RANGE REPORT w/Pics. I have a Scope or Rifle Problem... Please Help!

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I have always cranked down on that screw that attaches the forearm. I figured it is only secured with one screw, so it must need to be really tight.

It really makes a difference the tightness of the forearm screw huh? Can someone tell me why this would make a difference? Is it like glass bedding the action and free floating the barrel?

This gives me something else to try!

This is great stuff guys keep the suggestions coming and I will really have a full day at the range this weekend.
 
Because like I mentioned. Any tension on the barrel will change point of impact when the rifle is shot. Also when the barrel heats up this will become worse.

It is like with my lever guns. I can tighten the barrel band, and POI changes, and groups suffer. Sometimes on some guns tight is good, and on others...tight is bad..

That is a ruff run down on why tension on the barrel will make your rifle shoot haywire. I am sure others can explain the bedding of a bolt gun better than I.

If it were me. I would remove the forearm, and shoot the rifle with sandbags like I mentioned (unless this is a key component for the barrel to be attached :) ) Rest the receiver on the sandbag, but that is me and my way of trouble shooting. Once I have proven the rifle will group, I would refit the forearm, and tighten only until you feel tension. I would not crank down on it with all my might. A little rattle will not hurt, it might help. As you tighten the forearm you might see your groups open up, but they might tighten up.

All of this done with open (iron) sights until I have proven the gun is still grouping.
 
Yeah, Boris. It is what makes the weekends fun. That and fishing.
 
+1 of the fun and +1 on the fishing. I will try it without the forearm like you mentioned. Start from the very beginning. If I could figure out a way to remove the butt-stock and trigger from the mix and still make the gun fire I would, but that's not possible, so I will go back to the least possible parts on the gun, and work my way up.

Boris, I wish they were an exact science, since I am an engineer, and that is the way I am used to having things work for me. Mathematics and Logic are my friend! Then again, I am not too bad at troubleshooting things that don't work the way they are supposed to, because I work on PCs all day long, so I am used to it. I guess I will have to start thinking like it was a circuit and work my way from the beginning to the end logically and expect many variables. Sounds fun to me!

Cool!
 
Forearm

As EB said, play with the tightness. Mine liked it slighty loose, but not rattleing. 1/8 of a turn can and did make much difference in my group size. Once I found the sweet spot, I scratched a little mark in the forearm so I could return to the same tightness. I find this works on bolt action guns too, depending on 2 or 3 screw action, I would tighten or loosen the rear action screw, sometimes the middle screw, but I always tighten the front screw fairly tight. I have a rep for being able to make non-shooter guns into shooters...so many different things can make a rifle not shoot well....finding the one that makes that difference ...priceless!

Jimmy
 
Mickeydim468,

Just make sure that the forearm on your model is cosmetic, and not a functioning piece for the firearm. I would not want to recommend you do something that will put you in harms way. I have shot my 336's without a forearm before. I had to a couple times to find out what the problem was with the gun not shooting up to par.

Good luck in your endeavor.
 
I got the same Centerpoint scope, and it's the cat's ass on my 10/22, it just might not be up to a centerfire rifle though.

One other factor to think of is the rings, I threw out the ones that came with the Centerpoint, they looked like garbage, at very least, try another set of rings.
 
allways check a rifle first, at 50 yds, with open sights. this will tell you everything. Centerpoint scopes; not the best, chinese made, would doubt any of them on a centerfire rifle.
 
I use that same cheap Centerpoint 4-16x44mm IR mildot scope on my 30-06 and it shoots .75-1" groups at 100yards with Federal Power Shok 150gr. Not to say your scope isn't bad but for only $69 at WalMart that scope has still to have any issues.
 
Am I reading this wrong or are you saying you shot 150 gr Core Loct through a .243? Never heard of a 150gr .243 bullet.

Second, while you may think $80 is a lot of money, and it is certainly nothing to throw around without worry, it is very very little in the optics world. China made scopes are VERY hit or miss, with many brands missing more than they hit. I know it hurts the wallet to do so but buy something not made in China. Sightron SI line is very affordable and while still not a great scope it is worlds ahead of the China line. While you may have gotten one scope that handles the recoil of a centerfire it sounds like you found two that wouldn't. Who knows how long the good one will last. Who knows how many times it can be rezeroed for different ammo before it goes bad. Lets face it, an $80 scope isn't going to have either the lens or the build quality of a $200 scope. While .243 isn't a hard hitter it is still enough to turn a bad scope to trash. I really think you will appreciate a budget non-China made scope over a big feature China made scope.

As said try it without the scope at 50 yards and see how it does. If it comes near what it was getting when going right I would think it is more than likely a scope problem. If that is the case I would try a better scope, even if it means living with iron sights while you save up. Nikon prostaff is a great budget scope as well as the Weaver 4x Shotgun scope at Natchez as well as the Bushnell 3200 line and Sightron SI and SII if you can afford the SII. Anymore I feel you should spend as much if not more on the scope as you do on the rifle.
 
