Range idiocy - yet another example

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K

K3

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I went to the outdoor range SUnday morning to shoot some handloads I had worked up in a number of rifles. The range happened to have a varmint rifle contest. Had I known that, I'd have brought more ammo than the load development stuff for it. Different story though. :(

Anyhow, most shooters used rimfires, and the 50 yard targets were used. Centerfires used 100 yards. So..... 2 benches down from me, a kid probably 13 is with his granfather and another older gentleman. There was a ceasefire and about 6 or 8 people downrange setting up targets. The kid had shouldered the rifle and was pointing it downrange. A nice modified 10/22 I might add.

I said to the kid ' Hey buddy, you might not want to handle that while folks are downrange'. The grandfather then said in a pissy voice, 'it's open'. Well, irritated, I narrowed my eyes, lowered my voice, and simply said 'Don't matter'. The kid didn't handle the rifle when the range was cold after that. The grandfather gave me a few go to hell looks after that. No skin off my back. The kid OTOH helped me pick up some of my brass that ejected a good ways about an hour later. I told him 'Thank you sir'. Nice kid. Grandpa was a first class prick though.

Funny thing was, the range officer reminded another fella not 1 minute after my exchange with grampa to step away from the bench when people were downrange. I know grampa heard that.

Normally at this range, there's not much in the way of safety issues.
 
I've found that I see more safety violations with older men than with the younger ones. It's almost unbelieveable, the number of guys in their 60s to their 80s who are not only unaware of the muzzles, but who will handle the guns without checking and clearing the chambers, and put their fingers on the triggers...and pull them...while they sweep the room.

Makes a body downright nervous.
 
some folks take correcting their kids too personal.like it makes them a failure if a kid makes a mistake. see it on sports fields a lot.shame too hurts the kids. i tell folks where my kid can hear em that if she crosses the line they have my blessing to tan her bottom. so fars shes only had 2 spankings in her life. and we both hope the only 2
 
QUOTE: "I've found that I see more safety violations with older men than with the younger ones."

Familiarity breeds contempt?

I remember an incident that happened up at Rampart Range (Colorado Springs) guy showed up & was unpacking his rifle range was cold so a few people started down range to change targets. The guy W/ the rifle looks at the guy stepping in front of the firing line. & in the MOST sarcastic " you are a dumbass unworthy to breathe my air" tone I've ever heard says " It'd be nice if I could clear my weapon! " the unworthy party simply stepped back & said "please do"

Ok I know its a good safety rule but come on. Why (number 1) did he feel justified in handling a firearm on a cold range & how ( number 2) did the rifle get from the car to the range un cleared ? ( Let alone to the car ? Let alone its illegal to transport a chambered rifle in a vehicle in Colorado.
& (number 3) Who takes that tone W/ an ARMED stranger?
 
some folks take correcting their kids too personal.like it makes them a failure if a kid makes a mistake. see it on sports fields a lot.shame too hurts the kids. i tell folks where my kid can hear em that if she crosses the line they have my blessing to tan her bottom. so fars shes only had 2 spankings in her life. and we both hope the only 2
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I've never had a problem correcting others kids when their parents (etc) won't. I'll be polite about it as long as I can too. If a parent responds negatively, I'll tell them that I will correct them as well if they like. The look on their face is priceless. Normally I don't bother with that as kids being kids is not a big deal. I have an 18 month old little man that is very enthusiastic about anything he does. Good kid but strong willed at times, so I know how kids can be. At the range though, I tolerate no shenanigans from kids or adults.

I was on the muzzle end of a ND from a Browning BAR in .270. The guy was cycling it or something and BOOM! He was in the doorway of the camper and shot through the wall. I was messing with a jeep and using some ether to get it going. I thought I had blown up something. 15 feet away from me. The bullet passed within 5 feet of his 2 young grandsons. The boys' dad was pissed. After a while, I felt bad for the old guy. He had mised 2 nice bucks earlier in the day. His Swarovski was evidently needing some adjustment. After that, he leans the high dollar rig against a jeep in camp. It falls on the scope. Naturally. Then the ND. Nobody wanted to hunt with him anymore, and you could tell he felt really bad. My brother ended up taking him and he did get his deer. He's never been back down to the lease though, and that's OK with me. I have to say that being on the business end of a .270 was eye-opening to say the least. Suprisingly, my underoos did not need to be changed.

