Questionable procedures by police last night

[DunedinDragon]

I had an incident with the local police last night and although I generally think they handled things pretty well, there were a couple of things that are still bothering me about it.

First, the call was initiated due to a verbal confrontation I had with a bus driver who had blocked access through a parking lot. It was not much more than some yelling, but he had his dispatcher call the police and report me as a drunk driver (which is kind of hard since I don't drink at all).

At any rate, I was parked in the parking lot and three units pulled up behind me. The main officer came to my window and asked if I had been drinking. I told him no and that I didn't drink. He asked me for my license and I gave him both my license and my CCW and told him I had a weapon on me, what it was, and where I had it on my body. He told me to keep my hands on the wheel while he checked my license.

At about that time one of the other officers tapped on my passenger side window for me to unlock that door. I unlocked it and at that time the first officer asked me to step out so he could disarm me. I complied and he took my gun out of my OWB holster and unloaded it with the slide locked back. He then gave me a quick field sobriety test and determined I was sober. I really can't say what the other two officers were doing when I was taking the field sobriety test, but they certainly had access to my car.

The officer on the passenger side then asked me if that was a scanner I had in my center console. I told him yes and he reached in and grabbed it to examine it. He asked me what I used it for and I told him I just listen to what's going on. He asked me who I monitor and I told him the police and sheriff. At about that time the third officer had my gun and magazine on the passenger side of the car and asked me about it. I told him it was a P220 and that I'd only had it a few weeks. The main officer then asked if they were ready to leave and the third officer put the gun and bullet from the chamber on the seat and opened my glove compartment to place the magazine in there. When he opened the glove compartment he pointed at one of the items in there and asked me what it was. I told him it was the owners manual for my truck. He placed the magazine in there, closed the glove compartment and they left.

Although I don't have any real problems with the way things occurred, there were a couple of things there that I think MIGHT have been problems under different circumstances. Certainly I don't believe they had any right to reach into my vehicle for any reason. They had neither asked nor had I given consent to search my vehicle, and I don't think there was anything at that point that could be eligible to be called probable cause. Most clearly they didn't have any right to open up the glove compartment. After thinking about it, under those circumstances if a bag of cocaine had fallen out of the glove compartment when they opened it, there would have been nothing they could have legally done.

I'm also not sure they really had any right to be asking me questions about what I used my scanner for. The only time a scanner would be considered illegal is if it was used during the commission of a felony, which was clearly not the case here.

I'm not really upset about any of it, but I do think I should report it as it indicates to me that there's a pretty significant misunderstanding or lack of training of their officers in regard to 4th amendment rights and probable cause. I think the fact that I was legally armed and had a scanner presented a real test to these officers as that's not something they come across every day, but in that regard they didn't really handle things as well as they probably should have.

I just feel like something needs to be said to their department about this. It's not like they really screwed up in this case, but under different circumstances it could have been a major screw up.

 

[exar]

It's a Catch 22. You could have told them that you didn't consent to a search because you feel it violates your right to privacy. They will always dig around but it's your responsibility to be aware of what they're doing and to say something. If you deny them access, this will arouse suspicion especially since you have a handgun and a scanner and a complaint was made against you AND they were told you were intoxicated. This scenario can be a headache just to defend a right to privacy, unfortunately. They can just impound your vehicle and get a warrant to search it, then tear it apart and leave it in shambles (seen it done). Your other choice is to comply to avoid the hassle and just have to live with the fact that the police can violate your rights at will and there's little or nothing you can do. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[orangeninja]

Couple of points from a LEO point of view.

1.) When you informed them of the weapon, they have the right to disarm you for the duration of the encounter. Nothing personal, officer safety issue, I've done it myself. I know you have a CHL or a RKBA, but I'm going home at the end of the day, and you were reported drunk so disarming you while giving a sobriety test only makes sense.

2.) The officer can ask you about the scanner. He can ask you about your favorite color, you mother's underwear size, anything. It’s a free country and he can ask. It's also a free country and you don't have to say a dang thing. The same freedom that protects you protects cops. You didn't have to answer, but you did good on ya.

