Questionable Family Hunting Traditions?

[sixgunner455]

The common law treatment of poaching was predicated on the fact that the animal's were all the property of the crown.

Amen, ATEK. That is what I kept thinking about as I've read this thread - the Crown, in most countries, owned all wild game and would hang a man as a thief for subsistence hunting, regardless of what species it was. The common man did not have the right to hunt, as this was the "Sport of Kings" (and their favored courtiers). Many hunting dog species were developed to assist the common man in sneaking on to royal or noble hunting preserves to get a few birds for the pot.

When people came to North America, the game belonged to whomever could kill or catch it, and this continued in the United States until the market hunting reductions in population in the early part of the 20th century necessitated some game laws be instituted so that wild animal populations could recover. Hunters, the common man of that era, supported this effort, and we continue to do so today, whether we realize it or not, by the taxes and fees we pay when we buy guns, ammo, and pay license fees.

I personally do not feel that poaching is theft. The State does not own that animal -- all of the people do. I do feel that it is wrong, and a crime, because the social compact we live under includes following the laws. The game laws exist to ensure the survival and continuation of those species instead of having them hunted to extinction, like the passenger pigeon. Our social compact as hunters and members of society means that we abide by the game laws because we recognize the good that they do.

If a law is illogical, out of date, or unfair, then we do not have the right to flout that law. Instead, we have a responsibility, also part of that social charter, to work to change the law so that it makes sense, is up to date with current populations of game, is fair, or whatever.

Hanging a person for poaching makes no sense whatsoever. Taking their truck, gun, etc, and anything else they used to poach, banning them from hunting for a period of time or for life, putting them in jail if they are an egregious offender, etc, is pretty harsh. Killing them is completely unreasonable, and an unacceptable level of punishment. That was one of many reasons that people emigrated from Europe so long ago - to escape that kind of autocratic, authoritarian garbage.

 

[atek3]

That was one of many reasons that people emigrated from Europe so long ago - to escape that kind of autocratic, authoritarian garbage.

here here

 

[average_shooter]

Maybe someone already mentioned it, if so I missed it, but there is a correlation between poaching and stealing meat from a store. And there is a way to legally own the game on your property.

As I understand it, some states have large ranch/preserves. The animals on this land are owned by the land owners. To keep their property on their land, and to keep wild populations out, they must construct and maintain high fences surrounding the property. In such a circumstance the game within the boundary is considered to be the property of the land owner.

Wild game is relatively free to move where it wants to. There can be no one owner of the game. Thus, by default, it is the "property" of the state.

If game ownership is merely dependent upon whose property the game is currently on, who would rightfully own the animal if I shoot it on my property but it runs to and dies on yours?

 

[buck460XVR]

That was one of many reasons that people emigrated from Europe so long ago - to escape that kind of autocratic, authoritarian garbage.

here here

Yep that's right. Folks didn't like the rules so they moved on. Same is true for today. You don't like the rules move on. Break the rules, ignore the law and you are a criminal, pretty simple. We live in a democratic society, where rules are decided by the majority. Every independent adult that lives here has the freedom to leave if they don't like it here. Don't like a law, do something positive to change it, tolerate it and abide by it or get the 'ell out. We got enough criminals here the way it is.

Amazed at the amount of people here at THR that justify breaking a law just becasue they don't agree with it. Says a lot about them.

 

[SavageManAntonio]

I have heard some outrageous statements before but some here are incomprehensible to me. I agree that there must be a reasonable punishment for breaking the law, certainly not confiscating all property and hanging...I do hear gunshots every year the day before the season opens and have seen spooked deer running after that, so I know there are poachers near me. Every year I hear gun shots before and after legal hours during the season. I do believe some people may have a watch that is wrong so a few minutes is understandable, an hour....not so much. It is those kind of A..holes that make it harder for us to hunt and have weapons. Personally, if I ever see it happen I will call the DEC and report it. We all have a responsibility to.

 

[Mike1234567]

Personally, if I ever see it happen I will call the DEC and report it. We all have a responsibility to.

Carry a small digital camera or camcorder with you... one with a fairly long zoom lens.