Adjusting the forearm may help, but before you try that I urge you to go back to the old scope and see how well the rifle shoots with it.

There are many variables here. Really, you don't want to start indiscriminately tinkering with things or you may well never be able to sort out the problem. Proceeding at a slow and methodical pace will work much better.

I wouldn't call the scope cheap and I wouldn't call it the best either, but if I spend $80.00 bucks for the thing I expect it to work no matter where I bought it. $80.00 for something in my book is a lot of money to spend for something to not have it work!
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Point taken. However, as benzy2 says, $80 is very cheap for a scope (including rings!). It's kinda like purchasing a brand-new automobile for $6,000; it should be safe but it would not exactly be a surprise to find out that it is not of very high quality and tends to have problems. At least you bought through Walmart and can rely upon them to refund or replace.

Optics are at least as controversial as firearms, but I think most people would agree that generally speaking, you get what you pay for. Certainly you can pay >$1,500 for a scope and have problems, and you can pay >$200 and have no problems ... but it is best to play the odds and go with a 'name brand'.

I associate myself with Eb1's 'edit' comment.
 
Wow! You guys have been busy while I was gone! Where to start?

Eb1, No the forearm isn't integral to the make up of the rifle and should not be an issue as far as safety goes without the forearm.

To everyone else about the scope being made in China,
I honestly didn't know it was made in China, I thought it was made in USA, because it is marketed by Crossman Corp. I have always thought of Crossman to be a reputible company. I know they are not known for their optics, but they have always stood behind their air rifles and other products, so I called them this morning. I told them my situation and asked them what they think would be the cause of the problem. The technician said that it is most likely the scope. She told me to take it back to Wal Mart for a replacement or a refund. She said the scope has a limited Lifetime warranty and they would stand behind their product as I had expected them to do. I asked her if a centerfire rifle was too much for the scope, and she said that the model I have is designed for centerfire rifles and a .243 is on the low end of centerfire rifles as far as recoil stands and said they are designed to be resistant to much higher amounts of recoil than that.

I figure I will take the scope back today for a replacement and get myself a better set of mounts for it. I will still start at the beginning and then work my way up to adding the scope to the rifle. If everything is good up to adding the scope, then I will go ahead and change the scope to a more expensive model as it seems the consensus here thinks I should spend more money on optics! The rifle with three barrels, a .22lr, a .243 WIN, and a 20Ga. with a carrying case only cost me $249.00 plus the background fee, so adding a $250.00 scope don't make good sense to me. I may put a higher cost scope on my M1917, and put the original scope back on the .243. We shall see. Lots to think about and do this weekend. At least the rain and cloudy days have stopped for a while. It is a beautiful sunny day today.

Thanks you guys!
 
I told them my situation and asked them what they think would be the cause of the problem. The technician said that it is most likely the scope. She told me to take it back to Wal Mart for a replacement or a refund. She said the scope has a limited Lifetime warranty and they would stand behind their product as I had expected them to do.
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Have to give them due credit for their candour and willingness to accept responsibility.

figure I will take the scope back today for a replacement and get myself a better set of mounts for it.
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If I were you, I would ask for a refund and put the money towards a Bushnell or Leupold.

The rifle with three barrels, a .22lr, a .243 WIN, and a 20Ga. with a carrying case only cost me $249.00 plus the background fee, so adding a $250.00 scope don't make good sense to me.
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Do what you think best.
 
I took out my Rossi .243 today and tried to shoot it at 25yds with the open sights first. I got it aligned and moved over to 50 yards. Still using the open sights, I couldn't get it to shoot anything less than 3-4" groups. I tried everything I could, from your suggestions, and even a few things I thought of on my own, and it wouldn't group for anything. My buddy tried it too, and had the same issues I was having, so it wasn't just me.

Frustrated, I started packing up and some guy asked about my gun. I told him what it was and what problems I was having and he asked me if I wanted to sell it. I said I did and he offered me $200.00 without the scope and slip on limb saver, and I took it! I asked him why he wanted it, and he told me he teaches gun safety and it don't need to be that accurate for any long distance and that they never shoot over 25 yards anyway. So, I showed him my results at 25 yards and he said that would be fine.

So, I went straight to the Bi-Mart and bought me a Weatherby Vanguard in .243 Win for $359.00. Then, I went to Wal Mart, and exchanged my scope for a new one in the same model, plus I bought a set of steel ring mounts too. I went ahead and did this just in case the other one had issues. I doubt it, I think it was the gun anyway, but now I am set.

This new Weatherby is sweet! I haven't shot it yet, but I am going out to the range again tomorrow to try it out. The test target that comes with this new rifle shows a three shot group at 100 yards and get this... It is less than 0.5". This thing should have been one of their Sub-MOA rifles for sure. It's guaranteed to 1.5", so I should be able to give you guys a really good report tomorrow night or Monday morning.

I will try to post pics then too!

Mikey!
 
Cool deal, Mikey.

Glad you got that stress off your chest. Nothing like expecting a purchase (gun) to work for you, and when it doesn't.. Man-o-Man! Nothing but stress.

