My Gunfight - "Thinking Outside Your Box"

Status
Not open for further replies.

REAPER4206969

Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
3,037
Location
Idaho
"Thinking outside your box"

"...Assumptions are awesome when they're actually right, but they sure can hurt when you're wrong......"
by Larry Correia

I've been a concealed carry instructor for five years, I hang out with a bunch of gun nuts, and I've been around self-defense buffs for most of my adult life. In that time I've seen a recurring theme, and unfortunately it can be a dangerous one. Many of us have something in common.

I call it My Gunfight. We've imagined a scene, a violent encounter, in our head. And in this scene, we take decisive action and we prevail and save the day. Many of us have a mental fabrication of what My Gunfight is going to be like.

Most people who chose to carry a gun have done this. I have myself. It isn't anything to be ashamed of. In fact, it really helps develop a proper mindset to be able to realistically assess what kind of terrible things can happen to you and start laying some groundwork about how we want to respond.

The problem comes in when we make assumptions about My Gunfight.
Assumptions are awesome when they're actually right, but they sure can hurt when you're wrong.

I have had students tell me that they never practice at anything past conversational distance, because the average gunfight takes place at only seven feet. See, in Their Gunfight, the bad guy will be conveniently placed at a distance that they can actually hit stuff.

Sadly, there's no such thing as an average gunfight. The only thing they have in common is that they all suck. If you only prepare for a gunfight inside an elevator, it will be a bummer when the crazy guy starts shooting at you across the mall. I've had students tell me that if the assailant is that far away, then they wouldn't be justified in shooting. That's also a mistake. There are hundreds of reasons why you might need to shoot somebody out past conversational distance. And if you find yourself in a situation where you need to, you dang well better have practiced.

Another assumption I get from many students is that they will have plenty of time to draw their gun and get it into action. Oftentimes these folks want to carry with an empty chamber. There is a misconception that this is somehow safer, and besides in Their Gunfight, they'll have plenty of time, and both hands available, to get their pistol into action.

In real life, the bad guys may not be as compliant as the ones in Your Gunfight. In real life, the violence may occur so quickly that you do not have time to rack the slide. Or you may have one hand occupied holding the bad guy back from stabbing you in the head with a screwdriver. The point is, you won't know until it happens. Even best case scenario you've added a significant amount of time to your draw stroke (and if you've been in a fight to the death, you know that even a second is a significant amount of time), and one more chance to fumble and screw up.

During my regular class, I integrate a role-playing session. We go through several realistic scenarios with students and actors armed with rubber weapons. All of these scenarios are based on actual cases, and like real life, most of them tend to happen quickly.

Usually after going through the role-plays, nobody is tempted to carry chamber empty anymore. A fatal assumption was pointed out in Their Gunfight, and they adjust accordingly. If you're really worried about carrying with a loaded chamber, get a good, safe holster that keeps the gun secure and protects the trigger. If you still have a mental hang up, switch to a gun that has a heavier trigger or other safety devices. Anything is faster and safer than assuming you'll be in a position to rack a slide.

These are just a few examples of assumptions caused by My Gunfight.
One of my personal favorite students of all time was hung up, not only on carrying chamber empty, but he also had a belief that he would "easily" be able to neutralize the bad guy by shooting them in the leg. No, I kid you not. He brought this up repeatedly during class, even after I pointed out that it could be just as fatal only slower, the same lethal force in the eyes of the law, and with the added benefit of not being nearly as effective at incapacitating an actual threat. What did I know? I was only the guy he was paying to teach him this stuff.

During the role-play, he was lucky enough to get a scenario that I use to demonstrate the principles of a Tueller drill. Without going into too many details, I'm playing the part of an obviously dangerous threat, interrupted in the act of committing a forcible felony on a third person, with the ability and opportunity to cause him serious bodily harm, and I just happen to start twenty-one feet away with a rubber knife.

I charged. He went for his gun. Not only did he fail to rack the slide and shoot me in the leg like he had talked about, he managed to draw the gun, fumble, and actually tossed it across the room. I stabbed him a few times, and as a happy bonus, picked his gun up before I fled the scene.

His Gunfight had not taken into account things like speed, adrenalin, or confusion. Last I checked, he was carrying a chamber loaded Glock, in a good holster, and practicing a bunch.

That was an extreme example, but I think all of us need to watch out for the decisions we make based upon our assumptions. Be smart, be realistic, and don't be afraid to keep an open mind. Just because My Gunfight makes sense to me, doesn't mean that the world cares one bit.

