I was watching a Western on tv last night (Red River), and it got me to thinking about Western gunfights. Were gunfights generally fast draw- shoot from the hip as portrayed in movies, or was point-aim-shoot the method really most used? When did rifling become common, and did that effect the styles of gunfighting? I assume alot of people just shot their enemies in the back or at night, rather than risk a gunfight. So how did Western gunfights really go down?
questions on the Western gunfight
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Roadkill Coyote
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May I recommend Great gunfighters of the Kansas cowtowns by Miller and Snell. I can't find where I put my copy, but it uses contemporary newspaper accounts extensively, and is a very informative book. In one of many incidents recounted the "gunfighter" in question met his match while strolling down a dark sidewalk. He announced "I am the cock-of-the-walk of Caldwell Kansas" just before the the guys hiding in the alley and on a nearby roof opened fire without warning. At least one of his assailants was using a shotgun.
Edited to add: Looks like its out of print, but is available used. Barnes and Noble
Edited to add: Looks like its out of print, but is available used. Barnes and Noble
“Roadkill†is generally right. Back in the early 1980’s I had the pleasure of interviewing one of two living Arizona Territorial Rangers. He was in his 90’s and very fragile (in fact he passed away a few months later) but his mind was sharp as a tack. In the ten minutes or so that I had with him I learned more truth about “western gunfights†then I’d ever known before.
As for fast drawing, he said no. “We didn’t have all of those trick holsters (he called them “scabbardsâ€) and guns that they use in the movies. Our Capt. told us to approach any bad man with our six-gun out, and better yet, with a rifle - because a good officer’s life was worth a lot more then any bad man’s.â€
Concerning the word “quick.†When they said that a “man was quick†they weren’t referring to the speed of his draw, but rather that he no reservations against killing and would be quick to shoot. One was not to take any chances when dealing with such a person.
In Tombstone, one Billy Claiborne (sp?) got drunk in the Oriental Saloon and picked a fight with the bartender, “Buckskin†Frank Leslie. He then went outside, got a Winchester, and hid behind a wagon while waiting for Frank to come out. Someone went in and told Frank that Billy was waiting for him. The bartender got his revolver and then went out a side door and eased his way to the corner. Sure enough, there was “Kid†Claiborne watching the wrong mouse hole. Leslie called out, “Billy!†and shot first before Billy woke up and got turned around. Leslie was charged, but acquitted.
As for fast drawing, he said no. “We didn’t have all of those trick holsters (he called them “scabbardsâ€) and guns that they use in the movies. Our Capt. told us to approach any bad man with our six-gun out, and better yet, with a rifle - because a good officer’s life was worth a lot more then any bad man’s.â€
Concerning the word “quick.†When they said that a “man was quick†they weren’t referring to the speed of his draw, but rather that he no reservations against killing and would be quick to shoot. One was not to take any chances when dealing with such a person.
In Tombstone, one Billy Claiborne (sp?) got drunk in the Oriental Saloon and picked a fight with the bartender, “Buckskin†Frank Leslie. He then went outside, got a Winchester, and hid behind a wagon while waiting for Frank to come out. Someone went in and told Frank that Billy was waiting for him. The bartender got his revolver and then went out a side door and eased his way to the corner. Sure enough, there was “Kid†Claiborne watching the wrong mouse hole. Leslie called out, “Billy!†and shot first before Billy woke up and got turned around. Leslie was charged, but acquitted.
Quoted from "A Rifleman Went to War" H.W. McBride
Pistol in War
...is seldomly used used beyond fifteen or twenty feet. Most of the men killed with the one-hand gun, including all the more-or-less bad men in the early days of the West have "got their needin's" at these shorter distances--mostly shorter than that. The average old-time bar-rooms were pretty small, and what shooting was done was generally between men spaced the width of a poker table apart. The outside shooting--and I have this from no less authorities than Bat Masterson, Jim Lee and Schwin Box--was not so very effective. They have told me numerable tales of how this one and that one emptied their guns, reloaded and emptied them again at adversaries who were doing the same thing, within less than one hundred feet and with scant damage to either side.
