Ran Out of Scope Elevation

[Jaywalker]

Details available if anyone needs them, but I've run out of scope elevation with my new Winchester Model 70 Classic LT. It shoots too low, and I've changed scopes (no change), rings (no change), reversed the two-piece Weaver mounts (no change), and shimmed the rear. The shim helped, but I'm still bottomed out. I have three questions.

1. What's the next step? Is there a standard way to shim a mount, maybe, or is there a fair-priced elevation adjustable mount? (I used B-Square for my air rifle, but I've seen some unenthusiastic comments about them here recently.)

2. What are the chances that my rifle will ever shoot well, given that the barrel doesn't seem to be aligned with the receiver?

3. Is this a warranty issue, or is this relatively standard and I'm expected to suck it up?

Jaywalker

 

[P95Carry]

Can't comment re the particular weapon but ... have had to shim ..... hmmm .... two guns IIRC. One took very little, and other took a lot.

''Little'' equates to a few layers of cooking aluminum foil ..... the other ..... that was a shaped piece of approx (guessing here) 20g aluminum sheet... maybe 22g

How much did you add? Maybe some more would do ... main thing I had to remember with mine was the potential increase in parallax but .. all worked out OK.

Other thing .. I once had a scope that would not set .... tried shimming but that so extreme I suspected the scope ... and, yep ... scope was a lemon ...... used another and all was OK.

Just some 0.02

 

[Hkmp5sd]

You can use shims to get the scope back in range. A shim inserted between the rear scope base and receiver will raise the point of impact. One under the front scope base will lower it.

As a rule of thumb, a .005" shim will provide 3.5 MOAs, .010" = 7.0 MOA, etc.

 

[Jim K]

You can shim one mount or, to make a neater job, you can take metal off the bottom of the other. You can also have a gunsmith try several sizes of mounts in various combinations.

I think P95carry has a good point about the possibility that the scope is a lemon; I would try to check the rifle out with another scope.

As to warranty, if the rifle is new, call Winchester and see what they say. There should be a customer service number in the owners manual. It is true that factories won't guarantee accuracy, but your experience would seem to be beyond just group size.

Incidentally, how does it group? It may be worth working with.

Jim

 

[larryw]

I've had this problem with a gun and used the Burris Zee Rings to solve the problem. They have an insert that allows you to mechanically zero a rifle in the rings (offset inserts). In my gun, it was shooting a few feet off at 50 yards. Using the inserts, I was able to mount the scope with the adjustments zeroed. Solid mounts that work very well.

http://www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/...ector=all_products&search_keywords=burris+zee

 

[Jaywalker]

P95Carry:

How much did you add?

The shim I mentioned is the one shim a gunsmith gave me, so I can't say precisely how thick it is. It's thicker than aluminum foil, however, and I put it beneath the rear ring.

scope was a lemon ...... used another and all was OK

I thought so, too, and the new scope I mentioned didn't fix it either.

Jim Keenan, I'll give them a call. It seems to me that with no iron sights on the rifle, they should agree that a scope should at least get to the point of aim. I can't say how it groups yet, but I can't believe it will be acceptable, though.

larryw, funny, but I'm using the Burris rings I just got from Midway. These are regular, not the "Signature Zee," however. What are "solid mounts?"

Jaywalker

 

[larryw]

Solid mounts are ones that don't move under recoil.

 

[wireless]

JW,

How low is "too low"? You talkin a few inches or a couple of feet? If you are within a few inches, you might try one of the long-range type bases on your rifle. I use one on my 308 that has 20moa built into it. This would give you an additional 20 inches of lift at 100 yds. Leupold, Badger, and other companies make these mounts with 5, 10, 15, or 20 moa of elevation. I am using one from Ken Farrell, Inc. that runs about $50. I believer the Leupold is a 10moa and runs about $25-$30. Just a suggestions. Good Luck!

 

[Jaywalker]

wireless, I'd say 10 or 20 inches at 50 yards, but that's just a guess. I used my new Leupold bore sighter to crank in elevation rather than counting the clicks. I ran out of elevation just before the crosshairs and the point of impact came together. With full elevation cranked in, I'm probably an inch low at 50 yards. (When I get adequate elevation control, I'll take it out to 100 yards.)

