Range Brass and the 308 Winchester

[Charlie98]

I guess I’ll try to make M79 instead (just a bit less than M80).

I see what you did there... Truthfully, unless you are shooting beyond 200M, there is no reason to load blasting ammos at the top of data.

I would toss PPU and crimped primer brass in the junk bucket -- aint worth the effort.

On the contrary, I've made PPU (Prvi white box, not the commercial blue/white box stuff...) my primary ammo stash for my M1a. I've found it's less trouble than once-fired LC, is at least as consistent as some of the others, and does not have crimped primers. Truthfully, I'm done with LC... it's been nothing but a pain in the bahookie, and the garbage they are selling as ammo or components leaves a bit to be desired. Just my personal experience.

As far as removing primer crimps, it's not that big of a deal with the right tool.

 

[AJC1]

I see what you did there... Truthfully, unless you are shooting beyond 200M, there is no reason to load blasting ammos at the top of data.



On the contrary, I've made PPU (Prvi white box, not the commercial blue/white box stuff...) my primary ammo stash for my M1a. I've found it's less trouble than once-fired LC, is at least as consistent as some of the others, and does not have crimped primers. Truthfully, I'm done with LC... it's been nothing but a pain in the bahookie, and the garbage they are selling as ammo or components leaves a bit to be desired. Just my personal experience.

As far as removing primer crimps, it's not that big of a deal with the right tool.

I'm curious who makes the best military brass. I'm thinking imi or pmc would be better than most... I'm also inclined to believe that getting the brass new solves a lot of issues that come up....

 

[Kaldor]

I’ve been tinkering with my 308 more lately and have a fair supply of range brass to reload. A lot of it is Winchester brass but I’ve seen Norma, IMI, PMC, PPU, FC, RP, and a few stamped 7.62 NATO.

I’ve heard the NATO cases are thicker and could lead to pressure problems. Is this true or just another rumor people say?

I have about 4000 pieces of it and LC 7.62 brass is a good deal heavier than any of the commercial offerings but has less case capacity. When loading this brass I subtract 2gr off the max of any load data for commercial brass. I will work up to that max and usually beyond, but I always start a bit low. I have pushed it pretty hard over the years, but LC is some tough stuff and stands up to it really well.

FWIW, you can make LC brass shoot really well, but it does require some work. Youll obviously need to remove the crimps via swaging or cutting. I give it a quick tumble in SSTL media for 30 minutes and anneal it before that first sizing. That keeps me form scratching up my dies, and annealing reduces any springback I might see post sizing. Sizing can be a bear, so what Ive done in the past is double size it without the expander mandrel in. You can do this just by bringing your sizing die up a full turn, size to cam over, then full length size again bumping the shoulders back. I just use lanolin/iso homebrew as lube. Then it gets a thorough tumble in SSTL for 3 hours and left to dry a couple of days. After that I size the necks with an expanding mandrel from Sinclair. After thats all done I trim it in the Giraud, and deburr the inside of the flash holes. I have considered neck turning some of it which would help a considerable amount, but my OCD would require that I turn all 4000 pieces I have to make it uniform.

 

[Charlie98]

I'm curious who makes the best military brass. I'm thinking imi or pmc would be better than most... I'm also inclined to believe that getting the brass new solves a lot of issues that come up....

I'm actually a big, big fan of PMC brass, in pretty much any flavor... to include commercial (PMC) brass, and surplus (PMJ, PS, et al.) I rank it right up there with Stairway to Heaven. I don't have experience with IMI, but I understand it's pretty good, too.

Pickup brass is nice in some instances, but if I'm shooting... and, more importantly, loading... for accuracy, I'm starting with a single lot of virgin brass. That is not to say you can't make pickup brass work for you, I'm just saying it can require some work to get it right, and maybe a little luck, too.

 

[DMW1116]

Now that this batch is clean and sorted, I'll see how many I have of each kind. I know I have just under 40 of the Norma 308 cases, and about 45 each of the GGG and IMI 7.62 cases. I plan to save those for a different load. I have a handful of PMC cases and a couple other containers I need to check and add up. I'd like to load up all the remaining Amax bullets I have but I don't know if I have enough brass that's not 7.62.

 

[AJC1]

Now that this batch is clean and sorted, I'll see how many I have of each kind. I know I have just under 40 of the Norma 308 cases, and about 45 each of the GGG and IMI 7.62 cases. I plan to save those for a different load. I have a handful of PMC cases and a couple other containers I need to check and add up. I'd like to load up all the remaining Amax bullets I have but I don't know if I have enough brass that's not 7.62.

I bought 60 rounds of factory Norma just for the cases....

 

[DMW1116]

Norma brass is my favorite for 223. I had 60 cases of it but they’re either loaded or in my twice fired bin waiting on the others to catch up.

 

[Kaldor]

I'm curious who makes the best military brass. I'm thinking imi or pmc would be better than most... I'm also inclined to believe that getting the brass new solves a lot of issues that come up....

If you are shooting from a autoloading rifle, its Lake City. All day, everyday.
The case capacity is lower on 7.62 which will hurt you if hunting velocity. 5.56 has the same capacity as commercial brass.
The case heads are hard as a coffin nail, which means it will stand up the abuse of an autoloading rifle and not have near as many issues with primer pockets loosening up.
I very seldom trash out LC brass until I see neck splits and some of my cases have seen a dozen loadings.

 

[AJC1]

If you are shooting from a autoloading rifle, its Lake City. All day, everyday.
The case capacity is lower on 7.62 which will hurt you if hunting velocity. 5.56 has the same capacity as commercial brass.
The case heads are hard as a coffin nail, which means it will stand up the abuse of an autoloading rifle and not have near as many issues with primer pockets loosening up.
I very seldom trash out LC brass until I see neck splits and some of my cases have seen a dozen loadings.

