questions on 38 special +P

[DMW1116]

I discovered wadcutters about 18 months ago and I’m only 47. They’re the reason I test handgun loads for accuracy. I just didn’t know what was possible until I saw them.

I don’t have experience with the OPs bullet shape in 158 grain weight, but my Blackhawk seems to prefer minimum charges for accuracy. W231, CFE Pistol, and Silhouette all shot best with minimum charges pushing the lighter 125 grain RNFP.

 

[Bcwitt]

In a 38s? As long as the cylender can close & open, your good.

 

[goh412]

I was disappointed when I went to the Hodgdon site. This is an example where they use a generic bullet without specifying a bullet length.

Without bullet length info it is impossible to determine seating depth. Increasing seating depth will typically increase pressure. If this was 9mm, it would matter more (38 SP has more free space making it less sensitive), but I still do not like providing load data with a mystery bullet.

I have info on 3 cast 158 SWCs (NOE, Lee and Lyman). I estimate that a generic cast 158 SWC is going to be between 0.650" and 0.680" long. This means that the Hodgdon 1.475" COAL was most likely giving a seating depth of at least 0.320" in a 38 SP.

I looked at the T&B photo and your bullet looks a good bit shorter. I will make a wild guess at 0.610" (you should measure the actual length). If my guess is correct, you would get an acceptable seating depth with an COAL that is 0.650 - 0.610 = 0.040" less than what Hodgdon used. And again 38 SP is less sensitive than many cartridges. I used Quickload to estimate that you would have to increase seating depth by around 0.035" to go from a regular 38 SP pressure level to a 38 SP +P pressure level.

And FYI, my son's Henry shoots good with 110 gr and 120 gr cast bullets in 38 Sp ammo. For full power 357s, it seemed to like my custom 180 gr cast better than my Lee 158s.

Thanks for your detailed info.
I measured the 158 gr. T&B bullet and it is actually .650". This being said the COAL at 1.475" works? At Hodgdon suggested powder load minimum to start out, of course. thanks again!

 

[wcwhitey]

https://hodgdonreloading.com/winchester/winchester-winclean-244

Here is your data for a 158 LSWC. I use 4.0 and it’s a nice load with the MBC coated 158 SWC. Clean, accurate and not weak but not +P.

BTW when they state MEI bullet on the website it is a Meister Bullet. The LSWC they list is a standard commercial 158 SWC made by many companies. I wouldn’t over think it. Work up from the starting load and see what works in your guns. Have fun.

 

[goh412]

https://hodgdonreloading.com/winchester/winchester-winclean-244

Here is your data for a 158 LSWC. I use 4.0 and it’s a nice load with the MBC coated 158 SWC. Clean, accurate and not weak but not +P.

BTW when they state MEI bullet on the website it is a Meister Bullet. The LSWC they list is a standard commercial 158 SWC made by many companies. I wouldn’t over think it. Work up from the starting load and see what works in your guns. Have fun.

Thanks wcwhitey
Being new to all this the absence of load data for particular bullet types even if of the same grain weight can be confusing. Working up from the starting load as you and others have suggested is what I'll do. Appreciate the help.

 

[wcwhitey]

Thanks wcwhitey
Being new to all this the absence of load data for particular bullet types even if of the same grain weight can be confusing. Working up from the starting load as you and others have suggested is what I'll do. Appreciate the help.

Show a pic of the bullet and I can guide your further if you want. The 4.0 load is not a weak one like I mentioned. 3.6 is mild, 4.0 is a good 850 fps standard pressure loading.

 

[goh412]

Show a pic of the bullet and I can guide your further if you want. The 4.0 load is not a weak one like I mentioned. 3.6 is mild, 4.0 is a good 850 fps standard pressure loading.

Here is the bullet, length is .65".
Any guess on my FPS using 3.6? Shooting from a Henry lever w/16.5" barrel.
Bullet hardness is about a 16 from manufacturer. Curious if too hard for pressure levels I will have, could lead my barrel. I know I have so many questions..thanks again

 

[wcwhitey]

View attachment 1144486

Yea that fine for that loading data, work up from the 3.6 grains and see what your guns like the best. Just make sure you crimp in the crimp grove not the driving band.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You're asking about COAL. The OAL listed in the load data isn't a written in stone. It is not part of a recipe, it is only reporting what the OAL was for that exact bullet, in that brass, trimmed to the length they trimmed to. Unless you have the same exact components and trim to the same length the OAL in the data is meaningless.

Most bullets meant for revolver ammo have a factory supplied crimp groove. That is where you should crimp to. Use a roll crimp into the center of the manufacturers supplied crimp groove. That is correct for that bullet.

A few hundredths of an inch either way will effect nothing unless the cartridge is to long to fit in the cylinder without locking up the revolver.

 

[goh412]

You're asking about COAL. The OAL listed in the load data isn't a written in stone. It is not part of a recipe, it is only reporting what the OAL was for that exact bullet, in that brass, trimmed to the length they trimmed to. Unless you have the same exact components and trim to the same length the OAL in the data is meaningless.

Most bullets meant for revolver ammo have a factory supplied crimp groove. That is where you should crimp to. Use a roll crimp into the center of the manufacturers supplied crimp groove. That is correct for that bullet.

