questions on 38 special +P

[goh412]

I've been reloading for a few months but only 45 Colt so far. I'm looking to reload 38 Special for my Henry lever gun. Henry recommends a minimum 158 grain bullet. I own a pound of Win244 powder.

Looking at the Hodgdon website the reloading data says the max is 4 grains of 244 but there is no minimum. I'm concerned to start off at max load right off the bat. Most reloading data has a high and low. Hodgdon also designates a 158 grain bullets as 38 Special +P. Anything else to know when loading +P 38s?

Thanks for any help offered.

 

[eddiememphis]

+P means more powder. Use the minimums for standard .38 special.

My Hodgdon 2021 lists loads from 77gr to 170gr bullets, although not all with 244.

 

[1KPerDay]

General practice when no start charge is given is to reduce the max charge by 10%.

 

[goh412]

+P means more powder. Use the minimums for standard .38 special.

My Hodgdon 2021 lists loads from 77gr to 170gr bullets, although not all with 244.

Thank you

 

[goh412]

General practice when no start charge is given is to reduce the max charge by 10%.

When I first looked I thought I didn't see data for standard 38 special for a 158 grain bullet, only 38 special +P. Just double checked and it is there for standard 38 and the min in 3.6 grains of Win244,10% lower as you said.

Thanks for your help.

 

[P Flados]

Doing your initial loading at book max for 38 Sp in a 357 Mag gun will not be unsafe in any way.

And really, 38 Sp and 38 Sp +P "load workups" generally do not mean much. There is really no observable attribute that will tell an average reloader that his ammo is over the SAAMI limit for these rounds. You biggest assurance of being under the limit is to use exactly the components listed and the COAL and charge given. If you are substituting a different bullet, be aware that seating it deeper than called for will usually increase the resultant pressure.

Some folks are willing to routinely load 38 Sp brass at higher than SAAMI limits for use in a 357. I am not one of them. I will admit that I have done some heavy bullet "testing" in a Henry with 38 Sp instead of 357 brass. I only did this as I was confident my gun was strong enough and all such ammo was fired or disassembled shortly after being loaded. After I found something that my gun liked, I trimmed some 357 brass to 38 SP length for routine use of this "long bullet" load.

Over the years I have learned that is is just too easy to loose track of what was in a given batch of ammo and/or any limitations on what guns it was loaded for. Not to mention the risk of "dropped ammo" at a gun range. This is just a hobby, I want no part in doing something stupid that ends up hurting myself or others and I want no part in damaging any gun.

 

[Targa]

Deleted

 

[goh412]

Doing your initial loading at book max for 38 Sp in a 357 Mag gun will not be unsafe in any way.

And really, 38 Sp and 38 Sp +P "load workups" generally do not mean much. There is really no observable attribute that will tell an average reloader that his ammo is over the SAAMI limit for these rounds. You biggest assurance of being under the limit is to use exactly the components listed and the COAL and charge given. If you are substituting a different bullet, be aware that seating it deeper than called for will usually increase the resultant pressure.

Some folks are willing to routinely load 38 Sp brass at higher than SAAMI limits for use in a 357. I am not one of them. I will admit that I have done some heavy bullet "testing" in a Henry with 38 Sp instead of 357 brass. I only did this as I was confident my gun was strong enough and all such ammo was fired or disassembled shortly after being loaded. After I found something that my gun liked, I trimmed some 357 brass to 38 SP length for routine use of this "long bullet" load.

Over the years I have learned that is is just too easy to loose track of what was in a given batch of ammo and/or any limitations on what guns it was loaded for. Not to mention the risk of "dropped ammo" at a gun range. This is just a hobby, I want no part in doing something stupid that ends up hurting myself or others and I want no part in damaging any gun.