3.) There are more than a couple of police imposters. Here in North Texas we have a police imposter committing rapes. Did you know that a large percentage of serial killer rapists are also big time police buffs? They like police equipment, badges, fake I.D.'s guns, etc. Not merely "tools" of the trade for a killer. I have no idea why this is other than a power fantasy. They were just feeling you out, no big deal.

4.) The cops probably did not search your car if they asked what your manual was after opening the glove box. But they did probably do a "plain view" search. Perfectly legal and usually a good move. This means they can look into and around your car without actually moving anything or entering the vehicle, i.e. it's in plain view.

5.) Opening your glove box would be pushing the line if evidence such as cocaine were found and likely would be suppressed, however I'm sure you checked out as an okay guy and he did it without even thinking about it. He wasn't searching for evidence I would bet, just placing the magazine away from the gun so that they can be gone by the time you reload it. (I'm purely speculating because police procedure does not allow for searching a glove box for evidence in your case as I read it).

6.) I doubt they were Terry Frisking the vehicle, but it is a possibility since you did present a weapon, however I seriously doubt it if everything you say is true. There simply was no reason to suspect criminal activity going on. Likely they were just visually checking things out.

I hope that helps.

 

[AJ Dual]

CCW + Scanner to many cops = "wannabe" or "strange ranger" as they sometimes call them. It's one step down from the guy who likes to pull young women over late at night with a flashing red dash light and give them a "warning", right after they got off work as a security gaurd at Pizza Hut etc.

Criminals use scanners to outwit the police too.

As a little-l Libertarian, I too chafe at the attitude of "Zee Paperz, Please"..

However, a lot of police work and dealing with a "subject" is like the rules of gunhandling. If you obey them every time, no matter how "safe" the situation seems, nothing can go wrong, and everyone goes home alive.

Murphy's law is always waiting to pounce, the one time they run across a guy with a gun and a scanner, and just assume "Ahh.. He's a normal guy just like Mr. DunedinDragon..." is the time the get shot in the back, ignore the bloody knife, rope, and ski-mask on the back seat, or fail to hear the thumping of the bound and gagged girl in the trunk etc. etc. etc.

I don't know exactly how to square this with my "benifit of the doubt" attitude my Libertarian side tells me I should feel about police treatment of individuals, and the real world.

But there it is...

 

[Chipperman]

I would make a complaint about the bus driver.

Sounds like he was trying to make trouble for you when he clearly knew you were not drunk, and had broken no laws.

His false statement to the Cops resulted in a waste of your time and the Police time, erego taxpayer money.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

You speak as if we still had a functioning Fourth Amendment. It is gone. Has been for a long time. The Supreme Court caused it to die a death of a thousand cuts. Cops can pretty much do whatever they want now.

 

[ArmedBear]

Hawkeye is right.

However, I, too, am curious to know why you have a police scanner in your car. I don't think you shouldn't; it's just not something I've found a use for. I'd rather have a two-way radio than a receiver.

I know why I have a RADAR detector. If someone is using high-tech tools to clock my speed, then I am going to use a similar tool to know that he/she is doing this. It's not so I can speed with impunity; I just like to know what's going on around me.

But do you get useful information from a scanner?

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

When you informed them of the weapon, they have the right to disarm you for the duration of the encounter. Nothing personal, officer safety issue, I've done it myself. I know you have a CHL or a RKBA, but I'm going home at the end of the day, and you were reported drunk so disarming you while giving a sobriety test only makes sense.

Wrong! The only one who has a right to disarm you is someone you have wrongly threatened somehow (or someone acting on his/her behalf). Police have the power, backed by the government they serve, to do that, yes. That's a different issue, though. Not all powers are expression of one's right to do something.

 

[orangeninja]

Hawkeye.....

That attitude will get a CHL yanked quick in Texas. Try to prevent an officer from disarming you and it will get hairy. You may feel that you have a right to keep your gun against the officer's wishes, but the law, the legislature and all of the courts disagree with you.