Pistol in War
...is seldomly used used beyond fifteen or twenty feet. Most of the men killed with the one-hand gun, including all the more-or-less bad men in the early days of the West have "got their needin's" at these shorter distances--mostly shorter than that. The average old-time bar-rooms were pretty small, and what shooting was done was generally between men spaced the width of a poker table apart. The outside shooting--and I have this from no less authorities than Bat Masterson, Jim Lee and Schwin Box--was not so very effective. They have told me numerable tales of how this one and that one emptied their guns, reloaded and emptied them again at adversaries who were doing the same thing, within less than one hundred feet and with scant damage to either side.
BluesBear
member
Rifiling wasn't uncommon during the American Revolution.
Dueling pistols were smoothbored for purposes of Honor & Tradition.
By the early 1800s practically all rifles and handguns were rifled.
semf
member
Somebody here may know more of the details, But in one fight ,involving Luke Short, Luke won the fight because the other guy's gun got caught in Luke's watch chain. That should tell you how close the action was.
I don't think the old west gunfights were much different than some of today's. I saw ,on one of the reality cop shows, a video of a bank robbery involving an off duty cop. Basically when it all turned to poop the cop was kinda running around the BG at a distance of about a foot. Each one trying to get a shot at the other.
I don't think the old west gunfights were much different than some of today's. I saw ,on one of the reality cop shows, a video of a bank robbery involving an off duty cop. Basically when it all turned to poop the cop was kinda running around the BG at a distance of about a foot. Each one trying to get a shot at the other.
Roadkill Coyote
Member
When you read these accounts, if you put hollywood's influence aside, what you generally find is something similar to any number of modern gang related shootings today. Somebody dissed somebody, everybodys been drinking, yelling and insults, physical confrontations, peoples friends jump in, some moron pulls out a gun without warning, and if everybody survives they all start planning to ambush each other some dark night.
I dont' have a good detailed description of the 1881 Short-Courtright gunfight in Fort Worth, in which the watch chain was supposed to have played a role handy. But, by accounts Luke Short was not the guy to get into what we would call a CQB situation with. Apparently the shot that Short killed Charlie Storms with, in a previous incident , was fired with the muzzle up against Storms' chest.
I dont' have a good detailed description of the 1881 Short-Courtright gunfight in Fort Worth, in which the watch chain was supposed to have played a role handy. But, by accounts Luke Short was not the guy to get into what we would call a CQB situation with. Apparently the shot that Short killed Charlie Storms with, in a previous incident , was fired with the muzzle up against Storms' chest.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Other accounts of "gunfights" have stated that one guy would already have his gun out and walk up behind his target. He'd call the target by name; the guy would turn--and get shot in the front. "Fair fight?"
When "Uncle" Billy Selman shot John Wesley Hardin, he claimed that Hardin saw him, looking in the mirror of the bar. Therefore, Selman hadn't shot without Hardin's knowing of the danger.
As near as I can tell, by the time guys were actually working out "quick-draw" rigs, the Old West was becoming more settled and tamed. Few quick-draw rigs were used, and only for a short period of time. And I really doubt there were any "statistically significant" (
) face-to-face marches down the middle of a town's street for a Hollywood movie style of gunfight.
Art
When "Uncle" Billy Selman shot John Wesley Hardin, he claimed that Hardin saw him, looking in the mirror of the bar. Therefore, Selman hadn't shot without Hardin's knowing of the danger.
As near as I can tell, by the time guys were actually working out "quick-draw" rigs, the Old West was becoming more settled and tamed. Few quick-draw rigs were used, and only for a short period of time. And I really doubt there were any "statistically significant" (
) face-to-face marches down the middle of a town's street for a Hollywood movie style of gunfight.Art
Keith
Member
There's a book called "Triggernometry" by one Eugene Cunningham, written in 1934 that really tells the story. This book is has been reprinted a number of times and you should be able to find it on Barnes & Noble. My copy is a 1996 Banes & Noble reprint.
