Rank These Calibers (As Objectively as Possible)

[Kachok]

^ Don't forget Howa they offer them too. TC builds a 6.5x55 as well just not for the US market, and every once in a blue mood Savage and Winchester do a limited run of 6.5x55 which I can never seem to catch in time.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

You guys all bring up good points that I'll deal with sooner or later. For example, I'd want peep/aperture sights and a scope. I don't like how the modern rifles are only made for a scope. I understand that this fits most people, but I'm not a big fan. And like I said, I don't plan on ever reloading (though that could change), so what's available from the factory is a bigger issue for me than the round's potential via reloading.

I ran some more numbers in that Remington Shoot! application and will post them here later today. I expanded my list to many more calibers and excluded the .303 and the 8mm mauser since their factory loads are so underdone. Assuming that's typical, I don't think I'd be interested. I find the .303 particularly disappointing since I love the Enfield No. 4s so much (mostly for their sights). Unfortunately, the 7.5x55 swiss and the 7.62x54R are still excluded because Remington doesn't sell them.

Will post soon!

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

Round------Avg. Eff. Dist.---Long Eff. Dist.---@300y(in)---@600y(in)---$/Round---Avail.---Recoil

7mm Rem Mag--------648--------814-----------11.25------80.20-----------1.15--------189------20.5
.300 Win Mag---------609--------704-----------10.82------79.44-----------1.15--------213------24.7
.264 Win Mag---------559--------559***-------11.35------81.02-----------1.42---------14------19.2
7mm-08--------------549--------621-----------13.16------92.42-----------1.13---------75------12.4
.280 Rem-------------540--------691-----------12.47------89.43-----------1.21---------55------17.2
.260 Rem-------------523--------539-----------14.12------95.80-----------1.31---------25------12.9
.30-06 Spring---------522--------579-----------14.49-----104.69-----------0.58--------357------19.5
.270 Win-------------515-------~650-----------11.59------85.92-----------0.72--------182------17.5
.338 Win Mag---------498--------568-----------14.56------98.77-----------1.65---------75------34.0
.308 Win--------------470--------538-----------15.63-----112.23-----------0.56--------360------17.0
8mm Mag-------------439--------439***-------13.41------98.42-----------3.48----------2-------33.0
7.5x55 Swiss----------435--------499+++-------16.00-----105.70-----------0.91---------6-------13.9
.25-06----------------418--------450-----------11.30------84.98-----------1.21---------78------11.8
7x57 Mauser----------414--------414***-------15.84-----109.69-----------0.67---------41------13.6
6.5x55 Swede---------408--------408***-------17.10-----114.19-----------0.93---------38------11.5
6mm Rem-------------383--------429-----------10.96------80.21-----------1.08---------31------10.0
.243 Win-------------337--------381------------12.39------87.36-----------0.62--------164-------8.8
6.8mm SPC-----------326--------331------------14.63-----106.54-----------0.74--------38-------8.0
.303 British-----------237--------268***--------21.79-----167.47-----------0.71--------44-------14.8
.257 Roberts----------199--------199***-------19.57-----160.75-----------1.21---------25------10.0
.22-250--------------164--------181------------8.42-------80.42-----------0.58--------128-------4.7
.222 Rem-------------160--------176-----------14.90-----146.99------------0.44--------44--------3.0
7.62x39mm-----------154--------157-----------24.54------189.50-----------0.32--------79--------6.9
8mm Mauser----------147--------147***-------28.58------237.61-----------0.75--------22-------13.6
.30-30 Win-----------121--------145-----------29.41------236.74-----------0.61--------125------11.4
.44 Rem Mag----------103-------105-----------61.47------427.83-----------0.51--------185-------11.3
.223 Win------------- 77---------98------------12.13------111.10-----------0.29--------356-------3.2

***Low Sample Size... Only 1 or 2 loads offered by Remington
+++Samples derived by alternative means

Again, just to clarify for those who may not want to read through 4 pages of information, the FIRST number is the average distance at which the Remington loads for that caliber still maintains 1800f/s and 1000ft-lbs. The SECOND number is the furthest distance at which this is achieved by one of the Remington loads.