A few hundredths of an inch either way will effect nothing unless the cartridge is to long to fit in the cylinder without locking up the revolver.

thank you!

 

[goh412]

You're asking about COAL. The OAL listed in the load data isn't a written in stone. It is not part of a recipe, it is only reporting what the OAL was for that exact bullet, in that brass, trimmed to the length they trimmed to. Unless you have the same exact components and trim to the same length the OAL in the data is meaningless.

Most bullets meant for revolver ammo have a factory supplied crimp groove. That is where you should crimp to. Use a roll crimp into the center of the manufacturers supplied crimp groove. That is correct for that bullet.

A few hundredths of an inch either way will effect nothing unless the cartridge is to long to fit in the cylinder without locking up the revolver.

understood and makes sense. Factory ammo I have has different lengths. thank you

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm glad to be of assistance, be safe and have fun...

 

[TacticalJanitor]

Good thread. I also started reloading .38 in the last two weeks...and am bumbling through it.

Lots of good info for folks like me and the OP!

 

[Walkalong]

Here’s a bullet similar in shape to the one in post #57, seated to roll crimp into the crimp groove, whatever OAL that is is correct for that bullet in my .38 Spl brass trimmed to 1.140. I forget the OAL, would have to look it up, but that’s not important, although I do log it, and it can be handy for comparisons.

 

[goh412]

Here’s a bullet similar in shape to the one in post #57, seated to roll crimp into the crimp groove, whatever OAL that is is correct for that bullet in my .38 Spl brass trimmed to 1.140. I forget the OAL, would have to look it up, but that’s not important, although I do log it, and it can be handy for comparisons.

View attachment 1144603

Thanks for posting, really helpful. Great to see final product with a similar bullet.

 

[fxvr5]

I may beg to differ with a full wadcutter in a 38 Special case......

The OP did not mention wadcutters, tho..................

Pressure and seating depth with a wadcutter . . .

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohland/Cast_Bullet/Vault/Pressures_Seating_Charging.jpg

 

[goh412]

Today I shot a dozen 38 specials I loaded at my local indoor range. As discussed I went with 3.6 grains of WIN244 under the 158 grain LRNFP bullet. OAL was between 1.45-1.47". Pretty firm roll crimp. It is safe to say the paper targets were holed sufficiently. Was looking for a plinking load and I have it. I must admit shooting rounds you've loaded yourself is very satisfying.
Thanks for everyone's help!

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Today I shot a dozen 38 specials I loaded at my local indoor range. As discussed I went with 3.6 grains of WIN244 under the 158 grain LRNFP bullet. OAL was between 1.45-1.47". Pretty firm roll crimp. It is safe to say the paper targets were holed sufficiently. Was looking for a plinking load and I have it. I must admit shooting rounds you've loaded yourself is very satisfying.
Thanks for everyone's help!

Excellent! That’s great to know. Next time it will be easier to develop a new load. Have fun and be safe!

 

[buck460XVR]

In the case of self-ejectors, my solution has been to leave them lay. My way of tipping the range staff or paying it forward to the younger brass chickens scrounging around the range. I got plenty, know where to get more if needed.

....ain't no "Range Staff" to tip at my personal range, nor at the local Sportsman's Club range I shoot at occasionally. Nor any or "younger brass chickens" scrounging around at the personal range(at least there better not be!). Was a time not long ago that brass was the most expensive component to reload. Not so much any more, but I still treasure my brass. With the prices of other components sky-rocking and getting hard to find, at least I don't worry about having enough brass.

 

[wcwhitey]

Thanks for posting, really helpful. Great to see final product with a similar bullet.

@Walkalong ’s bullet is not the same as yours! His has no driving band like you and only a crimp grove. On your bullet the lower grove is for crimping and the upper band is like that of a semi Wadcutter. Seating your bullet over the driving band will seat your bullet too low and raise pressures.

 

[goh412]

@Walkalong ’s bullet is not the same as yours! His has no driving band like you and only a crimp grove. On your bullet the lower grove is for crimping and the upper band is like that of a semi Wadcutter. Seating your bullet over the driving band will seat your bullet too low and raise pressures.

Thanks and will make sure I'm in crimp groove.

 

[Walkalong]

@Walkalong ’s bullet is not the same as yours! His has no driving band like you and only a crimp grove. On your bullet the lower grove is for crimping and the upper band is like that of a semi Wadcutter. Seating your bullet over the driving band will seat your bullet too low and raise pressures.

An excellent point that I failed to mention.

 

[Walkalong]

Here's a pic that shows the bullet sitting partially seated in a .38 Spl case,
and fully seated/crimped into a .357 Mag case, which shows the crimp groove well.


The OP's bullet. Lowest "groove" is the unused lube groove.

 

[goh412]

Here's a pic that shows the bullet sitting partially seated in a .38 Spl case,
and fully seated/crimped into a .357 Mag case, which shows the crimp groove well.
View attachment 1144923

The OP's bullet. Lowest "groove" is the unused lube groove.
View attachment 1144925

Thanks for posting these pics. Makes it very clear. At 1.45" OAL I'm right on the crimp groove.

 

[goh412]

Thanks for posting these pics. Makes it very clear. At 1.45" OAL I'm right on the crimp groove.

probably about 1.40” OAL, am I properly on the groove?