The author attempts to separate the myth from the reality and does a pretty good job, I think. In 1934 there were still plenty of witnesses alive to tell the stories. And those first-person accounts are VERY different from the dime novel and Hollywood versions.
Most of these first-person accounts sound just like the shootings we read in todays newspapers. Two liquored-up yahoo's exchange words over a card game, a whore, a dog, a cow or somebodies mama, and one of them pulls a gun and shoots t'other - sometimes on the spot, sometimes later on the street. Sometimes the second one has time to pull a gun and shoot back... sometimes not.
They are mostly awful shots which if you think about it makes sense, since ammo was (relatively) far more expensive in 1880's dollars than in todays dollars. People didn't practice much. And most of these guys are drunk when the shooting occurs.
And most of the victims don't die on the spot. They die a few days later from infection, internal bleeding, etc.
A few of these gunmen (the author claims the term "gunfighter" didn't come around until after 1900) were actual killing machines. The best example is Tom Horn, and it's perhaps noteworthy that only one actual killing was ever attributed to him - the one he was hanged for. Horn was up for hire to stockmen and others, and enemies of his employers simply disappeared or were found dead, usually from rifle bullets and far from any witnesses. He didn't stagger around town with an oversized hat twirling his guns; he was pretty much invisible. People died or disappeared, and he collected his money and left. Sounds more like a mafia hitman than a cowboy, doesn't he?
Keith
The author attempts to separate the myth from the reality and does a pretty good job, I think. In 1934 there were still plenty of witnesses alive to tell the stories. And those first-person accounts are VERY different from the dime novel and Hollywood versions.
Most of these first-person accounts sound just like the shootings we read in todays newspapers. Two liquored-up yahoo's exchange words over a card game, a whore, a dog, a cow or somebodies mama, and one of them pulls a gun and shoots t'other - sometimes on the spot, sometimes later on the street. Sometimes the second one has time to pull a gun and shoot back... sometimes not.
They are mostly awful shots which if you think about it makes sense, since ammo was (relatively) far more expensive in 1880's dollars than in todays dollars. People didn't practice much. And most of these guys are drunk when the shooting occurs.
And most of the victims don't die on the spot. They die a few days later from infection, internal bleeding, etc.
A few of these gunmen (the author claims the term "gunfighter" didn't come around until after 1900) were actual killing machines. The best example is Tom Horn, and it's perhaps noteworthy that only one actual killing was ever attributed to him - the one he was hanged for. Horn was up for hire to stockmen and others, and enemies of his employers simply disappeared or were found dead, usually from rifle bullets and far from any witnesses. He didn't stagger around town with an oversized hat twirling his guns; he was pretty much invisible. People died or disappeared, and he collected his money and left. Sounds more like a mafia hitman than a cowboy, doesn't he?
Keith
Need to read Triggernometry, like Keith sed. That gives the lowdown.
Here's my take: TRIGGERNOMETRY: A GALLERY OF GUNFIGHTERS
Here's my take: TRIGGERNOMETRY: A GALLERY OF GUNFIGHTERS
You'll have to excuse me 'cause I don't know any of the specifics, but I recall reading a story about how some guys chopped their barrels really short, and one guy took his whole trigger mechanism out, so to shoot, he had to fan it.
There was one tale of a saloon gunfight (in San Francisco, I think) where both guys were almost at arm's distance. Both guys drew, emptied their guns, drew their backups, and emptied them. When the smoke cleared, neither one had shot the other, so they just shook their heads, and went their separate ways...
There was one tale of a saloon gunfight (in San Francisco, I think) where both guys were almost at arm's distance. Both guys drew, emptied their guns, drew their backups, and emptied them. When the smoke cleared, neither one had shot the other, so they just shook their heads, and went their separate ways...
Mike Irwin
Member
I think the common perception of the Western gunfight is really tied up, and comes from, the general dueling mythos, and is largely an invention or complete fabrication. There were, however, some documented cases of people facing off on the main street in town, but I suspect that these were more happenstance than anything else.