Can you explain a little more about "long-range" type bases, please? Maybe a couple of model names I could check out? Thanks.

Also, is there any point to trying to make this particular rifle shoot? Is it even possible for a rifle that's that far off (barrel/receiver) to group well?

Jaywalker

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Is it even possible for a rifle that's that far off (barrel/receiver) to group well?

Take it to the range and see how tight the groups are, regardless of where it is hitting the target. Don't try to compensate for not hitting dead center. If you can get tight groups and the only problem is the point of impact is off, it is worth working with.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Back to basics? Was the scope centered before it was mounted on the rifle? If it was used on another rifle prior to being mounted on the current Winchester, it may have been close to bottomed out and needs to be brought up before remounting another gun. Just a guess.

 

[wireless]

JW,

Like hkmp5sd said, if it will group then it may be worth putting some time and $$ into it. Take it to the range and shoot if for group. Keep your point of aim consistent regardless of where the bullets are striking the target. If the groups are acceptable and the point of impact can be reasonably corrected, then you might invest in one of the long range (tapered) bases. Here are some links to these type baes:

Ken Farrell, Inc.
These come in 0moa up to 30moa versions

Leupold
The long range base is 15moa (1/4 degree)

Now, if the rifle will not group AND/OR if the point of impact is still too far from point of aim to correct it, then you have to decide if it is worth the time and $$ to send it back for warranty repair. I would assume that you would want to send it back, because you will take a financial beating selling a defective rifle or you will really make someone mad when you dump it off on them.

Hope this helps you with your dilemma.

Troy

 

[Jaywalker]

Er...um...gee. False alarm. I used the Weaver 46 mounts front and back. You can't do that with an M70, you need the higher 47 at the rear. My only excuse is the print was really, really small on the 46 packaging and I didn't see the mouse print that said "front sight mount."

I took it back to the place I bought it from and they were willing to send it back to Winchester, but wanted to look at it first. They saw immediately that the scope was pointing up, instead of along the barrel, then suggested I use the required 47 mount in the rear. It's now colimated and I'll take it to the range tomorrow. Except for the embarassment, this's a major reason to shop locally instead of online.

Thanks,
Jaywalker

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Not a false alarm. A real problem that turned out to have a very easy fix.

 

[P95Carry]

Sounds like a good result Jay ....... I have done similar things. Doncha just hate that ''mouse print'' ........ hardly ever read it properly.

 

[wireless]

Glad to hear it was a simple fix. Oh well, it made for good conversation anyway. This is how we all learn. Good luck with your range session. Let us know how it performs.

 

[Jaywalker]

I'll do a (slightly) longer range report next week in the Rifle Forum, but I went to the range today for a brief sighting in session, and the rifle performed well and accurately.

It's a new Winchester Model 70 Classic LT in .300 Winchester Magnum. I had previously had the trigger weight reduced to about four pounds but haven't worked with the creep, of which there is a little. It has a new production Weaver K-4 (fixed four power) scope mounted on it, in Burris rings, and (now) the right mounts. I wore a PAST Recoil Shield to reduce recoil effect.

After adjusting for zero, I fired two three-shot groups, the first with Remington Core-Lokt Express 180 grain (standard) factory ammo, and the second with Federal Premium 180 grain, the kind with the Nosler Partition bullet.

Both groups were good, with the Remington ammo going into one-and-one-eighth inches, about a half inch high at 100 yards. The Federal ammo was a smidge under one inch, call it 31/32-inch, about an inch and a half high.

I'm pleased, but I may hunt with the PAST shield...

Jaywalker

 

[kimbernut]

Jaywalker ,shims are unfortunate but absolutely necessary in some cases. I have had to shim scope bases on two rifles;One at .025" and one at .040". In two other rifles I have had to go with one ring high/one ring extra high and the other -one ring medium ht. /one ring high. All rifles mentioned above are 1moa or better shooters. Hope this helps. kimbernut

 

[kentucky bucky]

Sounds like me........put it together first and then read the Dee-reck-shuns.