Questions for the LFI graduates in the room.

[RavenVT100]

I took Ayoob's Judicious Use of Lethal Force lecture and my wife and I are signed up for LFI-1 in NH after a few months, because I was interested in learning the shooting teachniques that he teaches. Those of you who have taken this course will hopefully be able to answer a couple of questions for me.

1. (might be a dumb question) who teaches it? Is it Ayoob (as it was with my other course) or is it one of his instructors?

2. I have to drive through New York State (but nowhere near NYC) to get to this course. I know that FOPA/McClure-Volkmer protects me when transporting unloaded firearms in the required manner, but NYS law also exempts people going to any "NRA approved training or exhibition." Does LFI-1 count as such? It'd be nice to have a layer of state protection on top of the Federal one.

Thanks, and I appreciate everyone's advice.

 

[WT]

Ayoob probably won't teach the field portion of the course. One of his instructors will probably carry out those duties. Then again, Ayoob may teach the course. How's that for a definite answer?

LFI-1 is not an NRA course.

If you drive thru NY without a NY pistol permit, you are in violation of state law. A NY trooper can arrest you for violating a state law. A high priced New York lawyer will have to get you out of the NYSP Tarreytown Barracks.

 

[RavenVT100]

I asked this question on several sites (including this one) and consulted a few Firearms Law books, and the concensus seems to be that FOPA protects people who travel from one state where they are legal into another where they are legal, even if they are going through a state where possession would otherwise be prohibited.

I then contacted NYSP Troop T, who referred me to division HQ. Division HQ confirmed that I would be okay to transport under 18 US Code 926A (FOPA). But no stops or deviations.

Now, I could drive through MA, but I was under the impression that MA is even worse, and that driving through it would be absolutely unadvisable. How else does one get to New Hampshire?

 

[WT]

What NYSP gave you contradicts NY statutes. Do you have their opinion in writing? If not, like Sam Goldwyn of MGM said, the verbal information they gave you is worth the paper its written on.

If you already have all the answers, why are you asking questions???

 

[RavenVT100]

Because like you said, "verbal" doesn't mean "in writing." I'm interested in getting as much information as I can. I'm certainly not going to assume that the NYSP officer's opinion is prima facie evidence that there won't be a problem, and as such, I was more or less hoping that other people on the East Coast who have attended LFI could give me some advice on the best way to get there in a clean and legal manner.

 

[pax]

WT ~

Federal law overrides state law in this instance. The federal law in this instance was designed to override state law.

Raven ~

It is my understanding that "no stops" means no stops, not even a potty break. Hit the rest area before you cross the border!

Mas taught both portions of LFI-1 for my class, but I took it here on the west coast so he was on the road. Don't know what he normally does back there.

pax

 

[RavenVT100]

I should clarify that the NYSP officer specifically referenced the Federal statute, and not the NY statute. He stated that I should carry a copy of the Federal statute in my trunk to avoid any confusion.

But that's beside the point. I was asking if LFI-1 would be considered an NRA-approved "training or exhibition." If I have to, I'll fly to NH from PA.

 

[Preacherman]

Mas taught both the classroom and range portions of LFI-1 when I did it in TX back in 1999. He also taught LFI-2 and -3 when I did them in NH in 2002.

As for travelling through NY and MA with firearms: I've done it, several times. The Federal law concerned trumps State law, provided that you don't stop in these states except for gas and potty breaks. Provided that your stop is very short, you should be OK. However, an overnight stop, or spending an hour at an interesting store, would be considered a "stay" rather than a "stop", and you could be found to be in contravention of State law.

 

[RavenVT100]

Thank you for the advice WT, pax, and Preacherman. Does Ayoob always teach his lecture portion (minus the videos, obviously) or does he have people qualified for that as well? Just out of curiosity.

 

[El Tejon]

During my LFI-1 class Mas did not appear the first day. He was testifying for a defendant at a civil trial in California which came out "not liable" for the defense.

A couple of people whined ("boo hoo, I want the earth and sky to rotate about ME, boo hoo hoo, I paid money, memememememe"), however, most of us understood that it could have been us (except the real jerkwads [I think Art's grandmother is O.K. with that one] who could only think of themselves).

Denny Reichard, a copper with the Rochester (Indiana) PD, did most of the lecture and showed us all the cop videos so while we did miss Mas for a day, he taught the class. Mas took over once he arrived.

While I believe LFI-1 is invaluable, it is not a "shooting" class and does not pretend to be. I think I shot 300 rounds.

 

[Trebor]

Do NOT drive through NY State with a handgun. NY state does not recognize the FOPA. Yeah, you could use it as an "affirmative defense" in court, but you'd have to get to court first. Do you really want to be the test case?

The lawyer I use for my CCW classes tells me that so far the FOPA has never been tested in court and not to rely on it. His advice is good in other matters, so I trust him on this.

Just for the record: LFI 1 is NOT a NRA class. I don't see how it would fall under the NRA exemption.

 

[RavenVT100]

In that case, do CT or MA allow transport if you have a carry permit from another state (but not your home state)?

I'm not looking to carry anything, just to transport it unloaded in a locked box in my trunk.

As always, the advice is appreciated (It's looking like flying would be the best idea at this point).