1.) This doesn't show the caliber's potential, as has been discussed. These are factory loads only.
2.) These are only loads from Remington.
3.) This also doesn't really take rifle into account.
4.) Some of those listed only have 1 load offered by Remington while the .30-06 has about 20 loads offered.
5.) Remington doesn't sell loads for two calibers about which I'm interested... 7.62x54R and 7.5x55 Swiss.

 

[meanmrmustard]

7mm Rem Mag-----648-----814
.300 Win Mag------609-----704
7mm-08-----------549-----621
.280 Rem----------540-----691
.264 Win Mag------559-----559***
.260 Rem----------523-----539
.30-06 Spring------522-----579
.270 Win----------515----~650
.338 Win Mag------498-----568
.308 Win-----------470-----538
8mm Mag----------439-----439***
.25-06-------------418-----450
7x57 Mauser-------414-----414***
6.5x55 Swede------408-----408***
6mm Rem----------383-----429
.243 Win----------337-----381
6.8mm SPC--------326-----331
.303 British--------237-----268***
.257 Roberts-------199-----199***
.22-250-----------164-----181
.222 Swift---------160-----176
7.62x39mm--------154-----157
8mm Mauser-------147-----147***
.30-30 Win--------121-----145
.44 Rem Mag-------103-----105
.223 Win---------- 77------98

***Low Sample Size... Only 1 or 2 loads offered by Remington

Again, just to clarify for those who may not want to read through 4 pages of information, the FIRST number is the average distance at which the Remington loads for that caliber still maintains 1800f/s and 1000ft-lbs. The SECOND number is the furthest distance at which this is achieved by one of the Remington loads.

1.) This doesn't show the caliber's potential, as has been discussed. These are factory loads only.
2.) These are only loads from Remington.
3.) This also doesn't really take rifle into account.
4.) Some of those listed only have 1 load offered by Remington while the .30-06 has about 20 loads offered.
5.) Remington doesn't sell loads for two calibers about which I'm interested... 7.62x54R and 7.5x55 Swiss.

You could just use GP11 or Prvi soft point for the Swiss, and some milsurp soft point of moderate weight for the Russian, just to make them feel included!

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

Where is the information available on those? I really don't know where to look. That's why I'm obsessed with that Remington Shoot! App. LOL

 

[meanmrmustard]

Where is the information available on those? I really don't know where to look. That's why I'm obsessed with that Remington Shoot! App. LOL

Plug in info on Hornady calculator.

GP11
.500 BC (pretty close)
2640 mv
174 gr weight

Looks interesting, but as for the 7.62x54R, you'll have to pick one.

Better yet, I'll put in the 165 gr Interbond 7.5 Swiss, to keep it apples to apples.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Ok, I plugged in the numbers for the Interbond 165 gr 7.5 Swiss:

At or above 1800fps out to 560+-yards
At or above 1000ft/lbs out to 650 yards.
Bullet is reaching its max per the "rule" given in the 550-560 yard range. Call it 550 to be fair.

That's my addition to your chart Freak.

 

[jmr40]

As I said originally said it is splitting hairs to say any one is really better than the other. FreedomFreaks most recent post only confirms this. The numbers on the 8mm Mauser look low,but the round has the potential to be very near 30-06.

 

[meanmrmustard]

As I said originally said it is splitting hairs to say any one is really better than the other. FreedomFreaks most recent post only confirms this. The numbers on the 8mm Mauser look low,but the round has the potential to be very near 30-06.

With hand loads?

Does look awful low for 8mm, but like he said, it's Remington's stuff.

 

[Kachok]

The 8mm Mauser is capable of 2700fps with a 200gr bullet according to Nosler. That is actually faster then the most potent 30-06 load they have listed in the same weight.

 

[browningguy]

30-06
Everything else

And I own just about 1 of each, except I have three 30-06's.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

It certainly is splitting hairs, especially when practical features come into play (ie, recoil). But as I've said from the beginning, I'm just trying to learn some theory. It's not like I'm going to make my next purchase a 7mm Rem Mag because it happens to come out on top here. I probably couldn't hit a 50-foot wall at 812 yards, much less killing a deer cleanly. This is just one of those subjects with infinite opinions and I'm just trying to clarify things. I've have GREATLY enjoyed this thread!!! LOL... It's kept me pretty busy, even at work when I should be working.