I suspect that "bushwhacking" was one hell of a lot more common than we're led to believe.
Look what happened to Virgil and Morgan Earp after the shootout at the OK Corral. They were both shot by people who were hiding.
Jesse James and Wild Bill Hickock were both shot from behind...
Billy the Kid and Pat Garret shot it out in a darkened room.
I suspect that "bushwhacking" was one hell of a lot more common than we're led to believe.
Look what happened to Virgil and Morgan Earp after the shootout at the OK Corral. They were both shot by people who were hiding.
Jesse James and Wild Bill Hickock were both shot from behind...
Billy the Kid and Pat Garret shot it out in a darkened room.
doberman
Member
The quckdraw from the hip is fiction created in the '50's westerns.
History Channel
History Channel
I remember reading in an old Time-Life series of history books, that there were probably about 150 or so real gunfighters in the Old West. And, most of them came from the Reconstruction South, after the Civil War.
Some that come to mind were the James and Younger brothers/gang, who were probably more interested in robbing than killing. And then probably the most prolific killer of them all, John Wesley Hardin. Hardin apparently was more interested in killing than robbing, or much else.
Supposedly, guys like the James brothers who fought under Quantrill, the Confederate guerrilla leader during the Civil War, were very good shots with a handgun, even from a galloping horse.
Hardin was supposedly asked on time how many men he had killed. He responded that he had killed 47 men (at that point in time) and he did not count Blacks, Mexicans or Indians, only he did not use those more politically correct descriptions.
Watched on Public Television not too long ago a person having an original photo of Hardin that was being examined by an expert. The expert said the photo was worth at least $30,000. The photo showed Harding standing on a wide porch with
with several other men, and Hardin looked mean as a snake to me.
Some that come to mind were the James and Younger brothers/gang, who were probably more interested in robbing than killing. And then probably the most prolific killer of them all, John Wesley Hardin. Hardin apparently was more interested in killing than robbing, or much else.
Supposedly, guys like the James brothers who fought under Quantrill, the Confederate guerrilla leader during the Civil War, were very good shots with a handgun, even from a galloping horse.
Hardin was supposedly asked on time how many men he had killed. He responded that he had killed 47 men (at that point in time) and he did not count Blacks, Mexicans or Indians, only he did not use those more politically correct descriptions.
Watched on Public Television not too long ago a person having an original photo of Hardin that was being examined by an expert. The expert said the photo was worth at least $30,000. The photo showed Harding standing on a wide porch with
with several other men, and Hardin looked mean as a snake to me.
ACP230
Member
Northfield Minnesota was raided by the James Gang and the Younger Brothers in the 1870s. The gang was shot up pretty badly by irate townspeople using their personal weapons.
There's a museum in Northfield, and I took a stroll through it several years ago. hey have a couple of guns and some leather taken off the outlaws. The guns don't look too bad, but by today's standard the holsters are awfully thin and floppy looking.
There's a museum in Northfield, and I took a stroll through it several years ago. hey have a couple of guns and some leather taken off the outlaws. The guns don't look too bad, but by today's standard the holsters are awfully thin and floppy looking.
Waitone
Member
I remember my dad telling me about a shootout in Lincoln County, NM (he was born and raised therein so he relaying oral history). Seems a couple of cow punchers got likkered up and decided to take it to the street. They went to shooting at each other but succeeded in killing a bystander and a dog, and this after multiple reloads. Town's citizenry got fed up and gunned down the two cow punchers. So much for the walk down and two shots routine.
From all I've seen on the subject, Wild Bill Hickock was the only person in the Old West who ever did the walk-down gunfight, with any degree of certainty.
John Wesley Hardin was an actual fast draw artist and was as accurate as he was quick. I believe the El Paso Chief of Police attested to his speed and skill.
The rest of the gunfighters were probably ambush artists or those who were capable of hitting their target under fire.
