RANGE REPORT w/Pics. I have a Scope or Rifle Problem... Please Help!

[mickeydim468]

Let me start at the beginning. Originally I bought a Center Point 4-16X40 scope for this Rossi .243 Win. rifle and everything was great. I sighted it in and it was as accurate as could be. Near 1.5-2.0 MOA I could accept that, after all it is for hunting deer and other smallish game. Then I received the S&K scope mount for my M1917 and I took the scope from my .243 and put it on my M1917. Then I took the scope off of my .22lr and put it on my .243 and went to the range. That scope is a 3-9X32 cheapo model that works fine on my .22lr. It didn't work at all and I could only achieve an 8 to 10 inch pattern at 50 yds. So, I went and bought another Center Point scope for the .243 and put the other one back on my .22lr. The Center Point is not the same model as I originally had but it says it's intended for rifles, not just rimfire. It is also a 3-9X32 model.

I took my .243 rifle to the range yesterday, to sight in the new scope. I could not get it to hit center except for two times and even then it was not a repeatable task. I went through 2 1/2 boxes of ammo yesterday trying to get this thing sighted. At today's prices of ammo, that's 40 bucks, and the scope is still not sighted in, to what my expectations would have been!

What my question is, is this...

Do you think it is the scope, or the rifle? What should I do to find out? Could I have developed a problem with the rifle somewhere in the midst of this scope swapping task? I really didn't want to take the scope off my M1917 again because I have it shooting near MOA right now with the larger scope. Should I take this new scope back and get one exactly the same as I have on my M1917? Is there a way to check the rifle without removing the scope from my M1917 or getting a new scope for my .243?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks guys!

Mikey!

P.S.

Below you can see where the shots were hitting. All shots seen below were aimed at the center of the target. As you can see only 2 hit center!

 

[Fred Fuller]

8"X10" at fifty yards definitely says something is wrong. I'd guess it was loose mounts/rings, without evidence of anything more obvious. Make sure all the screws are tight and try again....

lpl

 

[NCsmitty]

I'm guessing that the rifle has the iron sights too.
I would pull the scope off and try a few rounds using the iron sights to prove if it's the rifle or the scope setup at 50 yds.
I think you'll find that it's not the rifle.

NCsmitty

 

[Al Thompson]

If your mounts aren't loose, it's the scope. FWIW, I've had good results with Weaver at the bottom and Wal-Mart is selling Leupolds for 200 bucks or so. Save your money and get a good scope.

 

[surjimmy]

Shoot a 3 shot group and post a pic.

 

[mickeydim468]

Well, the weather went back to crud so I decided to just try to take the scope back to WalMart. Even though I had lost the receipt and part of the packaging was thrown away they still exchanged the scope for the more expensive model and I got the new scope and only had to give them $15 bucks. The weather forcast don't look good for a while so I will take it back out as soon as I can get the chance.

BTW... I checked the mounts while I was out at the range yesterday and they were tight as I could get them and not moving. Also, yes it does have the iron sights on it, but the scope base is in the way and they can't be used unless it is removed as well as the rings and ETC...

I hope I have this licked with getting the same scope as my M1917 which was accurate on this gun first.

 

[husker]

i had to take my center point back twice to wallmart before i got one that worked .its a 3-9-32 that takes a battery to light it up green or red. this all happened last summer. so yesterday i went out to shoot the 10/22 and its lost zero again and is now in the trash can. save your money their junk.

 

[flipajig]

save your money and buy the best quality optics that you can. It goes back to you pay for what you get and also get some blue locktight after severial rds the recoil will loosen your scope mounts

 

[hardluk1]

One more thang to try... Let a buddy try to shoot it and see what happens.

 

[longdayjake]

I used to hate my scoped guns until I spent $300 bucks for a good leupold. Since then I have gone up to a $500 scope. Some day I am sure my needs will take me to $700 and then up to $1500 but right now the wife has me on spending lockdown.

 

[Ned Kelly]

Scope.

Even expensive ones mess up sometimes or are faulty right from the factory. I had a leopold vari-x II once that was bad.

 

[mickeydim468]

When I took my scope back to Wally World, the guy in sporting goods told me that they must have gotten a bad batch of that model in this time. He said that there had been 4 other people this week and 4 or 5 people last week bring that same make and model scope back for the same reason...It wouldn't hold zero. He said before that in the 10 years he has worked the department, he maybe saw 2 or 3 come back in that whole time.

I asked about the larger one that I now have and he said he has never seen one of them come back for any reason. So, I should be ok now that I have the better and bigger scope on it.

We shall see... maybe even this afternoon. The rain has let up and I see sun so maybe a quick trip to BLM land will get ma a good idea anyhow!

Not sure though.

