My Gunfight - "Thinking Outside Your Box"

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I'd only be comfortable with it pointing at someone across from me would be if it had a grip safety(1911 style), trigger safety(glock style), and manual safety. Keltec PF9 has a drop safety and long trigger pull, that's it. Trigger get's pulled somehow....BANG!
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have you considered an xd subcompact it has both the grip saftey and the trigger safety and is drop safe.
 
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Rusty, take a look at the Kangaroo holster at DeepConceal.com

The PF9 would fit, it would be much more comfortable than pocket carry and would only point at you. You could slip your current pocket holster in the pouch and you are good to go.
 
Good article. Scenario planning is an excellent exercise. Plan for every circumstance you can imagine. The brain is quite capable of sorting them out and identifying the correct response if you have properly thought them through. But of course Murphy is everywhere and you know what they say about battle plans, "They're good until the first round is fired." But the idea of a one size fits all "My Gunfight" is almost doomed from the outset.

Rusty, I think you're bordering on irrational fear here. I have an irrational fear of snakes. IMO you're illogically assigning risk values re: ND and chance of gunfight. Of course it is your choice but I think you're over compensating for the ND risk by carrying an empty gun. You are severely handicapping your ability to respond to a threat by narrowing "your gunfight" down to where you can always get your gun into battery. For instance, one of my plans for an armed robbery, if I'm carrying SOB, is to feign meek submission and fear and when reaching for my wallet pull the gun and shoot the BG. That's not going to happen with an empty gun. Before I'm accused of chest beating, another scenario might well include handing over the wallet.

Though it's a little extreme, IMO, I guess I can understand your willingness to sacrifice yourself rather than have a ND that hurts someone else. Me dying does not enter into any of my gunfight scenarios. Except in the sense that if I fail to execute my plan I might die, I do not train to fail.
 
I don't want to beat the "chamber loaded or empty" horse to death here, but I want to assure you, Rusty, and any others that feel the way you do, that your PF-9 is perfectly safe to carry with a loaded chamber.

When the chamber is charged, the hammer is "half-cocked" in a position that keeps it off the firing pin, and the firing pin spring won't allow the pin to move forward without the hammer striking it. On top of all that, the PF-9 has a longer, heavier trigger pull that would make it virtually impossible to fire the weapon unless the trigger was pulled intentionally.

I usually carry my PF-9 IWB in a Crossbreed Minituck, but, in the summer, I often carry it, chamber loaded, in the front pocket of my shorts without any holster at all. I just make sure there is nothing else in that pocket with the gun. I wouldn't recommend holsterless pocket carry with a striker-fired pistol and loaded chamber, but I am confident that DAO pistols like the PF-9, LCP, Kahr, etc. are perfectly safe when carried in this fashion.

As stated by a previous poster, your fear of carrying chamber loaded is nothing to be ashamed of. It took me a while to get comfortable with carrying a chamber loaded, striker-fired pistol IWB in a Crossbreed Supertuck after carrying a traditional double-action pistol, hammer down, for so many years. I had to reason out for myself the mechanics of the weapon, and come to the realization that there is no way the gun is going to fire, given the internal safeties, unless the trigger is pulled. And, in a quality holster, that won't happen unless I draw the firearm from the holster first. For me, because of the reasons mentioned in the article, chamber loaded is the only way to carry.
 
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Rusty, that PF-9 is a very safe double action only weapon only that would worry me a lot more if I had to protect my girlfriend or friend with an empty weapon. If you carry without a chambered round in an auto it might as well be unloaded. Rollplay having to get it out and charge it while a 10 second firefight is going down, you'd be better off hidding under table. If it 's not ready it's just extra weight to carry around.
As someone else said if you can't get your head rapped around painting other people when setting you should probably carry a double action only snub revolver, I doubt that will ease your thoughts though as I bet as many revolvers have went off either in or coming out a pocket. Every pocket pistol mentions that it is supposed to be snag free but I have trouble getting them out without snagging.
 
Thanks for the advice, everyone. Obviously carrying without a loaded chamber is better than not carrying, but I'm looking into 1911's now. The budget is tight, it might be a few months.
 
Hey, I wrote that. That's my article. Sweet.

