meanmrmustard
Member
The longrangehunting.com gentlemen gave me that info. The actual BC of GP11 is .505, Hornady factory stuff is less, but faster MV.
Rank These Calibers (As Objectively as Possible)
- Thread starter The_Armed_Therapist
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The_Armed_Therapist
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I ran some numbers based solely on bullet drop from the Remington brand ammunition that went into the data for the other stuff. I'll try to make them more concrete and post them soon.
The_Armed_Therapist
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The_Armed_Therapist
Member
Round------Avg. Eff. Dist.---Long Eff. Dist.---@300y(in)---@600y(in)---$/Round---Avail.---Recoil
7mm Rem Mag--------648--------814-----------11.25------80.20-----------1.15--------189------20.5
.300 Win Mag---------609--------704-----------10.82------79.44-----------1.15--------213------24.7
.264 Win Mag---------559--------559***-------11.35------81.02-----------1.42---------14------19.2
7mm-08--------------549--------621-----------13.16------92.42-----------1.13---------75------12.4
.280 Rem-------------540--------691-----------12.47------89.43-----------1.21---------55------17.2
.260 Rem-------------523--------539-----------14.12------95.80-----------1.31---------25------12.9
.30-06 Spring---------522--------579-----------14.49-----104.69-----------0.58--------357------19.5
.270 Win-------------515-------~650-----------11.59------85.92-----------0.72--------182------17.5
.338 Win Mag---------498--------568-----------14.56------98.77-----------1.65---------75------34.0
.308 Win--------------470--------538-----------15.63-----112.23-----------0.56--------360------17.0
8mm Mag-------------439--------439***-------13.41------98.42-----------3.48----------2-------33.0
7.5x55 Swiss----------435--------499+++-------16.00-----105.70-----------0.91---------6-------13.9
.25-06----------------418--------450-----------11.30------84.98-----------1.21---------78------11.8
7x57 Mauser----------414--------414***-------15.84-----109.69-----------0.67---------41------13.6
6.5x55 Swede---------408--------408***-------17.10-----114.19-----------0.93---------38------11.5
6mm Rem-------------383--------429-----------10.96------80.21-----------1.08---------31------10.0
.243 Win-------------337--------381------------12.39------87.36-----------0.62--------164-------8.8
6.8mm SPC-----------326--------331------------14.63-----106.54-----------0.74--------38-------8.0
.303 British-----------237--------268***--------21.79-----167.47-----------0.71--------44-------14.8
.257 Roberts----------199--------199***-------19.57-----160.75-----------1.21---------25------10.0
.22-250--------------164--------181------------8.42-------80.42-----------0.58--------128-------4.7
.220 Swift------------160--------176-----------14.90-----146.99------------0.44--------44--------3.0
7.62x39mm-----------154--------157-----------24.54------189.50-----------0.32--------79--------6.9
8mm Mauser----------147--------147***-------28.58------237.61-----------0.75--------22-------13.6
.30-30 Win-----------121--------145-----------29.41------236.74-----------0.61--------125------11.4
.44 Rem Mag----------103-------105-----------61.47------427.83-----------0.51--------185-------11.3
.223 Win------------- 77---------98------------12.13------111.10-----------0.29--------356-------3.2
***Low Sample Size... Only 1 or 2 loads offered by Remington
+++Samples derived by alternative means
Again, just to clarify for those who may not want to read through 4 pages of information, the FIRST number is the average distance at which the Remington loads for that caliber still maintains 1800f/s and 1000ft-lbs. The SECOND number is the furthest distance at which this is achieved by one of the Remington loads.
1.) This doesn't show the caliber's potential, as has been discussed. These are factory loads only.
2.) These are only loads from Remington.
3.) This also doesn't really take rifle into account.
4.) Some of those listed only have 1 load offered by Remington while the .30-06 has about 20 loads offered.
5.) Remington doesn't sell loads for two calibers about which I'm interested... 7.62x54R and 7.5x55 Swiss.
***ADDED***
With the same Remington Shoot! program (and the Hornady Calculator a few times), I entered the bullet drop information at 300y and 600y. This is pretty straightforward. For most of them, I averaged at least 2 very similar loads for a given round (ie, a 150, a 165, and a 180 grain .308).