John Wesley Hardin was an actual fast draw artist and was as accurate as he was quick. I believe the El Paso Chief of Police attested to his speed and skill.
The rest of the gunfighters were probably ambush artists or those who were capable of hitting their target under fire.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Fort Stockton, Texas, was a rough and tumble town in the late 1800s. There are a fair number of stories of murderous ambush type shootings of good guys and bad guys. The law enforcement was not of, shall we say, the highest quality, either...
A gunfight broke out one late afternoon inside a local saloon. About a half-dozen guys were involved. I guess powder smoke inside a closed room plays havoc with vision, because after everybody was out of ammunition, the only injuries were from splinters. Well over 100 bullet holes were counted in the walls, roof, floor and furniture...
, Art
A gunfight broke out one late afternoon inside a local saloon. About a half-dozen guys were involved. I guess powder smoke inside a closed room plays havoc with vision, because after everybody was out of ammunition, the only injuries were from splinters. Well over 100 bullet holes were counted in the walls, roof, floor and furniture...
, ArtThe Long and Short of It
As several of you have noted, the ambush or drygulch was a very common technique of building up a rep back in those days. Nobody asked how, just how many. Hardin, Billy Bonney, and several of the meaner hombres were known to have their gun at the ready and plug the opposition before he was aware he had a problem. The kid also turned a guy's cylinder so it snapped on the empty chamber just before making a statistic out of him.
Hickok, as noted above, was about the only one who had the sand to do the showdown, although there are reports that he took advantage of some situations. Trouble is, not many witnesses to many of the killings. One that was documented was the shooting of one Dave Tutt who Hickok shot at a measured 75 yards down the street. This is stuff I remember from Triggernometry.
As several of you have noted, the ambush or drygulch was a very common technique of building up a rep back in those days. Nobody asked how, just how many. Hardin, Billy Bonney, and several of the meaner hombres were known to have their gun at the ready and plug the opposition before he was aware he had a problem. The kid also turned a guy's cylinder so it snapped on the empty chamber just before making a statistic out of him.
Hickok, as noted above, was about the only one who had the sand to do the showdown, although there are reports that he took advantage of some situations. Trouble is, not many witnesses to many of the killings. One that was documented was the shooting of one Dave Tutt who Hickok shot at a measured 75 yards down the street. This is stuff I remember from Triggernometry.
TexasVet
Member
Ol' Wes was one of the few real gunhands, true, but he was also an awful liar (remember, he became a lawyer!) . His real total is 17, still the second highest known. Local boy from around these parts, a lot of kin in the local cemetaries. His daddy was the Methodist preacher.
He got shot in one of his early gunfights in Trinity, near where the post office is today, and the Methodist ladies smuggled him out of town in a buckboard so Daddy wouldn't be embarrassed.
During the months that followed the Civil War, James Butler “Wild Bill†Hickok spent much of his time in Springfield, MO., where he supported himself by gambling. During July, 1865 he got into a dispute with another gambler named Dave Tutt. Tutt was a former Confederate while Hickok had been a Union Scout. Before long bad blood developed between the two and things became hot when Tutt proposed to humiliate Hickok by walking across the Plaza wearing a watch of Bill’s that he’d taken to satisfy an alleged gambling debt. Hickok told him he’d never make it if he tried.
According to George Ward Nichols, a former Union officer and now writer for “Harper’s New Monthly Magazine,†this is what happen. (I am quoting from an original copy of the article that I have before me, including Nichols’ convoluted spelling.)
Next day, about noon, Bill went down on the squar (sic). He had said that Dave Tutt shouldn’t pack that watch across the squar (sic) unless dead men could walk.
When Bill got onter(sic) the squar(sic) he found a crowd stanin(sic) in the corner of the street by which he entered the squar (sic), which is from the south, you know. In this crow’d (sic) he saw a lot of Tutt’s friends; some were cousins of his’n (sic), just back from the reb army; and they jeered him, and boasted that Dave was a-goin (sic) to pack that watch across the squar (sic) as promised.
