Max Velocity
Member
http://www.armalite.com/library/history/history.htm
Quit badmouthing the AR-7!
- Thread starter B yond
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kBob
Member
Max V,
Thanks for your post, it would seem to clarify that the AR7 was NOT adopted by the USAF.
Dispite the text, one wonders how a semi auto rimfire could be consided the Civilian version of a center fire bolt action.
The reason I mentioned a metal open frame stock was......that's what the AR5 I held in my own little hands had. Its been years and it was just some guy on the range that had it. As it was one of those things you don't see outside museums very much it caught my attention.
Perhaps there were differnt models made to attract the government contract or perhads some one did and exce,,ent job of fanricating the metal stock to replace a lost floating one, but the metal was what was on that rifle.
If the USAF Armament Museum web site is back up perhaps there may be an example of the rifle there as it was puchased for testing.
I wish Armalite HAD made a civilian version of the AR 5 with the floater stock and a 16 inch barrel and bolt action either in .22 Hornet or .22 rimfire.
-Bob Hollingsworth
Thanks for your post, it would seem to clarify that the AR7 was NOT adopted by the USAF.
Dispite the text, one wonders how a semi auto rimfire could be consided the Civilian version of a center fire bolt action.
The reason I mentioned a metal open frame stock was......that's what the AR5 I held in my own little hands had. Its been years and it was just some guy on the range that had it. As it was one of those things you don't see outside museums very much it caught my attention.
Perhaps there were differnt models made to attract the government contract or perhads some one did and exce,,ent job of fanricating the metal stock to replace a lost floating one, but the metal was what was on that rifle.
If the USAF Armament Museum web site is back up perhaps there may be an example of the rifle there as it was puchased for testing.
I wish Armalite HAD made a civilian version of the AR 5 with the floater stock and a 16 inch barrel and bolt action either in .22 Hornet or .22 rimfire.
-Bob Hollingsworth
Essex County
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2005
- Messages
- 1,247
When I was a stocking dealer I probably special ordered six or seven for customers after telling them it was a crude, not very shootable and not very reliable. It had no advantages over a single shot Marlin that I could ever see. I can build a case for most every firearm, but not this one. I hate to be down on any firearm.....However these are an exception to the rule. Essex
ec-10
Member
I wish I could convert my (Henry) AR-7 to a bolt action, then maybe it would be worth taking to the range. 
Gator
Member
As an aside, the Israeli Air Force reportedly bought some AR-7s to use as survival rifles. They were reimported and sold here. They had a metal frame buttstocks and flash hiders, but I don't know if the Israelis put those on or the importer. The buttstock had a neat clip that held a spare magazinze.
tkendrick
Member
I had an Armalite made in the early 70's. While it always gave the feel of a cheap SNS, I never had any problems with it with any ammo I fed it, and it was scary accurate. Traded it off to a bush pilot in Alaska in '82. Always wished I had it back.
I don't know if it's wishful remembering or not, but the new ones I've seen don't seem to be nearly as well built (and that's a scary thought).
I don't know if it's wishful remembering or not, but the new ones I've seen don't seem to be nearly as well built (and that's a scary thought).
Having gone through three of these in over 20 years while trying to like them in the end it was a failed attempt as none were close to reliable enough with a variety of ammunition tried.
Great concept in a neat little package (better met by a .22/20G Savage 24C) and a handy rifle to say the least but 90-95% reliable is not good enough for me especially in the boonies when I would need them to work and they would either jam or go click from too light of a primer strike.
The Explorer pistol version was no better either it was also a jammomatic!
If you have one that works and you like it great but most people I know sell these off and end up with something else.
A good alternative is a Ruger 10/22 with a folding stock and a leightweight barrel or a Browning .22 takedown rifle or Taurus pump action 62 (Winchester clone) takedown carbine.
JMHO
Great concept in a neat little package (better met by a .22/20G Savage 24C) and a handy rifle to say the least but 90-95% reliable is not good enough for me especially in the boonies when I would need them to work and they would either jam or go click from too light of a primer strike.
The Explorer pistol version was no better either it was also a jammomatic!