The $/round is not meant to be conclusively accurate of price, necessarily. The main point of that number is to judge as closely as possible what the different rounds cost in relation to each other. For this, I just went to CheaperThanDirt.com (I know their not the best source to buy ammo, but they have a massive selection) and found the cheapest brass ammo that they had. Since only a few rounds are offered in steel casings (and many guns and shooters don't like the steel), I excluded them to be fair. Next, I simply posted the number of products offered by CTD for each round. This is not very objective, but I think paints a fairly accurate picture of which ones you're likely to find in any given store... One problem with this is that CTD seems to post multiples of the same product for some reason of which I'm not aware.
Lastly, I used information at (http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm) for recoil, averaging the recoil energy for some if multiples were listed. I also tried to take the weights of the rifles listed into consideration to get as accurate an "average" recoil as possible.
7mm Rem Mag--------648--------814-----------11.25------80.20-----------1.15--------189------20.5
.300 Win Mag---------609--------704-----------10.82------79.44-----------1.15--------213------24.7
.264 Win Mag---------559--------559***-------11.35------81.02-----------1.42---------14------19.2
7mm-08--------------549--------621-----------13.16------92.42-----------1.13---------75------12.4
.280 Rem-------------540--------691-----------12.47------89.43-----------1.21---------55------17.2
.260 Rem-------------523--------539-----------14.12------95.80-----------1.31---------25------12.9
.30-06 Spring---------522--------579-----------14.49-----104.69-----------0.58--------357------19.5
.270 Win-------------515-------~650-----------11.59------85.92-----------0.72--------182------17.5
.338 Win Mag---------498--------568-----------14.56------98.77-----------1.65---------75------34.0
.308 Win--------------470--------538-----------15.63-----112.23-----------0.56--------360------17.0
8mm Mag-------------439--------439***-------13.41------98.42-----------3.48----------2-------33.0
7.5x55 Swiss----------435--------499+++-------16.00-----105.70-----------0.91---------6-------13.9
.25-06----------------418--------450-----------11.30------84.98-----------1.21---------78------11.8
7x57 Mauser----------414--------414***-------15.84-----109.69-----------0.67---------41------13.6
6.5x55 Swede---------408--------408***-------17.10-----114.19-----------0.93---------38------11.5
6mm Rem-------------383--------429-----------10.96------80.21-----------1.08---------31------10.0
.243 Win-------------337--------381------------12.39------87.36-----------0.62--------164-------8.8
6.8mm SPC-----------326--------331------------14.63-----106.54-----------0.74--------38-------8.0
.303 British-----------237--------268***--------21.79-----167.47-----------0.71--------44-------14.8
.257 Roberts----------199--------199***-------19.57-----160.75-----------1.21---------25------10.0
.22-250--------------164--------181------------8.42-------80.42-----------0.58--------128-------4.7
.220 Swift------------160--------176-----------14.90-----146.99------------0.44--------44--------3.0
7.62x39mm-----------154--------157-----------24.54------189.50-----------0.32--------79--------6.9
8mm Mauser----------147--------147***-------28.58------237.61-----------0.75--------22-------13.6
.30-30 Win-----------121--------145-----------29.41------236.74-----------0.61--------125------11.4
.44 Rem Mag----------103-------105-----------61.47------427.83-----------0.51--------185-------11.3
.223 Win------------- 77---------98------------12.13------111.10-----------0.29--------356-------3.2
***Low Sample Size... Only 1 or 2 loads offered by Remington
+++Samples derived by alternative means
Again, just to clarify for those who may not want to read through 4 pages of information, the FIRST number is the average distance at which the Remington loads for that caliber still maintains 1800f/s and 1000ft-lbs. The SECOND number is the furthest distance at which this is achieved by one of the Remington loads.
1.) This doesn't show the caliber's potential, as has been discussed. These are factory loads only.
2.) These are only loads from Remington.
3.) This also doesn't really take rifle into account.
4.) Some of those listed only have 1 load offered by Remington while the .30-06 has about 20 loads offered.
