AR hates Tula
- Thread starter speaksoftly
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speaksoftly
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The upper is an M&P which, if it's like mine, comes standard with a chrome lined barrel.
I kind of thought about this after my last post. Although I still subscribe to the line of thought that an AR should be able to run any sort of ammo, but as a practical matter, brass cased M193 is getting pretty cheap and you'll have the brass left over. Whether you choose to consider the rifle to be "broken" is obviously a matter of opinion. If it won't run steel and you don't want to mess with it, stick with better ammo. The difference in cost isn't as big as it was a year ago.
I've been shooting Silver Bear 62gr HPs for a while now, because they are so cheap. Recently, in a fit of boredom, I ordered 1000 of the Varmint Nightmare 55gr HPs from Midsouth for around $90. Total time to process the brass in load 1000 rounds in my progressive press was around six hours. Since I already had the brass, total cost was under $200.
I've been shooting Silver Bear 62gr HPs for a while now, because they are so cheap. Recently, in a fit of boredom, I ordered 1000 of the Varmint Nightmare 55gr HPs from Midsouth for around $90. Total time to process the brass in load 1000 rounds in my progressive press was around six hours. Since I already had the brass, total cost was under $200.
Evil Monkey
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http://ar15barrels.com/data/223vs556.pdf
Note "C" and "D".
Consider that other notable firearms like the m249 SAW have even larger chamber tolerances than rifles. All designed to fire the same 5.56mm nato cartridge.
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benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Be aware that too heavy a buffer can *cause* an AR to malfunction with Wolf, because Wolf .223 is loaded on the light side compared to most Western ammo. As a result, you get less vigorous cycling, and if the buffer is too heavy then you can have issues with short cycling.
FlyinBryan
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the op already stated that it is an m&p, so doesnt that eliminate the 5.56 in a 223?
arent all m&p's chambered for 5.56?
arent all m&p's chambered for 5.56?
d2wing
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Since the extractor is pulling chunks ot of the rim, you need a heavier buffer to slow extraction as TonyA said and possibly a stronger buffer spring, and for sure an extractor upgrade like BCM.
As stated a stronger spring can cause short stroking. Some of us have been down this road before.
As stated a stronger spring can cause short stroking. Some of us have been down this road before.
wally
Member
Something is wrong with his gun, get it fixed. If an AR runs with brass but not steel it has no margin for error for when things get rough under field conditions.
My pair of S&W M&P ARs have never shot anything but steel cased ammo and have never had an issue.
My pair of S&W M&P ARs have never shot anything but steel cased ammo and have never had an issue.
W.E.G.
Member
Let's see.
There is something "wrong" with the rifle because it won't cycle crappy ammo.
I find it a lot easier to get rid of the crappy ammo, rather than get rid of an otherwise perfectly good gun.
Call me a loon.
There is something "wrong" with the rifle because it won't cycle crappy ammo.
I find it a lot easier to get rid of the crappy ammo, rather than get rid of an otherwise perfectly good gun.
Call me a loon.
Hmmm. My Colt AR-15A2 shoots steel-cased Wolf fine. Still, some guns just dislike certain kinds of ammunition. Keep your AR, just shoot it with ammo it likes. If you want an inexpensive gun that can shoot steel-cased .223 without a hiccup, plunk down $350.00 for a Saiga.
mstirton
Member
Tula sucks. Even for steel cased ammo. SILVER BEAR will work and give better groups when it does so it is well worth the extra dollar a box. 2 of my ARs cycle Tula ok (1/5fte/short stroke), 1 AR (PWS piston) will choke on about 1/3, and I never bothered trying it in the LaRue stealth (which short strokes Silver Bear) and don't care since that rifle is for slower, long distance shooting anyway. The 3 16" ARs all work perfectly with Silver Bear or brass (SA, Prvi, 193, 855, etc)
Yeah, I've had good luck with Silver Bear too. Even some rifles that choked on Wolf and Tula ran Silver Bear. Just be aware that the coating on these is very susceptible to corrosion. I usually leave it in the box it came in, within the plastic bag, until I'm ready to burn it up.
When I was at the Knob Creek machinegun shoot last month I watched two guys trying to shoot Tula out of a couple of AR's. They had malfunctions over and over again not able to get more than a few rounds off before they were pounding at their rifles. Finally they just gave up.