-Larry Correia is an author, firearms instructor, and one of the owners of Fuzzy Bunny Movie Guns in Draper, Utah. FBMG is a gun store, specializing in self-defense needs, training, and full-line smithing.

Their online store is at www.fbmginc.com. His first novel, Monster Hunter International, will be released by Baen Books in June 2009. The author can be reached at [email protected]
Self-Defense article.
 
Yeahhhh...good to ponder.


In my imaginary Gunfights I only rarely prevail.


Usually I am too slow to realize something is up...too slow after that...go into my old Bulls Eys stance by the time bullet no 4 is hitting me and making my clothes jump with Cattle-Prod whammy-whumps, and none of it goes well.

I have a good attitude though, which is something.

And, I always have much cooler Guns than the BGs.
 
This summarizes perfectly the problem with all those "what if" scenarios people write about constantly.
 
This summarizes perfectly the problem with all those "what if" scenarios people write about constantly.

i see the "what if" scenarios that are posted as useful as they give you different pov's which may show a better option to ponder if you ever where placed in a predicament that resembled one of the scenarios. you may not have thought about an aspect of a potential gunfight/defense scenario that another poster elaborated on and may find it insightful and useful.

nobody knows the situation one may find themselves in and it's impossible to plan exactly for that one situation, all we can do is to train and to prepare ourselves for when, if ever it comes.


thanks for posting the article reaper.
 
Good article! Might get some cogs turning in some peoples heads.
I love it when someone chimes in that "according to the FBI 99.9% of all shootouts are within 7 yards and involve 1 or 2 shots" Really
 
In the army we used to train to escape an enemy who held us at gunpoint by throwing ourselves on our backs, drawing a 1911 from it's holster and firing up at the target. In dry fire training the opponent was usually defeated the first 2 times even though they were expecting a stunt. And yes, the flap holster was a royal pain.
 
My problems is with dreams where I get in a gunfight and my gun doesnt work.
 
In my dream my gun used to not work ... until i started shooting more often. Now it works, though sometimes i have to pull hard on trigger... and then the badguy does not stop after being shot.
 
Dreams are interesting...


For years, various Gunfight dreams I would have, I always had problems, good gun, no ammo or wrong ammo, missing parts on Gun, Battlefield Dug-Relic Gun, everything rusted and useless, stuff like that. Me getting shot up or killed, ugh...

Eventually ( mid 1980s ) this cleared up, and far as I recall, every dream I have had since where BGs were shooting at me, everything would go well, my strategies and cover/concealment would be good, Revolver or Automatic would function great, spare Speedloaders or Magazines or Box of Ammo in my pocket, and I would make out okay...BGs definitely dropping well when hit well...dropping or effected so-so when hit so-so.


Seriously though, far as 'real life' - I do try and be alert and sensitive to situations, persons, distances...and now and then, I realize I was missing important cues.

Nothing has occurred which was serious in result, but, it is a challenge to be on the ball well enough to see or feel things coming sometimes.

'Feel' is usually as good as or better than 'see', especially when there is little or nothing to see.


Trust those feelings...and best of all, trust them so you won't be where trouble is waiting, or, where trouble is going to arrive.

That is the most elegant and tidy...and, probably the happiest form of preparedness: honoring or responding to one's subtle apprehensive 'gut' so as to take a different route, skip that 7-11 Beer or Cigarette stop...have Lunch somewhere else than planned...be late for Work, or whatever.

Not always easy in our harried Lives...
 
Last edited:
I have had some doozies but i have learned from them. Had one before with a scenario where a dude came into the gun shop I frequent with a gun. Moved so quick he managed to disarm the guys behind the counters but turned his back on me.

I drew, pointed at center mass, pulled the trigger....nothing (I did not have one in the chamber) before I could rack the slide he shot one of the clerks. It was the last of a series of dreams I had where I ran into scenarios where not having one chambered caused a bad outcome. Kept one chambered ever since that day. So yeah, they can be useful in proving a point.
 
*&^%$... I carry with an empty chamber. And my subconscious is obviously trying to tell me something. I keep having this dream of getting tackled and then stabbed repeatedly in the face while trying to get my pistol out. Every time I reach up to rack it, I get stabbed in the face and the guy pins my wrist to the pavement.