If you have one that works and you like it great but most people I know sell these off and end up with something else.
A good alternative is a Ruger 10/22 with a folding stock and a leightweight barrel or a Browning .22 takedown rifle or Taurus pump action 62 (Winchester clone) takedown carbine.
JMHO
I have a Charter Arms AR-7 that I bought back in the 80's . It's light, it's as accurate as I am, and has never misfed from the factory magazine. As a matter of fact, the only times it's ever malfunctioned have been when using an aftermarket 15 round mag.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Nope. I shot the early AR15/M16 at Fort Bragg in '66 -- these were the original Air Force version purchased by Special Forces. They did not have the heavy barrel, fast twist, square front sight, etc., etc., all introduced later.
Sir Aardvark
Member
They float!
So you could always tie some fishing line and a hook to it and use it to catch fish.
So you could always tie some fishing line and a hook to it and use it to catch fish.
joplinsks
Member
I've never seen a Charter Arms AR-7 that didn't have a piece of electrical or duct tape holding some part of it together
Carl N. Brown
Member
The Armalite AR5 was accepted as a replacement for the M4
which was a wire-stock, bolt action that fed .22 Hornet from
the same magazine as the Savage bolt action rifles.
The M4 action was adapted from a Mossberg bolt IIRC.
Now, the AR5 introduced the same style stock and takedown
as the AR7, but was not procured in any significant numbers
because SAC was well-stocked with the M4 and M6 survival
guns. AR5 had to fit within the 14" space under a bomber seat,
so if any AR5s are around, they are a rare NFA short barrel rifle.
AR7 is based the AR5, but AR7 itself was never adopted by the
Air Force as a survival rifle. AR7 has been used by Australia as
a military, silenced weapon; again that is limited use.
As others have pointed out, AR7s have probably seem more
issue in the movies (Firestarter, From Russia With Love, etc)
than in the military.
The AR7 has a pretty heavy bolt for a .22, and premium high
velocity ammo does improve reliability; also the feed lips of
the magazine and the feed ramp on the front of the magazine
are subject to deformation. I have a Cosa Mesa Armalite AR7
rifle and a Charter Arms Explorer II pistol. The rifle works best
with CCI Stinger, but the pistol is more accurate with Winchester
Super-X, for whatever that observation is worth. Given the
minimum and maximum chamber and cartridge spex, you will
find optimum combinations of gun and make of ammo. Rarely
will a gun work equally well with all brands of ammo, especially
.22 rimfire.
I had a Winchester 69 with the barrel bobbed at 17",
stock forearm trimmed back, scope mounted to barrel,
that could be taken down with a coin to fit in a 21"
carry case. That to me is a better option, since that
allows use of everything from .22 short CB to Stinger.
which was a wire-stock, bolt action that fed .22 Hornet from
the same magazine as the Savage bolt action rifles.
The M4 action was adapted from a Mossberg bolt IIRC.
Now, the AR5 introduced the same style stock and takedown
as the AR7, but was not procured in any significant numbers
because SAC was well-stocked with the M4 and M6 survival
guns. AR5 had to fit within the 14" space under a bomber seat,
so if any AR5s are around, they are a rare NFA short barrel rifle.
AR7 is based the AR5, but AR7 itself was never adopted by the
Air Force as a survival rifle. AR7 has been used by Australia as
a military, silenced weapon; again that is limited use.
As others have pointed out, AR7s have probably seem more
issue in the movies (Firestarter, From Russia With Love, etc)
than in the military.
The AR7 has a pretty heavy bolt for a .22, and premium high
velocity ammo does improve reliability; also the feed lips of
the magazine and the feed ramp on the front of the magazine
are subject to deformation. I have a Cosa Mesa Armalite AR7
rifle and a Charter Arms Explorer II pistol. The rifle works best
with CCI Stinger, but the pistol is more accurate with Winchester
Super-X, for whatever that observation is worth. Given the
minimum and maximum chamber and cartridge spex, you will
find optimum combinations of gun and make of ammo. Rarely
will a gun work equally well with all brands of ammo, especially
.22 rimfire.