 

[SavageManAntonio]

I have been stewing over this. I still can't believe people justify what they are doing because they are on their own property or because it doesn't affect someone else....IT DOES!!!! When the deer population is decimated because of off-season hunting it affects all of us. Breaking the law also gives other hunters bad reputations in the eyes of the already skeptical, non-hunting, non-gun owner public. Shame on you whom justify your illegal actions. This is not the depression where people are starving and need food. This is not war time in our country. There is no well-meaning reason for poaching. If you are a landowner - prove that your property is being damaged to the DEC and get legal permission to hunt.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

prove that your property is being damaged to the DEC and get legal permission to hunt.

Who or What is DEC?

 

[SublimeSilence]

In the end this entire debate boils down to one basic principle. Do the ends justify the means?

I think for anyone to say that the death penalty is a fair punishment for poaching is going a bit far(personally). I can understand the sentiment as to why, but when making that distinction one starts to go down a slippery slope. If one starts there then why not make adultery punishable by death as well, it was done in biblical times so why not now? Heck that would be a great way to weed out some of the bad politicians!

But in the end everything in America comes down to what the populous wants. As Americans we over hunted many species and brought them to near extinction(buffalo anyone?) It is because of that, that the laws were put in place to protect many of the species we nearly killed off so that future generations could hunt and enjoy them.

When someone starts to bring up issues that can be argued and defined as shades of grey, such as breaking the law because it is unjust. Things start to get dicey. Is stealing a loaf of bread justifiable if your family is starving(poaching a dear for meat.) Is killing an animal that is protected alright when it is killing your livestock(grey wolves) or destroying your crop(deer coming onto your land due to overpopulation in search of food.) It is also always important to try reason if particular laws are causing more harm then good at times(anti-gun laws, prohibition, and some might argue the current war on drugs)

I'm not going to preach my personal views on this issue past what I already have because I think others have expressed them well enough. But I think we all(on any side of the debate) shouldn't overlook the value of prudence when discussing issues like this. Also keep in mind that no matter how moral our value system we come to believe is, that in the end it is just our opinion of how things should be based on how/why/where/and under what circumstances we grew up and came to be adults(Phenomenology.)

 

[SublimeSilence]

Who or What is DEC?

A quick google search led me to this answer:
department of environmental conservation

 

[jimmyraythomason]

department of environmental conservation

Thanks,having been hunting since I was just big enough to tag along with my dad(I'm 58) I've never heard of DEC(here it is the Dept.of Natural Resources). Asking "permission" to take out a rabbit destroying a bean crop or a possum in the henhouse or a deer in the pea patch just seems so subservient to a "higher" authority. I think this is quite different from what the OP was talking about though.

 

[SublimeSilence]

Thanks,having been hunting since I was just big enough to tag along with my dad(I'm 58) I've never heard of DEC(here it is the Dept.of Natural Resources). Asking "permission" to take out a rabbit destroying a bean crop or a possum in the henhouse or a deer in the pea patch just seems so subservient to a "higher" authority. I think this is quite different from what the OP was talking about though.

Every state I believe has it's own entity of gov. you have to talk to. Being that I've just become interested in hunting though(I'm 25) I really don't know enough to say. My understanding is that in IL you have to talk to the DNR about issues like this. I also know that in IL when my good friends dad had problems with white tail deer on his property(In many parts/if not most of cook county white tail deer are overpopulated) the DNR itself came out to deal with it rather than giving him permission to do anything.

 

[.45Guy]

We live in a democratic society, where rules are decided by the majority.

Really? Last time I checked most legislation wasn't decided by plebiscite, especially game laws... If such were the case we would most likely not require this specific subforum, as hunters are a minority in this country.

 

[oneounceload]

We live in a democratic society, where rules are decided by the majority.

We live in a Republic and are subject to the rule of law, not majority rule

 

[scythefwd]

Horse stealing, cattle resulting were/are hanging offenses

In many cases they are grand theft larceny. Back in the day, when it was practiced, it was a persons lively hood. It very well could have been taking food out of someones mouth. Food they couldn't buy.

Today, not the case. FIND ME a case in the last 50 years where one person was hung for horse or cattle theft of only 2 or 3 animals. The non commercial poachers that this thread was posted about fall into that category. To lump them into the same category as someone that goes out and kills 40 deer in a night for antlers, glands, etc... and give them a death sentence is a bit of a stretch. Now, if the the person really is taking food off your table, not potential food that you could have gotten yourself but ACTUALLY making your family miss meals because there isn't food that would have been supplied by hunting... then you might have a case. I can't think of many in that situation.