Maybe better to wait until I can go to the range!

Decisions, decisions....:banghead:

Mikey!

 

[rangerruck]

nc is dead on here; open sites at 50 yds will tell you the story.
But on a single shot; you have to remember that you MUST PUT YOUR FRONT
SITE RESTS IN THE SAME PLACE, EVERY TIME!!!!
I would use a sandbag, and keep it as stiff and sharp as you can hold it with your free hand, and keep it right up against the front of your trigger guard.
single shots are notorious for throwing shots all over the place, if you put your rest in front of the breakpoint. and also the front of the stock will put all kinds of torque on your bbl as well, when you move your front rest.

Also, centerpoint is about 3rd cheapest from the bottom , from made in china products; dont know
if I would trust it on a centerfire rifle.
Lastly, you could have developed a hairling crack in your rings, and not know it. if you remove the scope, tighten the rings down all the way like there is a scope in there, and then take a wood
stick, and put it in one of the rings, and twist it, you may see a crack open up somewhere.

 

[paintballdude902]

if you want a cheap walmart scope go with a tasco i payed 34 dollars and it works great

its a temp scope till i get some more cash but its workin well for the cash its mounted on a .30-06 has probably 2 hundred rounds thru it and hasnt moved zero yet

 

[mickeydim468]

I am going out right now to shoot the Rossi with the new scope. I will post pics when I get back. I am also taking the .22lr barrel with a new scope too. I think I will take my Ruger P95 as well as the Heritage Arms .22. Going to be a fun afternoon!

I sure do love shooting these guns! Wow!

 

[mickeydim468]

Well, I wasn't able to get pics because the target blew off my backstop on the way home, but I can tell you that with the new scope on my .243 Win Bbl, I was able to put as many as 9 shots in a row inside a 2" square at 100 yds while shooting from a kneeling position and using a berm of dirt as something to steady myself. That's good enough for me for what I am using the rifle for.

With the .22lr Bbl I was able to hit the same hole at 50 yards 1 out of 5 shots and the other 3 shots within a 1" square while shooting prone with no bags.

The reason for the strange shooting positions is that we didn't go to the range, we went out to the BLM land and set up out there with my home made backstop. I found a new place to shoot with a great natural dirt birm behind where I set up my target and it is almost 150 yards of flat graded dirt. We measured with a tape measure, and set up markers so that the next time we want to go out, we wont have to measure again. We will bring the tape measure just in case but this is a great site to shoot at! It is 10 minutes from home too! Not 60 miles away, like the gun club is!

Thanks for all of your posts!

I surely appreciate all of your help.

Mikey!

 

[mickeydim468]

Still having issues with the .243!

I took it out last weekend to the range and shooting from bags at 100 yds I didn't even touch the paper. At first I was using factory ammo too. Which is what I have always used before that day. Same brand same Gr bullet everything was the same as the above post, only the location was different.

I ended up trying the ammo I reloaded and no matter what I tried I couldn't get it to group at all. I can not move the scope mount, at least it doesn't appear to be moving. Maybe this rifle just isn't a good candidate for a scope. I am going to try to just use it with the factory iron sights (Which are made of plastic, but I didn't know what else to call them) and see what happens as someone above suggested.

I hope it will shoot better that way. I would hate to sell this gun. I just like the feel of it. It don't shoot worth a damn, but it feels good. I would never hunt with it the way it is, for fear of just injuring an animal and then losing it because it just keeps running.

If you have any other suggestions to try, I am going out to the range again this weekend if weather permits, and I will try whatever else you may suggest! I am looking at a long day out there trying to work this out. I have 100 re-loads to shoot in it and enough supplies to make more out there if needed.

Let me know!

Thanks,

Mikey!

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Do you think it is the scope, or the rifle?

(a) That's a false dichotomy - could be one of those; could be other things.

(b) We KNOW that it's not the rifle, because you previously got sub-2-MOA.

So the correct *question* is, is it:

1. You
2. Scope
3. Rings / Base / Tightening Issues
4. Ammo

MOST likely candidate is #4. Second most likely candidate is #3. Third most likely candidate is #2. Least likely candidate is #1. Only way to know for sure is to control the variables.

First, I'd use the SAME ammo you used when you got sub-2-MOA. THEN, make sure all base & scope rings are tight. Then shoot and analyze. It's probably the scope (but not *necessarily*) if that doesn't fix it. I'd probably try several different ammo types before blaming the scope. It almost always pays easy cheap dividend to use high quality steel rings, even if the scope is on the cheapish side. Good luck.

 

[mickeydim468]

Dr. Tad,
Well, I do not believe it was the ammo. The ammo to begin with was bought the same day as the ammo I achieved sub 2 MOA. Both boxes were Remington CoreLokt 150 Gr SP. It was only after I ran out of them that I went to the reloads. They were shooting about the same. All over the place!