So imi when you tested it wasn't as good...

 

[DMW1116]

I sorted through my supply of 308 brass and found 8 different head stamps to test:
Norma
RP
FC
PPU
PMC
Hornady
Winchester
GFL

All are stamped 308. None appear to be crimped, though one had a suspicious line so I did a decrimping operation anyway. I’ll make up a batch of test loads from each brass type and see if there are any issues. Charge weight of CFE 223 is 1.2 grains below Hornadys max and was developed in the Winchester brass. These are range pickups or were fired once from my rifle. Some have ejector smears or slight burrs from firing. I know some were fired from semiautomatic rifles, either an AR10 or M1A style.

I also have another few dozen cases of 7.62 brass with IMI, LC, GGG, or PSD head stamps. All appear to have crimps and are either marked 7.62 or the NATO mark, brand , and year. I’ll keep these for another load.

 

[Hikingman]

If I look down and see ANY .308 at the range that's not steel case, I'll be surprised.

 

[thump_rrr]

I’ve been tinkering with my 308 more lately and have a fair supply of range brass to reload. A lot of it is Winchester brass but I’ve seen Norma, IMI, PMC, PPU, FC, RP, and a few stamped 7.62 NATO.

I’ve heard the NATO cases are thicker and could lead to pressure problems. Is this true or just another rumor people say?

The advantage to the NATO cases is that you will need less powder to get to the same pressure.

I’ll be honest and tell you that every time I’ve tried to save money by not using the best quality brass available I’ve spent the money on more bullets, primers and powder trying to get my desired results.

Unless you have a minimum of 100 cases from the same lot with less than 1gr of water weight between them I wouldn’t waste my time trying to develop a load.

You can buy 100 pieces of Lapua 308 Win. brass for $85.50 in stock.

 

[Kaldor]

So imi when you tested it wasn't as good...

IMI might be the equal, but we havent seen decades of use for IMI brass like we have for LC. Once it has a track record that long, then I think we can judge it fairly.

I have a few hundred pieces of IMI that Ive picked up here and there, and I mixed it in with my commercial brass that I use for blaster ammo. I have at least 10000 pieces of LC 223, and probably 4000 pieces of LC 308 that is specifically set aside for specific loadings.
I would honestly say the biggest weakness of LC brass is it availability. As the military is scrapping alot of it now last I heard. I had an opportunity to buy 1k pieces of LC 7.62 brass and I jumped on it a couple of years ago as every processor I know says that its getting hard and harder to obtain.

 

[DMW1116]

I don’t know how accurate they’ll be but they sure are purty. This is a mixed batch of brass head stamps to see how they all work together.

 

[Varminterror]

The advantage to the NATO cases is that you will need less powder to get to the same pressure.

True, but also bringing forth the consequence that lower powder charge is still less potential energy, and at the same pressure standard, the smaller charge yields less velocity. For example, I used to electively shoot SUPER thin (older) FC brass, because I could get extra powder in the case and pick up extra speed. It didn’t last as long, but I wasn’t in the business of making brass last forever, I was simply trying to get the most range out of my loads.

I’ll be honest and tell you that every time I’ve tried to save money by not using the best quality brass available I’ve spent the money on more bullets, primers and powder trying to get my desired results.

LC and FC brass are thicker than Win, hornady and lapua

win is thinnest with most case capacity

FC is soft, primer pockets go bad soonest (3-5 firings)

LC is hard, tough brass

many 308 win branded cases have significant case capacity differences (so does 556)

a max load in Winchester or hornady 308 is likely over max pressure in LC or FC brass

the variance between brands in terms of volume, neck wall thickness, neck tension, etc is enough to notice on target (any cartridge honestly)

if you are shooting mild loads of plinking ammo or just want to hit a deer vitals at 150 yds and in, you won’t notice a difference, but do pay attention if you are trying to hot rod (not recommended) or Attempting to maximize accuracy

This is my experience, ymmv

When I quit using mixed range brass my reloaded ammunition got a lot better.
Case volume is one aspect another is neck thickness varies enough to effect the bullet hold and lastly I just hate sorting through all the headstamps.

^^^ All of this above… Ditto.

Personally, I pick up range brass to convert to dollars, which I then convert to quality brass.

 

[DMW1116]

You all may be onto something. This is not a high volume gun so 100 rounds will last me a while (with emphasis on the h). Just having to roll the little weighted ball bearing over to the “4” slot on my Lee beam scale hurts a little.

I see primed 308 brass pretty regularly, all of the same make. Has anyone tried it?

 

[DMW1116]

My accuracy standards are not terribly high. This is a budget AR10 with a $200 scope. I can’t expect stellar accuracy with every load. I am tickled I found the load with the 175 grain SMK that shoots about 0.75 MOA consistently. I need to stretch it out though. The range I normally use only has a 200 yard max. That’s typically a good match with my ability.

 

[DMW1116]

I tried all the different brasses in a big group. All 8 shots went into about 2.25” at 100 yards. It’s like I rezeroed the scope in the middle of testing. One group of three and one group of five about an inch apart. Unfortunately I did not keep track of which shot went with which head stamp. I’ll load up all the Norma brass and try a few. Then I’ll see about opening the next box of projectiles.

 

[DMW1116]

Maybe useful, maybe not, but I just remembered the two apparent groups had a different ejection pattern. The three around the bullseye ejected about 4 o'clock while the others that grouped low and left all sent the cases a little forward about 2 o'clock.