RhinoDefense
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I don't understand why shooters insist on purchasing crap, steel cased ammunition. I don't understand why shooters purchase a $1,000 weapon and run the cheapest damn ammo through their gun they can get their hands on. Quality costs money. If you want quality for an affordable price, then handload your own ammo.
I'll tell ya why people use cheap crap ammo in $1000 guns.
because practice costs money and a lot of practice costs a lot of money and not everybody has the luxury of time and space to reload.
Hell, if somebody made $5.00 a box .243 steel case ammo I would be shooting that in my Model 70 Featherweight instead of Factory Winchester and Remington bought on sale @ $10-$20 a box.
because practice costs money and a lot of practice costs a lot of money and not everybody has the luxury of time and space to reload.
Hell, if somebody made $5.00 a box .243 steel case ammo I would be shooting that in my Model 70 Featherweight instead of Factory Winchester and Remington bought on sale @ $10-$20 a box.
Evil, I'm really not looking to turn this into an argument, but spreading misinformation isn't good. I looked at the info that you linked to and yes, you have the info right there in front of you. If you look at all of the chamber dimensions upon which you rest your argument, you will find that the difference between the 5.56 chamber and .223 chamber is not greater than 2/1000ths of an inch. The only significant difference, as I have said and was confirmed by YOUR information, is in the leade and the throat angle. "C" only has a difference of 2/1000ths of an inch and "D" differs by 7/10,000ths. Come on. There is more slop than that between two rifles off of the same assembly line.
Again, the sticking cases is NOT a matter of it being a 5.56 vs a .223 chamber. And we aren't talking machine guns either, which btw differ more in headspace and throat than anything else. They leave the headspace loose on machine guns for reliability reasons.
Again, the sticking cases is NOT a matter of it being a 5.56 vs a .223 chamber. And we aren't talking machine guns either, which btw differ more in headspace and throat than anything else. They leave the headspace loose on machine guns for reliability reasons.
OpelBlitz
Member
Onmilo said:
This.
possum
Member
my question is what guns are you guys running and having issues with?
In my expereince i will not run steel cased in any carbine at a course. however small training and or practice sessions i have no issue with it. MY BCM runs steel no problem.
My first ar was a bushmaster and it would run steel no problem. the ar that i just sold was a bushmaster that would not run steel cased ammo.
In my expereince i will not run steel cased in any carbine at a course. however small training and or practice sessions i have no issue with it. MY BCM runs steel no problem.
My first ar was a bushmaster and it would run steel no problem. the ar that i just sold was a bushmaster that would not run steel cased ammo.
possum
Member
when you shoot 20-30k rds and take a couple classes a year to stay sharp, to be at the tip of the Countries spear, (out of your own pocket) has to do something, lord knows the military doesn't give use the amount of rounds and training that i feel i need.
Hey, I forgot to mention this, but the Hornady steel cased training ammo seems to run pretty good too and I've seen it on sale at a few places for prices that compare that of bear and tula ammo. The Hornady stuff feels like shooting the "real" stuff to me.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Reloading in volume takes a significant capital outlay, a pretty good chunk of time that I unfortunately don't have, a learning curve, and still has a hard time competing with sub-25-cent-per-round training ammo.
If I am shooting for groups at range, I'll shoot something better, but I can afford to shoot twice as often if I'm shooting steel case. If one's rifle works with it, there's no reason not to use it for training, USPSA-style carbine, etc.
FlyinBryan
Member
true. i started with a progressive press with auto indexing, auto priming, auto powder drop, and automatic case feeder.
you also have to buy a tumbler, powder scale, case trimmer, crimped primer swage or cutter, tumbler media, and i also ended up buying a single stage partner press for misc. tasks, and a kinetic bullet puller.
worth noting (probably common among reloaders, and kind of funny) when i was getting set up i bought brass in a few calibers. new, in 100 rnd bags, and iver never bought any more. i always seem to come back from the range with 100 more than i fired, lol.
on the positive side, you get legit sub moa ammo with rediculous low component costs (like 1000rds of brass cased ammo with very high grade components, hodgdon extreme extruded powders, i like h322, hornady or lc bullets, cci primers)
1000rds for around 150 bux.
as said above, there is a pretty good initial cost, but i enjoy it. its fun to bring a part of my hobby inside on cold rainy days.
Because after approximately 10,000 rounds of run of the mill steel cased ammunition vs run of the mill brass cased ammunition, the savings will get you another $1000 rifle......or another 5000 rounds of ammunition....can't understand it meself, either
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