Safety. Safety. Safety.
 
Perhaps it would have been wiser to politely bring the older gentleman aside and make the suggestion to him instead of pointing the boy's error out yourself. Safety is everyone's responsibility but the boy is his responsibility and he might not have taken well to you one upping him so to speak.
 
People seem to get the idea of "well, ive got a gun, so I can do anything I want". You attempt to correct thier behavior, even in a nice way (ROs would know this to an art if they want to keep people coming back), they take personal offense b/c you have threatened what they think is thier right to be "untouchable", a sense of overinflation b/c they own a GUN! Armed society is polite society, but depending entirely on the person. Im going to make a thread as asked above b/c im an RO and I see more threads like this, they make me worry about losing shooters for fear of angry corrections, instead of good constructive corrections (BTW, you did a great job above K3, you rose above and didnt get sucked into a match with the guy, that takes some patience!).
 
Perhaps it would have been wiser to politely bring the older gentleman aside and make the suggestion to him instead of pointing the boy's error out yourself. Safety is everyone's responsibility but the boy is his responsibility and he might not have taken well to you one upping him so to speak.
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Perhaps he needs to cowboy up and accept his lumps. The boy took it far better than grandpa did. There's hope for the boy.

And I'm not going to have a drawn out conversation with grandpa when the kid has the rifle shouldered and pointed downrange while people were putting up targets.

Your solution is wrong IMO, because it would be treating the boy like he was a little child. It would be going around him or over him. I treated a 13 year old like an adult and politely admonished him for a safety violation. He was old enough to handle it and obviously did so. Kudos to the boy.

Grampa needs to get over himself and grow a pair. If I 'f' up at the range and somebody tells me about it, I take my lumps like a man. When I get my son involved in shooting, and he does something that I don't catch, I have no problem with another adult correcting him, as long as he's not a rude and nasty SOB. The correction will still be taken by my son, of course.

Hell, grampa was standing right there with him while he had it shouldered, pointing out features! What good would it have done to pull the old coot aside?
 
I would no sooner discipline or instruct a minor on the range without the guardian's permission than I would in a supermarket. That is the guardian's responsibility and I am not about to overstep that boundry unless it is critical and there is no other way. Treating the child as an adult is fine but discounting the parent's authority in the process is a sure way to piss them off. You could have easily said "Excuse me would you hold on a minute" to the child and then turned to the gentleman and asked for a word with him to explain your concern.
 
I would no sooner discipline or instruct a minor on the range without the guardian's permission than I would in a supermarket. That is the guardian's responsibility and I am not about to overstep that boundry unless it is critical and there is no other way. Treating the child as an adult is fine but discounting the parent's authority in the process is a sure way to piss them off. You could have easily said "Excuse me would you hold on a minute" to the child and then turned to the gentleman and asked for a word with him to explain your concern.
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The authority in question was encouraging the behavior. I'm not terribly worried about pissing others off. That's life.

So, in your scenario, I allow the child to continue pointing it downrange while the old man and I have a discussion? A rifle is pointed at people downrange. I prefer not to allow that to remain the case for one second longer than absolutely necessary.

Obviously we have different opinions on this and are at an impasse. I will do things as I always have, and if people are too damn sensitive about things, then that's their problem. I was polite to the kid, and he put the rifle down. Grampa's feelings on the matter are irrelevant. What makes you think he would have responded any better to 'pulling him aside and explaining my concerns'? It's been my experience that he probably would have responded in exactly the same manner.
 