I had a Winchester 69 with the barrel bobbed at 17",
stock forearm trimmed back, scope mounted to barrel,
that could be taken down with a coin to fit in a 21"
carry case. That to me is a better option, since that
allows use of everything from .22 short CB to Stinger.
Carl N. Brown
Member
The Armalite AR5 was accepted as a replacement for the M4
which was a wire-stock, bolt action that fed .22 Hornet from
the same magazine as the Savage bolt action rifles.
The M4 action was adapted from a Mossberg bolt IIRC.
Now, the AR5 introduced the same style stock and takedown
as the AR7, but was not procured in any significant numbers
because SAC was well-stocked with the M4 and M6 survival
guns. AR5 had to fit within the 14" space under a bomber seat,
so if any AR5s are around, they are a rare NFA short barrel rifle.
AR7 is based the AR5, but AR7 itself was never adopted by the
Air Force as a survival rifle. AR7 has been used by Australia as
a military, silenced weapon; again that is limited use.
As others have pointed out, AR7s have probably seem more
issue in the movies (Firestarter, From Russia With Love, etc)
than in the military.
The AR7 has a pretty heavy bolt for a .22, and premium high
velocity ammo does improve reliability; also the feed lips of
the magazine and the feed ramp on the front of the magazine
are subject to deformation. I have a Cosa Mesa Armalite AR7
rifle and a Charter Arms Explorer II pistol. The rifle works best
with CCI Stinger, but the pistol is more accurate with Winchester
Super-X, for whatever that observation is worth. Given the
minimum and maximum chamber and cartridge spex, you will
find optimum combinations of gun and make of ammo. Rarely
will a gun work equally well with all brands of ammo, especially
.22 rimfire.
I had a Winchester 69 with the barrel bobbed at 17",
stock forearm trimmed back, scope mounted to barrel,
that could be taken down with a coin to fit in a 21"
carry case. That to me is a better option, since that
allows use of everything from .22 short CB to Stinger.
which was a wire-stock, bolt action that fed .22 Hornet from
the same magazine as the Savage bolt action rifles.
The M4 action was adapted from a Mossberg bolt IIRC.
Now, the AR5 introduced the same style stock and takedown
as the AR7, but was not procured in any significant numbers
because SAC was well-stocked with the M4 and M6 survival
guns. AR5 had to fit within the 14" space under a bomber seat,
so if any AR5s are around, they are a rare NFA short barrel rifle.
AR7 is based the AR5, but AR7 itself was never adopted by the
Air Force as a survival rifle. AR7 has been used by Australia as
a military, silenced weapon; again that is limited use.
As others have pointed out, AR7s have probably seem more
issue in the movies (Firestarter, From Russia With Love, etc)
than in the military.
The AR7 has a pretty heavy bolt for a .22, and premium high
velocity ammo does improve reliability; also the feed lips of
the magazine and the feed ramp on the front of the magazine
are subject to deformation. I have a Cosa Mesa Armalite AR7
rifle and a Charter Arms Explorer II pistol. The rifle works best
with CCI Stinger, but the pistol is more accurate with Winchester
Super-X, for whatever that observation is worth. Given the
minimum and maximum chamber and cartridge spex, you will
find optimum combinations of gun and make of ammo. Rarely
will a gun work equally well with all brands of ammo, especially
.22 rimfire.
I had a Winchester 69 with the barrel bobbed at 17",
stock forearm trimmed back, scope mounted to barrel,
that could be taken down with a coin to fit in a 21"
carry case. That to me is a better option, since that
allows use of everything from .22 short CB to Stinger.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Weak shouldering:
Another thought about the AR7:
I tried firing mine without the stock: just the
barreled action. Function was lousy. Without
shoulder resistence, it failed to operate properly.
It was like the gun was recoiling with the bolt,
rather than the bolt recoiling within the receiver.
This reminds me of the problem some semi-auto
pistols have with "limp wristing" causing jams.
AR7s may be prone to "weak shouldering."
Another thought about the AR7:
I tried firing mine without the stock: just the
barreled action. Function was lousy. Without
shoulder resistence, it failed to operate properly.