I wrote that for USCCA a couple of years ago, as well as a bunch of others. Then my writing career took off, I got out of the gun business, and I've been too busy to do much teaching. Anyways, I've got no problems with people reprinting anything I've done, as long as it is attributed. Publicity is always good (subliminal hint - Buy my novels).
 
I and I'm sure many others agree carry with unloaded chamber is worse that not carrying at all, It's still an empty gun and while you try charging it your loosing any chance you had for surprise. From a self defense standpoint surprise is all you have. Many of us on this site are experenced in SD and have been through training courses in self defense. No Body Recomend's CC with empty chamber. What is obvious is you need to listen to the experts or experenced and realize your carrying to protect those people you worry about painting with your loaded and ready weapon. Remember the old saw GUN'S don't kill people, unless you do something careless they're very safe. You should never touch that gun in public unless your going to use it so your chance of an accident is non-existant.
 
Carrying in a pocket without a round chambered is dangerous. After the BG takes your weapon away, from you or off your body, he may use it on me or one of my loved ones.

Suggest you learn unarmed martial arts. And leave the weapon you are planning to supply the bad guy at home.

At least get some training in the Israeli technique, and practice regularly. Of course my Training in the Isaraeli Technique did not include or invision being used from the pocket.

From One of the top shooting instructors in America. Although I do not know John personally, John Farnam and I did our post graduate field trip with the same street gang, in the same neighborhood. From "John Farnam's Quips":

and as long as we're on the subject!

09 Feb 10

These comments from the owner/operator of an indoor range:

"An acquaintance came to our Range yesterday evening. He wanted to ask me some questions about his carry-pistol and then take it to the range and run several dozen rounds through it. He explained that he had been carrying it concealed, '... off and on,' for several months, ever since a gruesome homicide made our local news early last fall. I've encouraged him to get involved in some professional training, but he has put it off.

Once in a stall, he faced down-range, drew his pistol (SA XD/M, 9mm), and then pulled back and released the slide, chambering a round. I stopped him and asked if he had been carrying this pistol, in this condition, on his way to the Range.

He said, '... Of course!'

I responded, '... and you didn't have a round chambered?'

'Well, I don't carry with a round in the chamber, because I want to be... safe' ... ad nauseam

I then went through the usual lecture, the one about 'Who promised you your support-side hand will be available to you at the start of your next gunfight?'

Like so many, he readily acknowledged the unassailable logic of my argument, but he was '... still not sure'

I then advised him to remove his holster. I took the pistol from him, unloaded it, replaced it in the box it came in, and strongly advised him to leave it there until he 'finds the time' to attend professional instruction!

I can only wonder how many other frightened, confused, willfully-ignorant people there are, running around like this person, concerned about there personal safety, yet unwilling to do much more than take timid, abortive half-steps."

Comment: I'm sure their number is legion, and growing with every edition of the Evening News!

What follows is opinion:

You're either in the Navy, or you're not!

When a person indicates that he chooses to not carry a gun, because he is sick, or he just enjoyed a cocktail, or he is on medication, or he has made the personal choice not to go armed, for reasons that apparently suffice for him, you'll hear not a peep of argument from my corner. Far be it from me to dispense unsolicited advice!

However, when an otherwise normal, rational, and able-bodied person knowingly holsters a modern, auto loading pistol whose chamber is empty, and then expects to share a car, or dinner-table, with me, he will have to find someone else with whom to socialize. I want nothing to do with him!

I consider that person unstable and worse than useless. He is intentionally living in fantasy-land, and being in his presence is therefore contrary to my best interests. This world has never been sympathetic with the delusional!

I can't count on his skills, nor obviously, his judgment.

John Farnam
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They don't call my dreams, dreams. They are called Flashbacks. And I still see 1/2 to 1/3 of the platoons rifles jamming after the first shot. I also relive one of the several times we were overrun often. The good news is the worst of the flashbacks haven't hit me for a while. The bad news is they still happen.

If you fight, count on getting hurt. If you believe you ain't going to be hurt, it is quite a shock when the other guys first round hits home. Make sure you have at least a compact trauma kit on or near you for after the fight. When I CCW i have a rather advanced kit in my car. If I have my messenger bag (Jack Bauer copied me) I have a small one in there.

The bad guy gets to choose the time, place, method, weapons and level of violence to apply to the attack on you and/or your loved ones. He will most often not attack until he has you at some sort of disadvantage BEFORE he begins his attack. He didn't get his plan from me or you. He most likely will refuse to cooperate and either stop the attack or die the way you want him to or need him to.

