[Walkalong]

I didn't suggest disregarding the manuals.

Very true, but what the OP was asking how to do was much more than that.

What I'm asking is how did you guys get .45 acp to go higher to 1200 fps?

I guess my question is: How do you make +P loadings? Or how do you make higher velocity loadings then what the book says.

Like my book, the same one, says the 9mm loadings only reaching as high as 1,150 fps. How do I go about getting 1300 fps, like the Cor-Bon +P loading, or the Black hills 115gr +P loading.

 

[1911Tuner]

You don't. You stay within the guidelines.

Sound advice.

As a wise man noted:

Ther's nothing that you can prove with a handload that hasn't already been proven, and the pressure required to accelerate a 200 grain bullet to 1200 fps in 4.1 inches of rifling is more than sufficient to blow your eyeballs through the back of your head.

 

[jfh]

cheygriz, I agree that the latest manuals are edited with corporate liability in mind as much as with making available accurate information about pressures to the reloading public. However, when I looked into these issues extensively two-plus years ago, I did find exactly what rc reported: while there is CYA going on, IMO, there also has been a genuine measurement-technology change in nominally the last ten years. Measurement techniques are become more standardized--e.g., pressure barrels using stress couplers--and those changes combined with ballistic analysis software have fine-tuned the findings. However, these tools' use still need to be refined and standardized. AFAICT, it's the availablility of the software--which identifies the first, second (and maybe-even-third) pressure peaks--that drives much of the adjusted recipes. I'm not wholly convinced of that testing-component's accuracy--but it is closer than anything else.

A classic example of adjusted loads are those "Speer 8" SR-4756 recipes for 38 Special. In their latest data, Hodgdon truncates the data for both 38 Special and 357 so much that the max charges are what were barely considered the start charges. The velocity measurements I got from the new data confirm these are "weird." Digging into those #8 loads includes doing a historical study of reloading journalism as well as a careful reading of 1970s quasi-technical reports of pressure-measuring techniques; it brought a wealth of information to me. Unfortunately, the most extensive public / layman's record is no longer available. I suspect that Hodgdon truncated their current reports because of those #8 discussions on the S&W forum--simply for CYA. But, 4756 does appear to have a late / third pressure spike; so their might be genuine limitations the layman cannot readily identify.

I've previously said that I consider reading "pressure signs" in reloading components to be on a par with astrological fortune-telling using goat entrails. Maybe you can do it with your very-limited range of firearms and components--but if you can, write it up; such a book will make you millions. (Note I am not being sarcastic in that suggestion--seriously, do it.)

Jim H.

 

[LightningMan]

Just for the heck of it I looked in my Hodgdon No. 26 manual, in the +P section for .45 acp and the only load that comes close to 1200 fps is using a 185 gr. JHP. This load uses 10grs of HS6, that will get you 1162 fps out of a 5" test barrel, with a CUP at 19,900. Even with that said, I doubt you will achieve that velocity with this loading, as it seems they always get more fps out of test barrels rather than shooting it out of a real gun.

 

[LiveLife]

it seems they always get more fps out of test barrels rather than shooting it out of a real gun.

I have wondered about this too in the past. I think what may contribute to this is the fact that the manufacturers used full length 5" barrels mounted to SOLID machine rest or blocks that doesn't move compared to us shooters' SOFT hands/arms recoiling back when we fire our pistols. Maybe???

 

[Walkalong]

Some of the energy cycles the gun. Not so in a test barrel. Some manuals use test barrels longer than the normal gun barrel as well. Seems silly to me. Maybe it makes their powders look good.

 

[Sport45]

The manuals are also written so that the published loads will be safe in ALL firearms they might be used in. When you do your own load development you are testing the limits of YOUR gun, not just the brass. For instance, it would be easy to work up a .38 special load in a Redhawk that would show no pressure signs. That same load would likely turn your Model 36 into a grenade.

 

[Ughh]

So when it says 'Start Charge', that means that it is a light-recoil and low velocity charge?

And when it says 'Maximum Charge' and has those higher velocity, then it means +P? Or is does +P negate velocity and means only high pressured??