Thanks for all the info you provided here.
If you wouldn't mind giving your thoughts on two more questions.
I would never exceed max powder recommendations but can seating that 158 grain bullet (if I am adhereing to COAL parameters) cause any problems? I guess I'm asking because the bullet just looks pretty long compared to the 38 special case.
Also I'm using Lead Round Nose Flat Point bullets. So often you find load data that is specific to bullet shape and your specific bullet data can't be found. How important is bullet shape as long as the grain amount is the same? And the data is for a lead bullet which I'm using.

Thank you

 

[DMW1116]

What specific bullet are you using? Does it have a crimping groove? I'd start with regular 38 Special data and go from there. Hodgden lists a range of 3.6 to 4.0 grains for a 158 grain cast semi-wadcutter in 38 Special. That's a pretty narrow range with your powder.

When I load full power 357, the 158 grain cast bullet I use looks like it will compress the powder. That's a pretty big bullet and a case nearly full of powder. I seat to the crimp groove for a similar bullet shape. At the crimp groove, my bullets are actually just a bit longer than the COAL, but they shoot no problem.

 

[goh412]

What specific bullet are you using? Does it have a crimping groove? I'd start with regular 38 Special data and go from there. Hodgden lists a range of 3.6 to 4.0 grains for a 158 grain cast semi-wadcutter in 38 Special. That's a pretty narrow range with your powder.

When I load full power 357, the 158 grain cast bullet I use looks like it will compress the powder. That's a pretty big bullet and a case nearly full of powder. I seat to the crimp groove for a similar bullet shape. At the crimp groove, my bullets are actually just a bit longer than the COAL, but they shoot no problem.

Thanks for your response. I'm using 158 gr polymere coated Lead RNFP bullets from T&B Bullets. I believe they have 2 crimping grooves.

 

[DMW1116]

Ok. Those are similar to the 125 grain bullets I use from Gallant Bullets (available locally at Sportsmans Warehouse). One of those grooves is a lube groove. Since they're polymer coated, you don't need lube in that groove.


I've had good luck with polymer coated cast bullets in 9mm, 38 Special, 357 Magnum, and 30-30. For 9mm I typically use NLG bullet designs (no lube groove). 9mm doesn't have a crimp groove, so they look like little plastic round nose bullets (see photo above). Some companies make NLG designs for 38/357 too. I don't know if it makes a difference, but I've used both in 357 Magnum. With the right load, both would shoot under 1.5" at 25 yards from my Blackhawk, which is currently my most fired centerfire handgun.

Rifles are different for those pistol cartridges. I don't know how much velocity you'll gain, but sometimes it can push them too fast and cause leading. I had that happen in 30-30. 0 Stars - do not recommend. You'll know when you push a patch through the barrel and it comes out looking like it's covered in black glitter.

 

[P Flados]

I was disappointed when I went to the Hodgdon site. This is an example where they use a generic bullet without specifying a bullet length.

Without bullet length info it is impossible to determine seating depth. Increasing seating depth will typically increase pressure. If this was 9mm, it would matter more (38 SP has more free space making it less sensitive), but I still do not like providing load data with a mystery bullet.

I have info on 3 cast 158 SWCs (NOE, Lee and Lyman). I estimate that a generic cast 158 SWC is going to be between 0.650" and 0.680" long. This means that the Hodgdon 1.475" COAL was most likely giving a seating depth of at least 0.320" in a 38 SP.

I looked at the T&B photo and your bullet looks a good bit shorter. I will make a wild guess at 0.610" (you should measure the actual length). If my guess is correct, you would get an acceptable seating depth with an COAL that is 0.650 - 0.610 = 0.040" less than what Hodgdon used. And again 38 SP is less sensitive than many cartridges. I used Quickload to estimate that you would have to increase seating depth by around 0.035" to go from a regular 38 SP pressure level to a 38 SP +P pressure level.

And FYI, my son's Henry shoots good with 110 gr and 120 gr cast bullets in 38 Sp ammo. For full power 357s, it seemed to like my custom 180 gr cast better than my Lee 158s.