In fact, whereas I probably wouldn't have seriously considered the .243 or .25-06, they intrigue me now. With average ranges of 337 and 418, respectively, they would provide plenty of power long past any shots I would take. I had formerly viewed them as "too weak"; not that I didn't think they could be effective, just that I couldn't understand getting one of those when the .30-06, .308, and .270 are so much "bigger" and "better."

meanmrmustard, I'll look into that stuff--most likely tomorrow! Thanks for the info.

 

[akodo]

!?!?!? I was not talking any factory fodder off the shelf garbage, I am talking about custom handloads designed for shooting long range. My 200gr AB 30-06 loads have a much higher BC then any 130gr .270 cal as do my 140gr 6.5x55, sure they are slower out of the muzzle then my 270 but at range they are moving faster thanks to the more streamlined bullets. That is the difference between shooting flat and shooting far. If we are talking the the context of grabbing whatever 150gr BS is gathering dust on the shelf of your local hardwear store then yeah the 270 is the better of the two but that is not really a fair comparison of what they are capable of.
BTW I have absolutly no problem using 200gr for deer hunting seeing as down here we can run across some very large hogs while hunting as well, so bringing a little extra never hurts. Not knocking the 270 though, great caliber, I have used them for many years and have yet to have any issues with them.

If you are talking custom loads designed for long range you are talking about the exception, not the norm. Hence you need to state that factor. To do otherwise is disingenuous on your part.

As it stands, your long range 200 grain 30-06 loads are irrelevant to the discussion as #1 they are a hand load of your own concoction #2 most people aren't out hunting deer with a 200 grain 30-06 any more than they are out hunting deer with a 375 H&H. 3 or 4 people probably do both, but that is so far off of 'standard behavior' to be irrelevant in this discussion

Third, if you were referring to the performance of a hand-loaded exceptional SD round like the 200 grain 30-06 regardless of how unconventional, then the only fair way to compare it to other chamberings is to also compare to high SD handloads, something like the Barnes 180 grain 270 bullet. Then you have a reasonable comparison. I'd be that a souped up hand loaded 270 round using the 180 grain barnes compared to your 200 grain 30-06, the results would play out just the same as I spelled out with the lighter loads just with higher retained energy.

 

[akodo]

Again, just to clarify for those who may not want to read through 4 pages of information, the FIRST number is the average distance at which the Remington loads for that caliber still maintains 1800f/s and 1000ft-lbs. The SECOND number is the furthest distance at which this is achieved by one of the Remington loads.

.

Why is 1000 ft-lbs your threshold for deer?

I have found that John Taylor of the Taylor KO factor state that 1500 is the minimum for elk...but he was mainly an African Game hunter and really had a big preference for heavy hitting cartridges

I have found others that cite 1200 for elk and 1000 for elk guys like Bob Milek who were big fans of the 25-06 for elk hunting have said 750...and dropped PLENTY of elk at decent ranges using a quarter bore.
(I am sure the guys also stipulate a vitals hit with a at least reasonable bullet)

If some guys have argued that the minimal for elk is 750, and stood behind it by getting many clean kills with not much over that number, then why 1000 ft-lb for white tail? Yes, Elk and Moose are technically in the deer family, but generally when people say for 'deer hunting' they are meaning white tails and mule deer (as well as others of approximately that same size) not elk, moose, red deer, and the other biggies.

 

[Kachok]

If you are talking custom loads designed for long range you are talking about the exception, not the norm. Hence you need to state that factor. To do otherwise is disingenuous on your part.

As it stands, your long range 200 grain 30-06 loads are irrelevant to the discussion as #1 they are a hand load of your own concoction #2 most people aren't out hunting deer with a 200 grain 30-06 any more than they are out hunting deer with a 375 H&H. 3 or 4 people probably do both, but that is so far off of 'standard behavior' to be irrelevant in this discussion

Third, if you were referring to the performance of a hand-loaded exceptional SD round like the 200 grain 30-06 regardless of how unconventional, then the only fair way to compare it to other chamberings is to also compare to high SD handloads, something like the Barnes 180 grain 270 bullet. Then you have a reasonable comparison. I'd be that a souped up hand loaded 270 round using the 180 grain barnes compared to your 200 grain 30-06, the results would play out just the same as I spelled out with the lighter loads just with higher retained energy.