I would no sooner discipline or instruct a minor on the range without the guardian's permission than I would in a supermarket. That is the guardian's responsibility and I am not about to overstep that boundry unless it is critical and there is no other way. Treating the child as an adult is fine but discounting the parent's authority in the process is a sure way to piss them off. You could have easily said "Excuse me would you hold on a minute" to the child and then turned to the gentleman and asked for a word with him to explain your concern.
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I feel exactly the same-

And when, in a supermarket a child is endangering someone other than himself and his parent, I will correct him and the parent.

Just as I would on the range.

Although I may not have any responsibility to raise the child, I will not watch them hurt someone else because the parent doesn't feel like disciplining their child.
 
If someone is committing safety violations, it's everyone's responsibility to correct the behavior. No reason to let possible 'hurt feelings' get in the way when someone could end up dead. For me to jump in, it has to be a 'real' violation, not some nit-picky thing the range has come up with... but handling a firearm while people are downrange would sure as heck qualify! Not that I condone being rude, or screaming at some kid who probably didn't know better, but a gentle correction is certainly called for. Consequences be darned, I'm not standing by and letting someone get shot.

I've been at the range a couple of times when someone brings their young one out, and it's quite obvious that neither adult nor child have any idea of what they are doing. Often, they even neglect to provide hearing protection for their child. When that happens, I always hand the adult a couple sets of ear plugs (I keep a bag of them in my range stuff). I will sometimes offer to let a child use one of my .22's, if the adult only brought larger calibers firearms. The offer is always to the adult, I don't approach anyone's children without permission.
 
If someone is committing safety violations, it's everyone's responsibility to correct the behavior. No reason to let possible 'hurt feelings' get in the way when someone could end up dead. For me to jump in, it has to be a 'real' violation, not some nit-picky thing the range has come up with... but handling a firearm while people are downrange would sure as heck qualify! Not that I condone being rude, or screaming at some kid who probably didn't know better, but a gentle correction is certainly called for. Consequences be darned, I'm not standing by and letting someone get shot.

I've been at the range a couple of times when someone brings their young one out, and it's quite obvious that neither adult nor child have any idea of what they are doing. Often, they even neglect to provide hearing protection for their child. When that happens, I always hand the adult a couple sets of ear plugs (I keep a bag of them in my range stuff). I will sometimes offer to let a child use one of my .22's, if the adult only brought larger calibers firearms. The offer is always to the adult, I don't approach anyone's children without permission.
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Exactly. I was polite to the young man. I was not rude to the old man, but I'm sure my tone was obvious to him, as I did not think his reply of 'it's open' was a particularly good one.

I like the idea of offering to let others shoot (offer to adult) provided they seem responsible. I really should invest in a 10/22 for this purpose. Well, that and so I can plink all day long for dirt cheap. The extra earplugs are a good idea. I don't see people not using hearing protection very often. Maybe once in the last couple of years.
 
K3 said:
The authority in question was encouraging the behavior. I'm not terribly worried about pissing others off. That's life.

So, in your scenario, I allow the child to continue pointing it downrange while the old man and I have a discussion? A rifle is pointed at people downrange. I prefer not to allow that to remain the case for one second longer than absolutely necessary.

Obviously we have different opinions on this and are at an impasse. I will do things as I always have, and if people are too damn sensitive about things, then that's their problem. I was polite to the kid, and he put the rifle down. Grampa's feelings on the matter are irrelevant. What makes you think he would have responded any better to 'pulling him aside and explaining my concerns'? It's been my experience that he probably would have responded in exactly the same manner.
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No. As I said, I would first address the child and have him hold off on handling the rifle while I consult with the adult and express my concerns. He was the one that needed to be reminded of the safety and it was him that should have taught that safety to the child unless he asked for help. If it was an immediate threat and you had no other choice but to disregard the gentleman and step in then do it but a polite apology and explanation are in order afterward.

"Obviously we have different opinions on this and are at an impasse. I will do things as I always have, and if people are too damn sensitive about things, then that's their problem."