 

[scythefwd]

Taking that into consideration, i don't think its necessarily "right" to force the landowner to apply and buy a deer tag just like a non-landowner

Here in VA, the landowner hunts without license or tags. He is limited to dailly bag limit and possibly overall limits.

The state is concerned about the health of the herd statewide... Many land owners are concerened about the size of the herd in their back yard. I could hunt the herd here till nothing was left... if everybody did that, you'd kill the whole herd in the state. I don' think enough people have the restraint to pass up a good buck or two just to keep the herd thriving. In general, I find people don't think that far ahead. That is all the state thinks about... If I don't let you take every buck in the herd... I can keep it going.

. I was writing about the scarcity of dear in my immediate area. Surprisingly few when I first moved here and now none at all to be seen

Come on over here to VA with an out of state tag... you'll find no shortage of deer. I get 6 tags every year... no lottery. Little more expensive... but our herd is suitable strong.

 

[der Teufel]

Maybe someone already mentioned it, if so I missed it, but there is a correlation between poaching and stealing meat from a store. And there is a way to legally own the game on your property.

As I understand it, some states have large ranch/preserves. The animals on this land are owned by the land owners. To keep their property on their land, and to keep wild populations out, they must construct and maintain high fences surrounding the property. In such a circumstance the game within the boundary is considered to be the property of the land owner.

I don't think that's how it works in Texas. If you construct a high fence and enclose some white tail deer or turkeys or ??? all you've done is enclose some game animals. Ownership doesn't change. Now, if you enclose or add non-game or exotic animals, those can be considered your property just as if you were raising cattle or goats. Game animals however, still belong to the state and the game rules must be followed. Limits and seasons apply, tags must be used where required, etc.

 

[22-rimfire]

It is simple for me... I'd turn them in unless they stopped shooting game out of season. My Dad did stuff like that when he was young. He grew up very poor and I suspect it was a result of his heritage. When he learned that his children were ready to turn him in, it stopped.

 

[Zombiphobia]

I'm not very keen on law and politics so I would appreciate mature and respectful responses to this question.


If we live in a society where the rule is determined by the majority, what is the purpose of the electoral college and how does it work?
Seems to me the electoral college has the authority to over-rule the vote of the majority. I may be wrong, but what's the deal here?


Either way, Malum Prohibitum Vs Malum In Se....

Hunting out of season for meat to live is one thing. Hunting out of season to get a head-start and as 'family tradition' is quite another.

Also, shooting animals to keep them out of your crops I'd say is ok, as long as you don't leave the animal to waste. BUT shooting that animal just because you see them and they hold still long enough is NOT ok.

Also, stealing food from a grocery store because you can't afford to buy it is different than stealing electronics or other devices to entertain yourself.

I hold little to no value whatsoever in obeying law simply because that law is written that way. A certain understanding of what is actually right and wrong goes into my actions and how I judge others.

Like self defense with lethal force. For soem reason it's ok in some places but not in others. Does that make it morally right or wrong to defend yourself just because the written law says so? No.
And that brings up my next point. Whoever mentioned sociopathic tendencies I think, was right on the money. Some people lack the mental capacity to fully understand these types of matters.

I do think though, that the type of person who whole-heartedly beleives in and obeys every single law just because it's written law, has got their head screwed on wrong. Those are the types easiest to control, and those are the types a tyrranical government will have no problems with.


Have I shot deer out of season? Yes, a few. But only a few.
Do I feel bad about it? Yes, but not because it's 'illegal'.
Do I do it to get a head-start? No. I do it when I need meat and can't afford the over-priced stuff in stores. Game wardens? Few and far between and besides, their meat usually goes to organized charities. Get a plate-full of lousy, improperly prepared food or get a freezer full of safely handled, properly cooked food... hmmm I think the decision is pretty easy for me to make.

And gee, if I get caught.. well, I guess our government shouldn't be robbing me at every turn, should they? But then they can feed me 3 square meals a day and I'll finally get medical care. And yes, most of the deer I have shot out of season were on government land.