I suggest you read up on some criminal and police procedure and refrain from giving terrible, potentially lethal and illegal advice again. That sovereign citizen crap only goes so far in real life.

And by the way, the 4th Amendment is still very much alive and well. How many other countries do you see where the police have to jump through so many hoops to conduct business according to the law?

 

[sam59]

Semantics

This thread started out as a good common sense discussion to a police stop and then degenerates into a conspiracy laced anti-government rant. Why am I not suprised.

"That sovereign citizen crap only goes so far in real life".

Funny stuff Alduro.

 

[DunedinDragon]

Don't get me wrong here. I completely understand their need to disarm me and have ZERO problems with that, particularly under the circumstances that they were responding to a reported DUI. I don't really have any problem as far as them asking about the scanner. The only questionable parts are reaching into the car to examine the scanner (a completely legal object to have) and opening the glove compartment without my consent.

As far as what I would have done if they had asked if they could search my car? Thank God they didn't because I would have refused. That's clearly beyond the bounds of what they would have a right to do in this situation. I don't think it came to that because they could see pretty quickly I checked out and there was no probable cause...so KUDOs to them on recognizing that. On the other hand had they simply asked if they could open the glove compartment to put the magazine in there or asked if they could look at the scanner I would have most likely agreed without thinking about it.

My only desire to bring this up to the department is not to criticize the officers in any way. It's to point out some areas they may want to emphasize in terms of training and awareness regarding search or invasion of someone's property as, under different circumstances with a different person, it might have not turned out so well.

 

[Old Dog]

First, the call was initiated due to a verbal confrontation I had with a bus driver who had blocked access through a parking lot. It was not much more than some yelling,

Not trying to be overly critical here, but if it was a city bus driver, this is generally not an argument you're gonna win ... as they say, pick your battles. If you did get sucked into a shouting match with a belligerent bus-jockey, well, you probably should've expected the worst (I speak from bitter experience here). Some days one just might be better off taking a deep breath and waiting patiently until the knucklehead bus driver un-blocks your egress point ...

As far as the police response, three unit seems definite overkill (unless it's 2:00 a.m. in a bad part of town), but if they're gonna do an FST on you, disarming you is protocol (just one of the pesky rules when one obtains the CCW/CHL/CPL). No question, the officer should have asked you to open the glove box, and told you why (inexperienced or in a hurry, perhaps?) ... The questions about the scanner, totally understandable; too many criminals use 'em for their own purposes, although the MDTs detract from scanner usefulness in many areas.

As far as the 4th Amendment being completely dead, sorry, can't agree. Not completely. It's been bent backward, but hasn't quite broken yet. Still an awful lot of cases getting thrown out of courts on 4A grounds, illegal police actions and bad searches ... and I think we're seeing a growing groundswell of support in the country toward getting back to the original protections contained in the 4th (thanks to our government's high-profile, heavy-handed attempts to eliminate 4th Amendment protections, there's gonna be a severe backlash).

 

[DunedinDragon]

However, I, too, am curious to know why you have a police scanner in your car. I don't think you shouldn't; it's just not something I've found a use for. I'd rather have a two-way radio than a receiver.

Think of it as the TV show "Cops", but on radio so to speak. It's actually quite interesting and informative to listen to all the different activities going on in my local vicinity. You'd be amazed how much you can learn about police and emergency activities just having one around. The biggest challenge is learning how to use and program it to fit your needs and not be overwhelmed with all the information on the airwaves.

Come hurricane season however, it will be a HUGE advantage to have one.

 

[sam59]

Dundgon

I was not referring to you. You posted the thread with a thoughtful open mind.

 

[Johnnybgood]

Personally I would have the Bus driver

Arrested for filing a false report. Maybe a few of those and they might learn some manners.

 

[orangeninja]

There are a lot of people who listen to scanners as a hobby. As for the 3 man response. Couple of theories.

Note: this is speculation....

1.) Two cars, three cops. Could be a two man unit and a supervisor shows up on the scene. I know I show up on the scene all the time just to shoot the crap, watch them work, you know, supervise.