It's vivid and scary as all Hell...In this dream, I can feel warm blood on my face...I can smell it...I can feel the guy's sweaty hand pinning my wrist... I wake up panting and out of breath with my heart beating out of my chest...I get a no BS, full on adrenaline dump in my sleep. Complete with the all-over tingling feeling and loss of fine motor control when trying to pour myself some water after I wake up. Obviously, it keeps me awake for a bit after that.

I'm not confident enough with the safety of my gun/holster setup that carrying one in the chamber won't lead to an ND. I don't have the cash right now to get anything I would feel safe enough about to carry with one in the pipe. For me, right now, I think my cost/benefit analysis is correct. The chances of needing it are minuscule... and the odds of an ND with a chambered round my setup are probably slightly larger than the odds of needing the pistol that fast.

Does anyone have any inexpensive recommendations?
 
Last edited:
Keltec PF9

Several holsters, most common one I use is a pocket holster. It protects the trigger just perfect and is practically invisible in cargo shorts...but when I sit down, it ends up pointing at whoever I'm sitting across from. I can't get my head around doing that with one in the chamber...
 
This post agree's exactley with my theory on gun fights, good post. I too have had dreams but mine are from combat day's and vary but I always have trouble with weapons, wrong ammo, gun falls to peices, when I do fire it has no effect and just as BG's overrun me I emptying my last loaded mag and am trying to load a mag. That's when I alway's wake up in a sweat and with my heart beating 125 beats at least.
when I've been in combat I've never had a problem like this and have alway's wondered why the dreams. The one positive is I practice, practice and practice some more so I don't end up like that.
IMHO the only think worse that a empty chamber is the idea you shoot to wound not to kill. If you didn't start the reason for use of deadly force you don't have to worry, that is unless your from California, New York city, Chicago etc.
 
"My problems is with dreams where I get in a gunfight and my gun doesnt work. "

My problem exactly. Tired of those dreams!
 
Keltec PF9

Several holsters, most common one I use is a pocket holster. It protects the trigger just perfect and is practically invisible in cargo shorts...but when I sit down, it ends up pointing at whoever I'm sitting across from. I can't get my head around doing that with one in the chamber...
Rusty, nothing I say will totally reassure you, but if the PF-9 is a double action pistol (for some reason, the action type doesn't appear on their website) then there's really no risk of it just going off.

I understand your unease with your holstered gun pointing at others. I've had the same thought myself. The reality is that the Four Rules have their limits, and this is one of them. Even holstered guns will inevitably "flag" others and yourself at some point. Heck, just walking while using an IWB holster points the muzzle at one's own body. Modern handguns are exceptionally safe, and there's just not much of anything that could happen to make the gun go off without you pulling the trigger.

So the point is, there's a much greater chance of you needing that extra round, or not having time to rack the chamber, than there is of the gun just going off. Like I said, there's just not much of a way that it could ever happen.
 
Kenno, I read an Ayoob file, IIRC, where a cop tried exactly that, and ended blowing off his own big toe. A fragment of his tow bone hit the BG, who figured he had beenshot and gave up. Ouch.
Rusty, have confidence in your equipment, or sell it and buy a pocket revolver.
BTW, I don't dream about guns. :) I do try to set up "what ifs" for various situations that I am in, may be in, or have been in.

I did do a poster for this some time ago, just dug it up again.

ADAPTSURVIVE-1.jpg
 
Last edited:
I know it doesn't make any sense logically. The odds of it going off without a pull of the trigger are so tiny it's not even worth thinking about it. I'm just eeexxxxtreeeeemely uncomfortable with a chambered round pointing at my girlfriend. Seriously, I'd rather die a thousand agonizing deaths than kill my girlfriend/family/friend from a ND. So since it bothers me so bad(whether it makes sense or not), I only carry one in the chamber when carrying on my belt holster.

I just carry more often with the pocket holster. I don't know of any pocket pistols that have enough safeties to make me comfortable carrying one in the tube. I think I'd only be comfortable with it pointing at someone across from me would be if it had a grip safety(1911 style), trigger safety(glock style), and manual safety. Keltec PF9 has a drop safety and long trigger pull, that's it. Trigger get's pulled somehow....BANG!
 
Your objective should be to adapt to the situation so you can get inside of, and disrupt your adversary's preconceived idea of "his gunfight".
 
Rusty, get a DAO hammerless snub wheelgun. Carry in a Mikas pocket rig. Nothing can touch the trigger, and a long deliberate trigger pull MUST happen to fre the sidearm. That seriously might be your best option.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top