Actualy your 180gr .277 cal bullet was round nose and flat based so it had pretty horrible external ballistics for a bullet of that SD, there are 250gr 30 cals too but they share the same problem. No you want as heavy as possible without having to give up good low drag shape and still stabilize in standard rifling, in the case of the .270 that is 150gr, in the 6.5mms that is 140gr and in the 30 cals that is about 210gr. Yeah your avarage hunter does not use custom handloads but I would guess that there are alot more then 3 or 4 of us I know plenty more then that myself.

 

[mshootnit]

On that chart how in the world is 7mm-08 ahead of 280 rem the latter having such a large advantage in case capacity?
Secondly I know that 7.5 swiss has greater case capacity than 308 or 7mm-08, so it could be at least the equal of the two in a modern rifle.
Big limitations with the chart in my eyes.

 

[SN13]

You are going to get as many different lists as there are posts.

Having shot all of these except the 7.5 swiss, here is my ranking (BASED ON FACTORY LOADS ONLY.)

.30-06 springfield - 2T
.308 winchester - 2T
.270 winchester - 1
.303 british
8mm mauser
7mm-08 remington -4
7.62x54R
7.5x55 swiss
6.5x55 swede

I didn't bother ranking the others because they are all capable and user preference is key.

When I set out to buy a factory gun to shoot factory ammo to act as my really accurate deer rifle within 1000 yards (Without being a magnum) my research gave me the .270 win.

Today, when I go through the calibers to find a great all-around single round, My research returns the .270 win and 260 rem.

Unfortunately, the loadings for 260 rem are few and far between at this point.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

Why is 1000 ft-lbs your threshold for deer?

It's just a uniform standard of measure by which to judge how effective the various factory-loaded rounds are. You could easily take down deer or elk at less than 1,000 or raise your personal preference to, say, 1,500 if you think it's better safe then sorry, ethically. It was suggested as a good average benchmark and I'm just using it to see which rounds do that at the greatest distances. Same with the 1,800ft/s.

On that chart how in the world is 7mm-08 ahead of 280 rem the latter having such a large advantage in case capacity?
Secondly I know that 7.5 swiss has greater case capacity than 308 or 7mm-08, so it could be at least the equal of the two in a modern rifle.
Big limitations with the chart in my eyes.

That's part of the reason I wanted to do this; I thought the same thing. As many have noted, hand-loading an 8mm Mauser, for example, at least puts it near par with rounds like the .30-06. For whatever reasons out there, they just don't seem to be loaded to full potential relative to those like the .30-06. But, like I said, I'm only interested in factory loads right now. It also seems like there is a certain range of calibers that optimizes distance/power/speed. Smaller calibers lose power faster (ft-lbs) and larger calibers lose speed (ft/s). I've found this to be fascinating!

 

[cougar1717]

This is going to be fun So here we go:


10. 8mm mauser - this would be #1, except we won in '45.
9. 7.5x55 swiss - why do the swiss need rifles anyway?
8. 6.5x55 swede - because BC snobbery will not be allowed
7. 303 british - anything chambered in a SMLE gets a frown in my book.
6. 7.62x54R - a rim, really? - are you serious? what a faux pas!
5. 7mm-08 remington - chambered in wayyyy too many youth rifles to be cool
4. 308 winchester - because if the military uses it, it must be the best
3. 270 winchester - apparently O'Connor was right - it does kill everything
2. 30-06 springfield - doesn't everyone need to shoot 220's all the time?
1. Any cartridge with "magnum" in the name since today's deer are tougher than they were 60 years ago...at forty yards...while sitting over a feeder...dry as a bone in your Gore-tex suit.

 

[meanmrmustard]

This is going to be fun So here we go:


10. 8mm mauser - this would be #1, except we won in '45.
9. 7.5x55 swiss - why do the swiss need rifles anyway?
8. 6.5x55 swede - because BC snobbery will not be allowed
7. 303 british - anything chambered in a SMLE gets a frown in my book.
6. 7.62x54R - a rim, really? - are you serious? what a faux pas!
5. 7mm-08 remington - chambered in wayyyy too many youth rifles to be cool
4. 308 winchester - because if the military uses it, it must be the best
3. 270 winchester - apparently O'Connor was right - it does kill everything
2. 30-06 springfield - doesn't everyone need to shoot 220's all the time?
1. Any cartridge with "magnum" in the name since today's deer are tougher than they were 60 years ago...at forty yards...while sitting over a feeder...dry as a bone in your Gore-tex suit.