He has Veto authority on everything you plan and try to do. You must get inside his OODA loop. Otherwise, well there will be no otherwise. Life gets real simple and absolute, quick.

And there is only one absolute in life and that is dead.

Of course prayer and luck can work too.

Go figure.

Fred
 
Everyone is bashing on me... I fail to see a single situation where I would be better off without my pistol even with an empty chamber.

If you can conjure a situation where I would honestly be worse off for having a pistol at all as opposed to having one with a chamber empty, please enlighten me.
 
Rusty,

Because an unloaded pistol is a liability.


You won't be able to use it in time. Once your attacker(s) has/have the upper hand, it's very tough to get that initiative back. After you are either incapacitated or otherwise under their control, they will get that gun and make use it. If they didn't have one before the attack, which is sometimes the case, they'll have one after.
 
Sure Rusty, I've got your answer.

If you can conjure a situation where I would honestly be worse off for having a pistol at all as opposed to having one with a chamber empty, please enlighten me.
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When you make the choice to be armed, you are also making the choice to not be a victim. When you are confronted by a life threatening attacker you will (or should) make the decision to draw and address the threat. The time it takes you to rack your slide and enter the action may not be time that you have. You may very well end up dead for your feeble efforts.

If you did not have a gun at all, you would play the victim. The assailant, who definitely responds to you drawing a weapon, may not respond if you simply comply. That would make you better off to not be armed in the first place.

Now I am not, and never will be, on the side of complying with someone who is threatening my life. However, drawing an unloaded weapon on an assailant (and it is unloaded for the purposes of defense) in hopes that you can get it loaded before they fill you with holes is idiocy at best, and tragic at worst. You would be better off to comply and be at their mercy.

That's your answer. Either carry the weapon in a manner that will allow you to defend yourself and others or leave it at home and hope your attacker shows mercy. That's the best advice I can give to help you preserve your life.
 
Rusty,

I don't want you thinking that people are piling on here. What you are seeing is what I understand to be a predictable reaction among some people who have been carrying regularly for a long time, who have had some or a lot of professional training with handguns, and who have thought about how gunfights happen and what it means to be caught up in one when you aren't physically ready for it.

I don't think people are bashing on you. I think they are trying to show you the error of your ways, and the Internet is an imperfect tool for such things. If I did see what I interpreted as untoward behavior, those posts would go away, and if the poster(s) persisted in such, they too would go away. This is S&T at The High Road- we are here to help one another, not to beat up on new members for fun.

I understand being concerned about where your muzzle points- you should be! But impairing your ability to defend yourself and your loved ones by carrying your pistol in a reduced state of readiness is a less than optimum response to a legitimate concern. If you don't like where the muzzle of your properly holstered pistol points when it's in a side pocket and you're seated, consider shifting it to a hip pocket, or going to IWB carry. Either of those is a better compromise than carrying with an empty chamber IMHO.

Hope this helps,

lpl
 
I know many of you have more knowledge than me about this... Hear what I am saying to you.

Please, read and understand this:
I DO understand that carrying with an empty chamber is not optimal. I DO NOT understand why anyone would tell me go unarmed instead of carrying with an empty chamber. That to me is insanity.

I am holster shopping for a more conceal-ly holster. My OWB holster(which I DO carry chamber loaded) is not concealed enough in a tshirt. Until I get one that does a better job, I will be carrying in the pocket holster when I'm in a tshirt. I refuse to paint family/friends with a loaded chamber. PERIOD.

Other than the specific scenario where the criminal already has a gun drawn on you, presenting your weapon, racking the slide, and firing is not a death sentence.

There are plenty of situations where you have the opportunity to rack the slide. Drive by shooting, active shooter at work, domestic violence, road rage, dog attack on another person, robbery of a store while you are simply another customer... these all give you a chance to rack the slide and still end the threat. Even if you are attacked by a dog, you could still rack the slide if the dog doesn't latch onto your hand.

Yet to some posters on here, I would be better off in these same situations with my bare hands instead of simply carrying and racking the darn thing.

Now, I'm fixing the situation by getting a IWB holster that I can carry +1 with, but that attitude is silly. Read some of the stories on here where members almost had to use their guns! Most of them could have racked the dang slide! Would they have been better off with bare hands and a prayer? Didn't think so!