Then Bill saw Tutt stanin (sic) near the court-house, which you remember is on the west side, so that the crowd was behind Bill.
Just then, Tutt, who was alone, started from the court-house and walked out into the squar (sic), and Bill moved away from the crowd toward the west side of the squar (sic). Bout fifteen paces brought them opposite to each other, and about fifty yards apart. Tutt then showed his pistol. Bill had kept a sharp eye on him, and before Tutt could pint (sic) it Bill had his’n (sic) out.
At that moment you could have heard a pin drop in that squar (sic). Both Tutt and Bill fired, but one discharge followed the other so quick that it’s hard to say which went off first. Tutt was a famous shot, but he missed this time; the ball from his pistol went over Bill’s head.
Hickok however, didn’t miss and Dave Tutt fell dead.
At a later time, Nichols was in Wild Bill’s room when he offers to demonstrate his shooting skills. Again I quote from Nichols’ account.
“I would like to see you shoot,†says Nichols.
“Would yer,†replied the scout, drawing his revolver; and approaching the window, he pointed to a letter O in a sign-board which was fixed to a stone-wall of a building on the other side of the way.
“That sign is more then fifty yards away. I will put these six balls into the inside of the circle, which isn’t bigger then a man’s heart.â€
In an off-hand way, and without sighting the pistol with his eye, he discharged the six shots of his revolver. I afterwards saw that all the bullets had entered the circle.
Nichols’ article soon made Wild Bill a celebrity known the world over. Other writers would claim the distance during the fight was 75 yards or even more, and at least one account of the “sign-shooting†incident says the istance was “over 100 yards.†The readers of this post may feel free to take their pick.
According to George Ward Nichols, a former Union officer and now writer for “Harper’s New Monthly Magazine,†this is what happen. (I am quoting from an original copy of the article that I have before me, including Nichols’ convoluted spelling.)
Next day, about noon, Bill went down on the squar (sic). He had said that Dave Tutt shouldn’t pack that watch across the squar (sic) unless dead men could walk.
When Bill got onter(sic) the squar(sic) he found a crowd stanin(sic) in the corner of the street by which he entered the squar (sic), which is from the south, you know. In this crow’d (sic) he saw a lot of Tutt’s friends; some were cousins of his’n (sic), just back from the reb army; and they jeered him, and boasted that Dave was a-goin (sic) to pack that watch across the squar (sic) as promised.
Then Bill saw Tutt stanin (sic) near the court-house, which you remember is on the west side, so that the crowd was behind Bill.
Just then, Tutt, who was alone, started from the court-house and walked out into the squar (sic), and Bill moved away from the crowd toward the west side of the squar (sic). Bout fifteen paces brought them opposite to each other, and about fifty yards apart. Tutt then showed his pistol. Bill had kept a sharp eye on him, and before Tutt could pint (sic) it Bill had his’n (sic) out.
At that moment you could have heard a pin drop in that squar (sic). Both Tutt and Bill fired, but one discharge followed the other so quick that it’s hard to say which went off first. Tutt was a famous shot, but he missed this time; the ball from his pistol went over Bill’s head.
Hickok however, didn’t miss and Dave Tutt fell dead.
At a later time, Nichols was in Wild Bill’s room when he offers to demonstrate his shooting skills. Again I quote from Nichols’ account.
“I would like to see you shoot,†says Nichols.
“Would yer,†replied the scout, drawing his revolver; and approaching the window, he pointed to a letter O in a sign-board which was fixed to a stone-wall of a building on the other side of the way.
“That sign is more then fifty yards away. I will put these six balls into the inside of the circle, which isn’t bigger then a man’s heart.â€
In an off-hand way, and without sighting the pistol with his eye, he discharged the six shots of his revolver. I afterwards saw that all the bullets had entered the circle.
Nichols’ article soon made Wild Bill a celebrity known the world over. Other writers would claim the distance during the fight was 75 yards or even more, and at least one account of the “sign-shooting†incident says the istance was “over 100 yards.†The readers of this post may feel free to take their pick.
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