2.) Primary call and obligatory backup call. Some city's do this if any weapon is involved as SOP.

3.) Primary call and backup call because nothing pending in call box. Also known as shooting the sh*t....which is why a supervisor sometimes arrives to break it up. But you wouldn't see that if the supe had any tact at all.

4.) Who knows what the dispatcher for the city bus told the police. Those drivers can be cantankerous.

I've personally had a bus block an unmarked police unit and refuse to move it. I told her to move it and she said okay. Couple more minutes go by and I honk. Nothing. Finally I walked up and knocked on the door which she refused to open and gave me some lip about how I was illegally parked and that she’d move it when she was dang good and ready. I showed her my badge, she gave me a blank stare and I ordered her in not so friendly a manner to move the bus now. I know how bus drivers can be....fussy people.

As for reaching in and grabbing the scanner, perfectly acceptable IF the scanner is in plain view and it may be contraband or evidence of criminal activity. Believe it or not, but some people "tweak" their scanner to listen to cell phone calls and cordless calls....which is very illegal. My guess is you were subject to a casual stop, (if there is such a thing) and the gun was being checked out along with your warrant search....


...in short, you were an excuse for a "gaggle" (again…speculating) ....which is my word for a clump of blue uniforms doing something other than work, which may explain the 3rd Officer.

As for your rights being violated, again the only thing I see with that potential was securing your magazine, but you had a CHL and had checked out, I'm sure he was thinking "good guy" and opened the glove box casually. It wouldn't excuse finding criminal evidence, but I'm sure he didn't expect to find any.

 

[DunedinDragon]

As for reaching in and grabbing the scanner, perfectly acceptable IF the scanner is in plain view and it may be contraband or evidence of criminal activity. Believe it or not, but some people "tweak" their scanner to listen to cell phone calls and cordless calls....which is very illegal.

Again, even if it's in plain view, there would still need to be probable cause that it was being used for illegal purposes in order to enter the vehicle to grab it. Given all the facts of this situation I don't see where there would be any reasonable cause, much less probable cause to support the action. I could easily see some nut job throwing a tantrum over it and, at best, turning a simple stop into a confrontation and at worst pressing a civil rights violation case. All could be avoided by simply asking if they can take a look at it.

 

[orangeninja]

Well, I wasn't there, you were...so you'll have to make the call. I was just giving possibilities. Either way, being things such as they are, I'm not going to say if what they did is wrong or not....not enough evidence and there does seem to be some anti-cop attitudes on THR.

 

[DunedinDragon]

Unfortunately you're right as far as the anti-cop sentiments here. It's a shame because it really degrades any real valuable, reasonable discussions about such things...

 

[ArmedBear]

Where's the anti-cop sentiment in this thread?
Where's the conspiracy theory in this thread?

Just curious.

 

[Mainsail]

The first thing that struck me was, why were you yelling at the bus driver? I tend to avoid confrontation when I'm armed.

All in all though, the cops seemed OK with the way they handled it.

 

[jetmak2002]

.

I think the cops operated with restraint. The scanner was in plain view, yeah maybe they shouldn't have fondled it. Opening the glovebox was maybe wrong, but it doesn't sound like he had ill intentions. This doesn't seem like the kind of case to file a report over, the officers acted reasonably. Save your ammo for a real abuse of police power, this is just monday morning quarterbacking.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Where's the anti-cop sentiment in this thread?
Where's the conspiracy theory in this thread?

Just curious.

ArmedBear, to a certain sort of High Roader, any mention of the notion of rights, or criticism of an abuse of government or police power amounts to both cop bashing and antigovernment "conspiracy theary crap."

 

[DunedinDragon]

The first thing that struck me was, why were you yelling at the bus driver? I tend to avoid confrontation when I'm armed.

So do I, but unfortunately the bus driver decided he wanted to confront me. I was just sitting in my car waiting for them to move. He decided he wanted ME to move and started yelling. So I told him to go waddle back to his bus and leave me alone...

 

[NineseveN]

I don't see any problem with the way the cops acted as you tell it here. I say that's a pretty professional stop IMHO.