That is all.
 
Rusty-The only insanity in this scenerio is not forseeing and roll playing a confrontation with a armed and ready BG. When confronted by one you might have 1 1/2 to 3 seconds to get your weapon drawn and fired. That about covers how fast he can recognize your armed and fire his weapon. How long does it take for you to draw and rack your slide. I can tell you from experience that you and the BG are going to be firing at the same moment or him first. Either result is deadly for you, then who protects your loved ones or takes care of them till someone else fills you roll.
Unreasonable fear is very difficult but if you can't deal with Loaded CC your better of with the gun in the box or glove box of car, it would be just as available and ready.
Pardner with all do respect your carrying for a reason other that SD and it's dangerous for you and companions. I'm beginning to think words won't move you but I suggest you get professional training before you continue carrying an EMPTY weapon.
 
You and your loved ones potential, not mine. The odds of nothing bad happening are quite in your favor. Good.

BUT!

Why bother asking if you choose to ignore and in some ways actually bait the question.

You have chosen to be unprejudiced by fact, and in this case, experience too. These are your issues, not ours. May you or your loved ones, not need to learn of YOUR problem, before you learn or "fix" it.

Goodbye.

Fred

"None are so blind as those who CHOOSE not to see."
 
I wouldn't say it's worse than being unarmed...BUT, you've got to compensate for the empty chamber with lots of extra training. You need to be able to draw and chamber as fast as others can draw. You need to be able to do it one handed and both of the preceding under pressure.
If you practice a lot and are as good at drawing + chambering, even 1 handed as the typical CCW holder is at just drawing...then I'd say it's only a slight disadvantage just because there's more room for Mr. Murphy to strike. Do you practice enough to make up for the initial disadvantage? (Rhetorical Q just for you...)

Also, skill at unarmed combat will buy time to draw and chamber. A forearm the throat will keep them occupied while you draw and chamber.
 
Baseless ideology has no place in SD technique, especially concerning gunfighting.

This is why I listen closely to people that have "been there and done that" as well as get involved in force on force exercises as much as possible, as painful as they may be (mostly for my ego). ;)

Good article BTW.
 
I appreciate Rusty's position, and the fact that he is working on a solution that works for HIM. can't we appreciate that he has taken the time and trouble to get his CCW license, and is working on acquiring a carry posture that is more advantageous? The idea that a pistol carried in condition three is useless is amazing to me. Someone already brought up the Israeli's. How about Sykes and Fairbairn? Under their oversight, the Shanghai Municipal Police carried condition three. That was a pretty rough place, and they often were confronted by criminals ready to shoot on sight. So then, not every tactical expert dismisses condition three as "worse than no gun"

Those of you who offered practical encouragement to Rusty have my appreciation. I've learned a lot from this thread. I think the zeal some others have showed was a bit over the top. Why the sensitivity? Don't we want to encourage CCW? Just because everyone doesn't do it "the right" way, is that a reason to insult them, or discourage them?

Rusty, if we ever happen to be in the same locale, and someone tries to take me down, I hope you and your pistol come to my assistance, and I could not care less what condition you are carrying it in, as long as you get it into action as best you can. I much prefer that over you throwing rocks at my assailant, but I would take that too...


This place is called "The High Road", right? Conform or be cast out?

How about good reasoned advice, encouragement, and trying to understand where some one else stands at the moment.

BTW, I carry one in the chamber, in case anyone wonders

:D

Take care,

Tom
 
Just to add some professional opinions to the OP's question.

Skill Set: Assumptions On Fighting

By Tiger McKee

When it comes to responding to a violent assault people have a tendency to assume how the fight will progress, and how the threat will react. It's always good to have a plan, but you need to remember that the fight will never go like you think it will, so you need backup plans, the unexpected will always occur, and to make assumptions may put you in a bad place before the fight ever begins.

As an instructor people always share their 'tactical' response plans with me. "If someone breaks into our front door," they explain, "I'm going to do this while my wife is doing that." Their plans will work great, as long as the threat does exactly what they are supposed to. The problem is that we really don't know what the threat will do. Good guys often don't have the experience to 'think' like the bad guys. What if they come through the back door, and now the husband is in one end of the house while the wife is in the other, with the threat between them?