 

[BlkHawk73]

Was ogoing to attend the S&W academy in MA a few yrs ago. Asked the woman there about getting my pistol from ME to MA. She just told me to dissasemble the gun and lock one part in a case in one area of the car and the other in the trunk. keep the magazines if possible in another an UNLOADED. Keep all ammo if possible in a seperate locked conatiner. If I was to get pulled over, "No ask, no tell." Not sure how it is now, but don't imagine if it was dissassembled so much it would be a probelm. No idea about the stupid NY laws.

 

[RavenVT100]

Ok, now that I've strayed far enough from the subject matter (heh) it appears I'll be talking to a competent attorney about this in order to get a definitive answer. I'll assume for now that flying is the only suitable route. I appreciate everyone's advice about the course and driving. Thanks!

Hopefully my wife will learn some new stuff, and I'll be able to refresh a few holes in my notes and technique.

 

[TexasRifleman]

God, after hearing all that nightmarish mess just to travel a couple of miles, I think I'll just stay at home!

Good luck to ya.......

 

[RavenVT100]

As an aside. My wife would also like to know: How difficult is the "qualification" at the end?

 

[pax]

The qualification is not difficult -- she will pass it.

If you are thinking the class is mostly a refresher, you should be able to shoot a perfect score. There were ... mmmm, at least 6 out of 20 ... people who shot perfect scores in my class. (Dang, it still stings that I wasn't among them! I dropped one lousy stinking miserable shot just barely over the $@%@#$% line... *shakes head.*)

pax

 

[RavenVT100]

So in other words, it's about as difficult as a police qual?

 

[pax]

Actually, if you want to see the qual yourself, there's a copy of them at http://www.kuci.org/~dany/firearms/all_drills.html#standards. Just scroll down.

pax

 

[RavenVT100]

Cool, thank you very much.

 

[Trebor]

It is based on a police qual. I don't know if it's a copy of a specific qualification or was created from several different quals though.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

New York HAS arrested several people at airports who attempted to declare a pistol with their checked baggage while travelling in what appears to me to be a pretty blatant violation of 1986 FOPA.

Here is the NRA alert on it:

The District Attorney in Albany County and Queens 18 months ago issued an order to arrest anyone coming through the airports with a handgun in their luggage, regardless if the handgun was being transported properly by FAA regulations. The criteria is if you do not have a NY license, you are charged. So what's happening is 2 different scenarios:

1. People are flying into New York from other states, most but not all of whom have carry permits from their home states, and are carrying a pistol. When they go to fly home, they declare the gun, which has always been unloaded and locked up properly in their checked luggage, but if they cannot produce a NY license, they are promptly charged with illegal weapon possession, and their gun confiscated forever. (The Albany airport sheriff has been doing it as a lower class misdemeanor, the LaGuardia cases were charged as a felony.) As their home state permit is not reciprocal, and they were in NY state for an amount of time carrying a handgun, this group is screwed.

2. People are DRIVING to the airport from another state where the NY airport is their closest one to fly out of, and are getting popped right off the bat an hour or two from their home. In these cases, we are going to war for them being covered by FOPA, even the Sheriff's office and TSA in Albany have argued over that with the DA, but he won't budge. He did, however, blink on the two cases from Albany, with the people getting a walk. Didn't get their guns back, though, either time.

Bottom line, UNLESS you are in possession of a VALID New York pistol license, DO NOT bring a handgun in your luggage to the airport, you will be charged.

This is not being done in any other state in the country except at Logan international in Boston, (same thing there) but even at O'Hare in Illinois, if you come in from another state and meet FAA guidelines, they feel you are covered by FOPA and off you go a happy camper.

It might not apply to you driving through New York; but I would strive to get something in writing and plan for a worse case scenario if you do get stopped. Just think of all the crimes that will be stopped by harassing lawful citizens like you attempting to comply with the law though

 

[RavenVT100]

I'm not an attorney, so I cannot rightly say whether FOPA would apply in that scenario. However it may not due to the fact that if you are carrying a cased firearm, you are technically in "posession" of it under state law due to the fact that FOPA says the firearms must be secured in the trunk of your vehicle (or baggage compartment of an airplane(?)) upon entering the state and at all times during the uninterrupted journey through. It may very well be that a strictly construed FOPA might apply to, say, a plane flying over the state of New York or a car driving through it, but not to a person who makes a stop at an airport and then carries the case in hand to the terminal to declare it. It may be how these DA's are interpreting it.

I also get the distinct impression that 18 USA 926A was written specifically with automobile transport in mind. It would love to see the NRA go up against the DA's in Albany and establish a precedent saying that FOPA applies to these people, but I won't hold my breath. NYS is damn strict from what everyone here has been saying.

However, just the same. Not saying I agree in any way with what they're doing.

 

[gigmike]

Isn't it true that if you're flying to let's say, Maine and your plane gets diverted into LaGuardia or JFK for weather or equipment malfunction that they'll go after you for a legally declared handgun?

 

[RavenVT100]

(OT) I honestly have no idea. If that happens, your checked weapons are still on board the plane and in $your_airline's posession. They'll either stay on the plane or be moved onto another plane, by someone other than yourself.

If my reading comprehension serves, case (1) and case (2) as stated above involved people who were physically in posession of the guns while at the airport. Meaning, they were going to the airport and physically carrying the luggage to be checked.

Would I try scheduling a connecting flight that involved a stop at LaGuardia if I had handguns checked in my luggage? Definitely not.