 

[Rule3]

I've been reloading for a few months but only 45 Colt so far. I'm looking to reload 38 Special for my Henry lever gun. Henry recommends a minimum 158 grain bullet. I own a pound of Win244 powder.

Looking at the Hodgdon website the reloading data says the max is 4 grains of 244 but there is no minimum. I'm concerned to start off at max load right off the bat. Most reloading data has a high and low. Hodgdon also designates a 158 grain bullets as 38 Special +P. Anything else to know when loading +P 38s?

Thanks for any help offered.

All the +P data is, is the Max load of the non +P data.

If you reduce it, it is no longer +P

If using the bullet, powder and COL as specified, it is safe to use. There are large margins built in.

If you want the min, then look at the regular 38 special data

 

[reddog81]

Is the gun chambered in .357 Mag? A max .38 Special +P load will still be less pressure than a starting .357 load. I wouldn't worry about using a max load right off the bat if it's going into a .357.

This might be an issue if you have 120 year old .38 Special guns that the rounds could end up in so take appropriate measures to not use the loads in weak guns.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I've been reloading for a few months but only 45 Colt so far. I'm looking to reload 38 Special for my Henry lever gun. Henry recommends a minimum 158 grain bullet. I own a pound of Win244 powder.

Looking at the Hodgdon website the reloading data says the max is 4 grains of 244 but there is no minimum. I'm concerned to start off at max load right off the bat. Most reloading data has a high and low. Hodgdon also designates a 158 grain bullets as 38 Special +P. Anything else to know when loading +P 38s?

Thanks for any help offered.

The beginning of ALL load work up is this: what’s the use case?

What do you want the bullet to do, at what distance, and for what goal? Once you know the answers to those questions, THEN start looking at bullet weights, profiles, materials, and velocities. Paper yields to bullets quite easily. There’s no need to go over 650fps at 25yds to punch a hole in a target.

Decide your use case then look at what’s appropriate for achieving that goal. Just my 2-cents and worth every penny.

 

[.308 Norma]

Hodgdon also designates a 158 grain bullets as 38 Special +P. Anything else to know when loading +P 38s?

I'm not quite following you there. The Hodgdon manual (#27) I have sitting in front of me lists 38 Special +P loads using bullets weighing from 110grs all the way up to 200grs. It also lists at least 25 different 38 Special loads using 158gr bullets that are not "+P" loads.

 

[mdi]

General practice when no start charge is given is to reduce the max charge by 10%.

Yep. When only one load is given, it is usually max. Reduce max. by 10% for a safe starting load. With components I'm familiar with and starting a new workup, I sometimes just start 10% below max ...

"Reloading 101"; Never start a load workup at maximum listed charges.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

+P means more powder. Use the minimums for standard .38 special.

My Hodgdon 2021 lists loads from 77gr to 170gr bullets, although not all with 244.

+P does not mean "more powder." The +P designation means "more Pressure."

All the +P data is, is the Max load of the non +P data.

If you reduce it, it is no longer +P

If using the bullet, powder and COL as specified, it is safe to use. There are large margins built in.

If you want the min, then look at the regular 38 special data

Absolutely correct, if you reduce the charge it will no longer be a +P load.

 

[goh412]

I'm not quite following you there. The Hodgdon manual (#27) I have sitting in front of me lists 38 Special +P loads using bullets weighing from 110grs all the way up to 200grs. It also lists at least 25 different 38 Special loads using 158gr bullets that are not "+P" loads.

Yes I did see 38 Special loads for larger grain bullets that weren't +P. Corrected this in my second or third post. On the Hodgdon site I thought I had scrolled all the way down.
Thanks for letting me know.

 

[AJC1]

+P does not mean "more powder." The +P designation .