It's important to have a plan, but you need to have several options. When plan A doesn't work, you roll into plan B, and if that doesn't get the job done you're flowing into plan C. Try to consider all the variables in a fight, and then plan for the worst case scenario. That way when things don't go exactly right, which they won't, you are still prepared with options.

We also need plan X, which is for the unexpected. You could consider a million ways the fight may happen - when, where and why - and you won't come up with the conditions that will occur during your fight. We practice the skills we know we'll need - movement, communication, shooting, manipulation of our weapon, and using cover - so we have the skills necessary to respond to any type attack. This also prepares us for the unexpected. I'm fighting with my rifle and it malfunctions. While this is expected, I knew it could happen, so I immediately transition to my pistol, continuing to engage the threat.

The most dangerous thing about preparing for a violent conflict is assuming how the threat will respond to your actions. The only thing in a fight you can control is what you will do. There is no predicting how the threat will respond. You may present your weapon, issue verbal commands, and the threat complies. Or you shoot, several times and getting good hits, but the threat is unfazed and continues fighting. Remember the old saying about when you assume something. It makes you an ass; I won't be there so it won't affect me.

Fights are violent, dynamic, and unpredictable. The only thing we control is our actions. We start with plan A, B, C, and X. The progression of the fight is not always sequential. I may start with plan A, then I jump to plan C, then it's back to plan B. Prepare by practicing the skills you know you'll need, and then always expect the unexpected. The fight will likely be determined by your reactions to the unknown.

Tiger McKee is director of Shootrite Firearms Academy, located in northern Alabama, author of The Book of Two Guns, a staff member of several firearms/tactical publications, and an adjunct instructor for the F.B.I. (256) 582-4777 www.shootrite.org
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Go figure.

Fred
 
Everyone is bashing on me... I fail to see a single situation where I would be better off without my pistol even with an empty chamber.
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This thread might be a good example of that! People tend to group up and attack.

Probably one of the most common scenario's is the "Hey man, you got a light...?" attack where 2 or 3 people approach and surround you while doing nothing overtly threatening. Are you going to be able to draw and chamber a round before somebody grabs you and prevents that action? Then they have your gun and you're outnumbered and unarmed.

If your firearm isn't ready for use, then you're not ready to defend yourself.
 
Has it occurred to you that your dream is trying to tell you something. Imagine your loved ones with you in an attack like this. You're down, either injured or dead because you couldn't chamber a round in time. Now your loved ones are at the mercy of your attacker(s). They might wind up dead -- or worse. Is it worth risking that because you don't want to paint them with a loaded chamber when you're sitting down?
 
Probably one of the most common scenario's is the "Hey man, you got a light...?" attack where 2 or 3 people approach and surround you while doing nothing overtly threatening. Are you going to be able to draw and chamber a round before somebody grabs you and prevents that action? Then they have your gun and you're outnumbered and unarmed.
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OK, say you are in that spot, and you draw your pistol with a chambered round. Are you going to draw when they have done nothing overtly threatening? If you draw, what if they take YOUR weapon? Now they can shoot you with your chambered round!

If they take his un chambered pistol, he has a chance to run, or fight, or react some other way while they react to the pistol not going off.

The answer in your scenario is situational awareness, and not letting yourself get surrounded. If you get surrounded and surprised, you are in bad shape, round chambered or not. If you avoid the attempted containment, you have a much better chance, no matter how you are carrying your pistol.

The point is, you can come up with a scenario to defeat any preparations, tactics, or equipment you want to name. You cannot guarantee success. You can do your best to prepare, and pray it never happens, and then pray you survive if it does happen.

Do you guys just want this guy to cave in, and admit you all are right? he pretty much has admitted the shortcomings of how he does things. But several of you seem to insist that a pistol without a round in the chamber is worse than no gun at all. Just because you can demonstrate that such may be the case in selected scenarios does not prove the general point. What I suggested above is just one way that an un chambered pistol might be superior to a chambered one. It would not be hard to come up with several others.

It seems like the OP has made his point very well. Thinking outside the box is hard for a lot of us.

Tom
 
OK, say you are in that spot, and you draw your pistol with a chambered round. Are you going to draw when they have done nothing overtly threatening? If you draw, what if they take YOUR weapon? Now they can shoot you with your chambered round!
Click to expand...

If I draw, it's because I intend to shoot. I'd prefer a loaded gun should that circumstance arise.
 
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