You realize who you sound like there don't you? You are handling my criticism quite similar to how the man in your story handled yours.

I think he may have reacted differently for the very reasons I listed. I can't say if he would or not because I do not know the man and I was not there to witness the incident. This is why I started out my criticism of how you handled the situation with the word "Perhaps." However, you were rude by overstepping his parental boundary and discounting his authority with the child. You can't offend someone and then ask them to do something and expect them to comply. You have to be tactful with criticism.
 
The range I shoot at has the rules posted, so I can always just point to the rules and say "they don't like you to do that." Makes it sound like I'm doing them a favor by keeping them out of trouble with the range. Has worked several times.
 
El Tejon was saying
We need a thread on the best way to correct unsafe range behavior

Probably there is no "best way." While yes, we're dealing with a possible life and death situation, particular situations are different and people are different. Sometimes it's worth yelling about and leaping down somebody's throat. Other times, a smile and a gentle reminder will work.
Marty
 
No. As I said, I would first address the child and have him hold off on handling the rifle while I consult with the adult and express my concerns. He was the one that needed to be reminded of the safety and it was him that should have taught that safety to the child unless he asked for help. If it was an immediate threat and you had no other choice but to disregard the gentleman and step in then do it but a polite apology and explanation are in order afterward.
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I did exactly that with the young man. As soon as I addressed him, grandpa made his smartassed comment. How exactly would I have expressed my concern to one like him? His hostility was the first.

"Obviously we have different opinions on this and are at an impasse. I will do things as I always have, and if people are too damn sensitive about things, then that's their problem."

You realize who you sound like there don't you? You are handling my criticism quite similar to how the man in your story handled yours.
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The difference is, my comments on an internet forum don't have the potential to take lives. His immediate snapback caused me to write him off. Go back to post one to see what I said to the young man.


I think he may have reacted differently for the very reasons I listed. I can't say if he would or not because I do not know the man and I was not there to witness the incident. This is why I started out my criticism of how you handled the situation with the word "Perhaps." However, you were rude by overstepping his parental boundary and discounting his authority with the child. You can't offend someone and then ask them to do something and expect them to comply. You have to be tactful with criticism.
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I didn't offend the young man. I was tactful to him, and he complied. Hell, like I said, he helped me pick up a bunch of .223 brass my peashooter spit out.

I was tactful up until the old man smarted off. Myonly response to him was 'Don't matter'. He knew damn well what I meant and that I wasn't kidding. He never gave me a chance to explain my concerns to him.

I addressed the immediate safety concern to the appropriate person given the circumstances.
 
Safety violations need to be dealt immediately. As long as it is done in a non aggressive or threatening way no apology should be needed. Even when a warning is given less nicely than it could be if the person really did commit a safety violation they should recognize it and be thankful it was pointed out and take it as an opportunity to learn something.

Maybe walk away thinking "I don't ever want to feel that stupid again, I'm going to make sure I do the right thing next time." instead of "he had no right to correct me."

The grandfather should have been the one apologizing and taken the opportunity to reinforce the message to his grandson instead of dismissing it.

I'd be grateful If I or my child are about or likely to do something stupid and someone stepped in.
 
Im looking at buying a .38 Rossi for personal protection and i have heard mixed reviews on this gun. For the price it seems perfect but im not sure all i know is that i dont have alot of money to put into a gun right now.
 
I remember when my Grandfather (WWII Combat Vet) first gave me an M1 Garand that he had bought for me. I had told him about me shooting one at a local rifle range through a club. This was in July. I was in my room a day before Veterans day and I heard him down the hall, which was a complete surprise. He had bought a nice M1 Garand from a gunshow to give to me. The next day (Veterans day) I played hookie from school and we went to the range to fire. During a ceasefire he accidentally crossed the 'red line' and was fixing something from falling and the RO yelled on the Mic then came over to talk to him. The RO (A Korean War vet) and my Garandfather started talking and shared a few laughs.

So yeah, not every old guy is stuck in his ways!
 
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