I am glad you tried with open sights. It might have come down to bullet selection, but even at 25 yards with bullets it doesn't like you should be able to get an inch group out of it.

I wish the best for you and that Vangaurd. Remember! If you tighten the rings and scope to tight you will have serious problems. A scope only needs to be tight enough. Not TIGHT!
Just a friendly reminder. Tighten the rings pretty tight to the base, and the base pretty tight as well, but I usually only tighten my scope in the rings to about the same force it takes to open a pickle lid. To much, and the adjustment go haywire, and they will jump on you.
20 ft lb or less on the rings usually are good, and make sure you have even spacing on each ring. This will ensure that the scope isn't damaged by being to tight.

I am not trying to be a know it all, but like I said before. The goal is to get your rifle in tip top shape for 200 yard hunting groups.
 
EB1,
No, I do not think you are a know it all... I appreciate your help. Even though I am getting better with my guns, I am still, sort of, a newbie! It was only a couple weeks ago I shot and hit on target for the first time at 300 yards.

Range report!!!

After shooting 20 rounds of factory ammo and cleaning the barrel after each shot and using that time to get familiar with the "feel" of the rifle. I reloaded those 20 factory brass with Hornady 100Gr, and H4350 2.5cc volume loads with the Lee dipper. Then I tried for a few 5 shot groups and then a 3 shot group to see how I matched up with the target that came with the new Weatherby. My best 5 shot group measured 1.8" including the 1 flier. I think that one was me. 4 of those shots were grouped at 1.1". The 3 shot group was on bull and measured .707". All three shots in the green 1" circle of my target. I could not be any happier than I am right now with my rifle. I love this gun! There is nothing extravagant about it. It is just a well made tool for a specific job. It is simplicity at it's finest!

BTW,
I shot my 1917 '06 too, and I just truly do love this gun too! It is what it is, being a bubba'd mil-surp rifle with it's shortened barrel and cut off stock, but that 91 year old rifle shoots every bit as good as the new Weatherby if not better. I did some 5 shot groups with the 1917 too, and my best one was also a tight 4 shots and 1 flier. The 4 shots measured .781". If you include the flier the group expands out to .97". All of these shots were with my hand loads. 150Gr Speer Hot Cor, once fired Remington brass, with H4350 4cc volume loads with the Lee dipper.

NOTE:
I do want to mention that the wind was blowing at me from about the 1 O'clock position at 3-7 Mph with gusts to 10. I tried to wait for the lull in the wind to shoot.

I would really like to thank all of you who have helped me with my scope/Rossi rifle problem. I am sorry I gave up on it without finding out exactly what was the cause of the problem, but I am pretty darn sure you can agree; It wasn't the scope. The 2 shooters mentioned above are both using the Center Point Adventure series 4-16X40 scope. Both are shooting sub-MOA groups with this scope. Not too bad if I do say so myself!

I will post pictures later today.

Mikey!
 
With the price of bullets today and mounting your scopes I would invest in a collimator ( boresighter). After borsighting my rifle I take it to the range with me. I then shoot three shots and ajust the scope with the boresighter. Then shoot. Make fine ajustments. Once you have centered at 100 yards install the collimator to see ware the crosshair is on the grid. I take my collimator to hunting camp with me incase I drop my rifle I can ck. it. I will also tell you if the ajustments on the scope are working.
 
Good advice BBstacker.

I had left out a small piece of info in my post about the new rifle. The guy at the sporting department of my Bi Mart set up the scope with a bore sighter by Bushnell that has a grid on it too.

I am going to be looking for one too so I can adjust, in a whoops situation too without firing.

With the price of bullets today and mounting your scopes I would invest in a collimator
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You know, it's pretty sad that we have to even bring that up. You are very correct. Even with me doing the re-loads right there at the range, it still cost me too much money just to get my new rifle set up and tested for accuracy. But I guess I can look at it this way... There is another argument for getting a collimator. It will pay for itself in only "x" rounds Honey! :D

Mikey!
 
That is great news, and very respectable groups. Sounds like you are good to go with that rifle. Using a 2.5CC dipper is great because you can load fairly quickly.
 
EB1,
Yes, I love that dipper. It only took me maybe 15 to 20 minutes right there at the shooting bench and I had some really accurate loads. There is one drawback to this. I have over 200 rounds of .243 brass, but I only have the Lee Classic Loader. The Classic Loader only neck sizes the cases. The Rossi fired cases do not fit in the Weatherby. I need to find someone who has a complete case sizer or just try to sell this brass. I would rather just get this brass re-sized than sell this stuff and build up again.

If it ain't one thing it's another! Oh well, welcome to the world of owning firearms. LOL

Mikey!
 
IMR 4064 or Hodgdon Varget powder might tighten those groups a little more for ya.
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You know, I was thinking about trying H4895 next. Why do you say 4064 or Varget? What characteristics do they have that makes them better? Seriously, I do not know, and would really like to learn. Bummer is I have 2 pounds of H4350 on it's way right now from Wideners.
 
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