It was like the gun was recoiling with the bolt,
rather than the bolt recoiling within the receiver.
This reminds me of the problem some semi-auto
pistols have with "limp wristing" causing jams.
AR7s may be prone to "weak shouldering."
kBob
Member
Carl N. Brown,
Thank you for your gentlemanly correction. No doubt I must have been shown an M4 from your discription. Thank you for not going the Neener-neener route.
-Bob Hollingsworth
Thank you for your gentlemanly correction. No doubt I must have been shown an M4 from your discription. Thank you for not going the Neener-neener route.
-Bob Hollingsworth
SwampWolf
Member
Concerning so-called survival firearms, does anyone remember or have experience with a firearm of this genre marketed by the Garcia Corporation during the sixties, dubbed the "Bronco"? Though it was a single-shot and didn't float, the gun weighed three pounds and, when taken down, measured less than 20". It was claimed that the one piece stock and receiver "can't rust" and it was equipped with an adjustable sight. It was chambered in either .22 rimfire or .410 gauge (caliber).
Max Velocity
Member
M4 Rifle
M4
The M4 was built by H&R and was converted from the existing Model 265 series rimfire rifle. The magazine used was the same as the Model M23D Savage.
The M4 had a removable 14-inch barrel and telescoping stock. It was developed during WWII and superseded later by the M6 O/U .22 Hornet/410 shotgun also with a 14-inch barrel. IIRC the M6 was manufactured by Ithaca.
M6
M4
The M4 was built by H&R and was converted from the existing Model 265 series rimfire rifle. The magazine used was the same as the Model M23D Savage.
The M4 had a removable 14-inch barrel and telescoping stock. It was developed during WWII and superseded later by the M6 O/U .22 Hornet/410 shotgun also with a 14-inch barrel. IIRC the M6 was manufactured by Ithaca.
M6
Max Velocity
Member
Garcia Bronco
Carl N. Brown
Member
I have owned two Broncos (retained one) in .22 lr.
I have also seen them in .22 magnum single shot,
.410 single shot, and as a .22 lr/.410 over/under.
That is four versions (so far).
I have also seen them in .22 magnum single shot,
.410 single shot, and as a .22 lr/.410 over/under.
That is four versions (so far).
GeneralTJWillys
Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2009
- Messages
- 22
Just got done posting in another thread about the AR-7. Granted, it was an old thread, as is this one, and I apologize for digging this one up again as well, but I wanted to share some info regarding the jamming issue.
Go to this thread to catch what I wrote; http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=15375 It will be the 7th posting in that thread.
Go to this thread to catch what I wrote; http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=15375 It will be the 7th posting in that thread.
Last edited:
BHP FAN
Member
I've had the Armalite,the Charter Arms and the Henry over the years,and all were fine for the intended purpose. They fit in a day pack, they float, they assemble quickly with just a little practice,and they allow you to carry...well,not a ''rifle'' really...more of a shoulder stocked .22 pistol with a longish barrel, really. Anyhow a compact portable little unit that stores unobtrusively under a Jeep or canoe seat,or in a daypack.
I bought a Henry a couple of years ago. It runs well with any high speed ammo but did require a trip back to the factory for the worst trigger pull I've ever experienced. Their customer service is above reproach.
I am not able to shoot this gun accurately enough to use in a survival situation, due to it's extreme light weight. It is a fun novelty gun for plinking off of the deck so I keep it for that reason.
For a survival situation while hiking, I carry my M6 Scout. It may not float, but I can shoot it accurately.
I am not able to shoot this gun accurately enough to use in a survival situation, due to it's extreme light weight. It is a fun novelty gun for plinking off of the deck so I keep it for that reason.
For a survival situation while hiking, I carry my M6 Scout. It may not float, but I can shoot it accurately.
salvo
Member
My first rifle that I bought myself was a Charter Arms in the mid 70's, I think it was $75.00 or so. I shot the crap out of that rifle and still have it and it's always been reliable and plenty accurate, must have shot at least 200 black birds and a bunch of jacks with it.
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