Yer silly.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

LOL!!!!!! I like that list.

 

[meanmrmustard]

This is going to be fun So here we go:


10. 8mm mauser - this would be #1, except we won in '45.
9. 7.5x55 swiss - why do the swiss need rifles anyway?
8. 6.5x55 swede - because BC snobbery will not be allowed
7. 303 british - anything chambered in a SMLE gets a frown in my book.
6. 7.62x54R - a rim, really? - are you serious? what a faux pas!
5. 7mm-08 remington - chambered in wayyyy too many youth rifles to be cool
4. 308 winchester - because if the military uses it, it must be the best
3. 270 winchester - apparently O'Connor was right - it does kill everything
2. 30-06 springfield - doesn't everyone need to shoot 220's all the time?
1. Any cartridge with "magnum" in the name since today's deer are tougher than they were 60 years ago...at forty yards...while sitting over a feeder...dry as a bone in your Gore-tex suit.

I'd like to try this out too, if no one minds:

10. 30/06-because the word "ought" is in the name rather than "should".
9. .270 Winchester- Another "ought" six wannabe.
8. 7mm-08, meh.
7. 303 British- because British folk talk funny.
6. 7.62x54R- rimmed cartridges are super duper, I think.
5. .308 win- because someone has to round out the top five, why not a jack of all trades?
4. 8mm Mauser- put up a hell of a fight, so here's a participation trophy...loser.
3. 7.5 Swiss- Switzerland loves arming themselves with fine guns...that they don't need. No neutral State stayed neutral by being unarmed.
2. 6.5 Swede- B.C. counts, and the 6.5 counts, and costs a butt ton. Awesome!
1. Magnums- Any chambering with this in the name turns shoulders into blissful, smiling hamburger of shooting ecstasy.

This list does not reflect the views and opinions of anyone on THR, I hope.

 

[mr.trooper]

The only two that stick out are the 6.5 Swede and the 270 Win. They will give you a flatter trajectory than the others.

The other 7 cartridges are so close to each other in ballistics and lethality, that the PLATFORM you are shooting them from is a far, far bigger factor.

I prefer the Enfield action first and foremost - LEGIT Enfield sporters made as such from the factory, or from actual gunsmiths, are sweet beautiful things. That's why I will always have a 303 around the house, regardless of any continued advances in ballistics.

 

[Kachok]

I'd like to try this out too, if no one minds:

10. 30/06-because the word "ought" is in the name rather than "should".
9. .270 Winchester- Another "ought" six wannabe.
8. 7mm-08, meh.
7. 303 British- because British folk talk funny.
6. 7.62x54R- rimmed cartridges are super duper, I think.
5. .308 win- because someone has to round out the top five, why not a jack of all trades?
4. 8mm Mauser- put up a hell of a fight, so here's a participation trophy...loser.
3. 7.5 Swiss- Switzerland loves arming themselves with fine guns...that they don't need. No neutral State stayed neutral by being unarmed.
2. 6.5 Swede- B.C. counts, and the 6.5 counts, and costs a butt ton. Awesome!
1. Magnums- Any chambering with this in the name turns shoulders into blissful, smiling hamburger of shooting ecstasy.

This list does not reflect the views and opinions of anyone on THR, I hope.

My 6.5x55 factory fodder costs less then any 308 hunting ammo I can find, $13 a box ain't bad at all these days, I would hardly call that a butt ton

 

[meanmrmustard]

My 6.5x55 factory fodder costs less then any 308 hunting ammo I can find, $13 a box ain't bad at all these days, I would hardly call that a butt ton

Ok, for those who don't reload. I don't trust the four kids I have running around the house to leave me alone long enough to do so, nor could I afford the factory fodder if I tried. 16 more years...freedom!!!

P.s. don't be testy, I ranked it #2!!!