It definitely means more and that debate is nonsensical as it takes more powder of the same to get more pressure.... it's definitely more. In 38 loadings in 357 chambers +p right off the bat at 20kpsi is basically insignificant. The same cannot be said of most others except 38 super which all loads say +p

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Yes I did see 38 Special loads for larger grain bullets that weren't +P. Corrected this in my second or third post. On the Hodgdon site I thought I had scrolled all the way down.
Thanks for letting me know.

One of the questions you have to ask yourself is, how are you going to know what the actual chamber pressure is? You can kneel before the false god of simulation software or you can trust the word of internet experts. The other alternative is to buy the strain gauges and lab equipment necessary to test your product. The manuals and publications can only tell you how their tests turned out, which may or may not be the same as your guns. That’s why the publishers build in a safety margin.

Me personally, I recommend you stay inside the safety margins and be aware of the risks and benefits of that approach.

 

[racepres]

Doing your initial loading at book max for 38 Sp in a 357 Mag gun will not be unsafe in any way.

And really, 38 Sp and 38 Sp +P "load workups" generally do not mean much. There is really no observable attribute that will tell an average reloader that his ammo is over the SAAMI limit for these rounds. You biggest assurance of being under the limit is to use exactly the components listed and the COAL and charge given. If you are substituting a different bullet, be aware that seating it deeper than called for will usually increase the resultant pressure.

Some folks are willing to routinely load 38 Sp brass at higher than SAAMI limits for use in a 357. I am not one of them. I will admit that I have done some heavy bullet "testing" in a Henry with 38 Sp instead of 357 brass. I only did this as I was confident my gun was strong enough and all such ammo was fired or disassembled shortly after being loaded. After I found something that my gun liked, I trimmed some 357 brass to 38 SP length for routine use of this "long bullet" load.

Over the years I have learned that is is just too easy to loose track of what was in a given batch of ammo and/or any limitations on what guns it was loaded for. Not to mention the risk of "dropped ammo" at a gun range. This is just a hobby, I want no part in doing something stupid that ends up hurting myself or others and I want no part in damaging any gun.

Excellent
I continue to search for a more Accurate 38Spl load than the tried and true 2.8 gr of Bullseye, under a 148 gr. Wadcutter (I prefer a Button Nose, thanks) In over 40 years..Nothing comes close.. But, I do Load 38/44's for one 357 that I own, and of course 357 Mags.. As for the 38's??? Very difficult for me to Shoot stuff that won't Compete!!! But, I still try... I have one Gun/load that is promising with 158 SWC, and Trail Boss... may actually improve on the Red Dot loading currently loading.... so...I still try...Obviously.. Just No +P.. Never know which 38 Revolver I'm gonna put them into!!!! If the headstamp says +P In my room...it is 38/44

 

[AJC1]

Excellent
I continue to search for a more Accurate 38Spl load than the tried and true 2.8 gr of Bullseye, under a 148 gr. Wadcutter (I prefer a Button Nose, thanks) In over 40 years..Nothing comes close.. But, I do Load 38/44's for one 357 that I own, and of course 357 Mags.. As for the 38's??? Very difficult for me to Shoot stuff that won't Compete!!! But, I still try... I have one Gun/load that is promising with 158 SWC, and Trail Boss... may actually improve on the Red Dot loading currently loading.... so...I still try...Obviously.. Just No +P.. Never know which 38 Revolver I'm gonna put them into!!!! If the headstamp says +P In my room...it is 38/44

My red dot loads were best at max and were less accurate at +p but your experience may differ... mine were cast 158 ish at 3.4

 

[Soonerpesek]

It definitely means more and that debate is nonsensical as it takes more powder of the same to get more pressure..

I’m not disagreeing, but wouldn’t a shorter OAL with the same powder charge create more pressure without additional powder…?

 

[AJC1]

I’m not disagreeing, but wouldn’t a shorter OAL with the same powder charge create more pressure without additional powder…?

In 38 that's not a major change but in 9mm that could get ugly fast. So I'll just submit its case depdant