I narrowed it down to about a 4 MOA group by adjusting the scope, but that isn't near what I had hoped for.

I had not touched the scope adjustments before the trip to the range and it was only after not hitting paper at 100 that I moved back to the 25yd range and made adjustments. Then I was hitting paper again and then was able to narrow it down from there by making scope adjustments. I was using bags and kept them close to the trigger guard as suggested above.

I have the scope and mount off of it now and will try with open sights this weekend to see if that improves things. Is there anything else that you think I can try?

Mikey!

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Remington "core-lokt" is a bullet, not an ammo. It's a pretty decent bullet, but ONE of the types of factory ammo it's loaded in, the Remington "Express" ammo (which I think is what you mean), is NOT very good.

You may very well get 2 MOA by trying some Federal, Winchester, Hornady, or handloads - different batches of the same type of ammo can go from bad to good, or vice versa, though admittedly that is fairly rare.

It very well may be the scope. Might be cheaper to try a different scope than trying different ammos. Could be you, too - are you holding a good hold?

 

[mickeydim468]

Yes, I guess that's what I meant. It is Remington express, but that is what I was shooting the sub 2 MOA with on the last trip out. As for my shooting, I think I am holding it right and securely. I am holding it similarly to my M1917 which shoots sub 2 MOA with Remington Express 150Gr and sub 1 MOA with 150Gr handloads. On that same trip, I tested my first loads for the 30.06 too and couldn't be more pleased. I had a 5 shot group measured center to center at .83" I was so happy. Then I shot the .243 and well, you know my result.

 

[Reid73]

I doubt that the rifle is the problem, but to be on the safe side why don't you try replacing the original scope that is now on your M1917. If that allows you to duplicate the 2 MOA results that you were previously enjoying, you can eliminate the rifle as a possible factor.

CenterPoint is a cheap scope, so that could be the problem (although some people report that they work well; see also here).

Assuming that money is an issue, I suggest spending your limited budget on a high quality, simple, fixed-power scope from a well-established manufacturer (e.g., Leupold), rather than a low-end variable that comes with fancy features such as illuminated reticles, range estimators, etc.

What mounts are you using?

 

[mickeydim468]

I wouldn't call the scope cheap and I wouldn't call it the best either, but if I spend $80.00 bucks for the thing I expect it to work no matter where I bought it. $80.00 for something in my book is a lot of money to spend for something to not have it work! I don't care about the red/green light feature or the mil dots, what I really needed was the ability to go from 4-16X magnification. That is what sold me on the scope. It also has a pretty good and long eye relief, which was another deciding factor.

I am using the Weaver type mounts that came with the scope. But you see, where I would have thought the play "If any" would come from is where the Weaver mount base connects to the rifle. There are only 4 small screws in a straight line that attaches the base to the top of the breech end of the barrel.

I would have liked to have seen 4 screws in a block pattern and not a straight line. This would be much more sturdy. Maybe I am on to something. I will also try what you said about the other scope from the M1917. I will first try the open sights, then work my way up the food chain until I have a point where it quits. I will let you folks know after this weekend.

Thanks for all of your help guys! What would I do without you? I can answer that question... I would be doing a lot more of this! :banghead::banghead:

Seriously...

 

[Eb1]

Let someone else shoot it with some Winchester PowerPoints look here http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=X2432&bn=1&type=12. I would use iron sights at 25 yards to sight the gun in. Then move back 25 yard and shoot (3-4) shots at each interval until you get to 100 yards.

For a rest I would use sand bags two or three up front with the forearm resting on the bag as near to the receiver as I could. Do not let the barrel touch the sand bag.
At the butt of the gun I would have another sandbag with the stock resting on it with my hand as well to raise and lower elevation as needed.

This should tell you if you have a problem with the gun. Do not let the barrel rest on the sandbags.

Once you have established a new baseline of accuracy for you gun with irons and new ammo using this bench technique, get some decent mounts, and a scope that will handle the recoil from the gun. My opinion is on a Bushnell 3200 Elite with FireFly reticle as a minimum.

Good luck.


EDIT. I am not judging or downing your equipment. I am trying to get you to the place you want to be. Which is to have a rifle that will group. At least group good enough for 200 yard hunting.

 

[JimKirk]

Check the forearm

I am not familar with the Rossi rifle you have, but I have a H&R(243) handi rifle that looks similar. I was having the same problem as you until I checked the tightness of the forearm screw. I had really tightened the screw and the H&R was shooting like a shotgun. I found that if I backed off slightly after snugging the screw that it would shoot 1.5" or sometimes less at 100 yards. My daughter killed her first deer and several more with it.

Jimmy K