So my view is this. Do it if you need to, not because it's 'tradition'. Thats just silly in my opinion.

And my personal opinion is most people who preach solid right and wrong and will condemn a person for anything and everything they deem to be 'wrong' have never been in any position of need themselves, and because of this will find every reason imagneable to view themselves as being a more Holy soul than thou.

Anyhoo, this 'tradition' thing.. yeah, I think what their doing is wrong. If it's on private land ok... as long as their not shooting pregnant does or a spotted fawn, or a doe with a spotted fawn etc... something that should be obviously detrimental to the survival of the species.. than whatever. I just probably wouldn't hunt with them.

if it's public land, and their doing ok money-wise and not doing this because they actually NEED to, than I'd probably be a jerk and turn them in.

 

[Mike1234567]

Zombi... I can't morally argue against anything you posted. However, I will say that, IMHO as shaped by my 50+ years of life experience, most (not all) folks who perform illegal acts do so because they're either lazy, greedy, or just cruel. Additionally, IMHO, these are all related to psychopathy.

 

[FLAvalanche]

i know its poaching and illegal. on that note though... does anyone have family/friends that hunt legally ( licenses, season dates) but only use one hunting implement during all 3 seasons. ie: they use a rifle for bow-rifle-muzzle loader seasons.

just curious.

I hunt with a license but use one implement throughout all the seasons. I use a bow, which is legal in Florida.

My only complaint is that I have to purchase a muzzleloader stamp in order to use my bow during muzzleloader...

 

[.45Guy]

If we live in a society where the rule is determined by the majority, what is the purpose of the electoral college and how does it work?
Seems to me the electoral college has the authority to over-rule the vote of the majority. I may be wrong, but what's the deal here?

There are only 12 states at present that allow for maverick electors, though there are several with ballot initiatives to allow for split electoral decision.

 

[ljnowell]

I do not support poaching but I have to ask a question. I see a lot of people here that are saying "we cant pick and choose what rules to follow" or "it doesnt matter whats right, its illegal and thats that." While I do not refute those statements I have to ask if that is the general feeling why do I see such things posted as "concealed means concealed?" Surely this is ignoring rules we do not like, isnt it?

 

[jimmyraythomason]

"it doesnt matter whats right, its illegal and thats that."

Here is a situation that i was personally involved in. I live along a State Highway which is a major travel route. One Sunday afternoon I saw a motorist pulled over in front of my house and looking into the ditch. He looked like he was in a bit of a quandry but soon left. I assumed he or some-one had hit an animal and unable to help it had just left. I went over and sure enough there was a dog,(only a puppy actually) eviserated but very much alive. I called the sheriff's office for the animal control officer and was told he was off duty and could not be reached. I requested a deputy to come euthanize the poor creature. No deputy available. I reminded the deputy about Alabama's law against killing dogs(a felony)as well as the law against discharging a firearm by a public road. Sorry says the deputy,"we can't help. What you do about it is up to you.". Not willing to let it suffer any longer I shot it,brought it to my property and buried it. In doing so,I broke not one but two state laws. Should I now be hung for it?

 

[788Ham]

jimmyray, I think the good Lord was smiling on you for helping the poor animal, you're a good man!
As far as being able to hunt without a license because you're the landowner, that doesn't apply in Colorado. Someone earlier in this thread said they thought it was terrible to confiscate ones firearms, vehicles, and equipment for poaching, here in this state, that's exactly what happens. Several years back, a family I grew up with, got their clan together and went elk hunting, packed in about 14 miles to set up camp on Thur., the season opened on Sat. When they were within a short distance of where they always camped, another camp was set up, two big 6 point bulls and two nice 4 point Mule deer bucks hanging in the shade. They went on in to their campsite, one rider had to return to get something they'd forgotten. On the ride out, he ran into 2 G&F officers checking things out before the season opened. Upon telling the officers of the find, they rode in and proceeded to confiscate the whole camp, lock, stock and barrel. By the time the Texas residents were through with the court system, they were charged a total of, IIRC, about $95K apiece for the animals taken, lost all of their equipment and were barred from hunting or fishing in the state for 10 more years, seems like they were given 6 mos. jail time, but the judge dropped 2 mos. off of that time for time already served. Seems fair to me.