5.) Remington doesn't sell loads for two calibers about which I'm interested... 7.62x54R and 7.5x55 Swiss.
***ADDED***
With the same Remington Shoot! program (and the Hornady Calculator a few times), I entered the bullet drop information at 300y and 600y. This is pretty straightforward. For most of them, I averaged at least 2 very similar loads for a given round (ie, a 150, a 165, and a 180 grain .308).
The $/round is not meant to be conclusively accurate of price, necessarily. The main point of that number is to judge as closely as possible what the different rounds cost in relation to each other. For this, I just went to CheaperThanDirt.com (I know their not the best source to buy ammo, but they have a massive selection) and found the cheapest brass ammo that they had. Since only a few rounds are offered in steel casings (and many guns and shooters don't like the steel), I excluded them to be fair. Next, I simply posted the number of products offered by CTD for each round. This is not very objective, but I think paints a fairly accurate picture of which ones you're likely to find in any given store... One problem with this is that CTD seems to post multiples of the same product for some reason of which I'm not aware.
Lastly, I used information at (http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm) for recoil, averaging the recoil energy for some if multiples were listed. I also tried to take the weights of the rifles listed into consideration to get as accurate an "average" recoil as possible.
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meanmrmustard
Member
Cool chart. Shame you couldn't track down the highest horsepower factory loads, and run those numbers vs the chart you've given here. That's be an interesting lot of info, seeing how higher amped rounds fair against not only each other, but other manufacturers of the same caliber. Yeah, you might wanna get started.
barnbwt
member
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- Aug 14, 2011
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I'll be reloading for 30-06 and 7.5 Swiss in addition to .308 now. I intend to use the same bullet for all three, as well as the same powder. Powder charge will be that which provides an accuracy compromise across all 5 rifles (this is merely for an experiment, but I suspect it will still be quite good). The fact I can even suggest this says a lot about the qualities of at least these three chamberings...
Now I just need to get me a 7.5 French, and I think I'll have all of the identical/incompatible WWII MBR cartridges about wrapped up
TCB
(I'm thinking about using some type of permanent chemical-etch to better differentiate the casings for reloading, anybody got any suggestions?)
Now I just need to get me a 7.5 French, and I think I'll have all of the identical/incompatible WWII MBR cartridges about wrapped up
TCB
(I'm thinking about using some type of permanent chemical-etch to better differentiate the casings for reloading, anybody got any suggestions?)
meanmrmustard
Member
I know I've downplayed the Swiss based solely on paper and numbers. Now that I actually own a rifle chambered in it, I'm sad I never gave it a fair shake. I knew .308 and /06 were performers, but surely anything with "Swiss" in the name was anemic at best. Wrong.I'll be reloading for 30-06 and 7.5 Swiss in addition to .308 now. I intend to use the same bullet for all three, as well as the same powder. Powder charge will be that which provides an accuracy compromise across all 5 rifles (this is merely for an experiment, but I suspect it will still be quite good). The fact I can even suggest this says a lot about the qualities of at least these three chamberings...
Now I just need to get me a 7.5 French, and I think I'll have all of the identical/incompatible WWII MBR cartridges about wrapped up
TCB
(I'm thinking about using some type of permanent chemical-etch to better differentiate the casings for reloading, anybody got any suggestions?)
Especially when hand loaded, it is no longer the "tired out .308" that I've heard it referred to, and what prompted me to buy a K31 was some friends on longrangehunting.com, who believe that even with factory loads, the 7.5 Swiss is more than capable of humane deer and elk kills at distance. YouTube has many videos of fellas target shooting with this round out past 1000 yards, I hope to do so myself some day.
It has more case capacity than /06, and can be loaded to safe pressure levels that will help it exceed even the .308 win. It also does hell to 3/8 steel plate at 100 yards, so I suggest backing up or going thicker!
Also, one round that wasn't in this listing, that I find pretty awesome, is the .243 wssm.
The_Armed_Therapist
Member
I am aware of the fact that rounds like 6.5x55, 7.5x55, 8mm Mauser, and .303 British are much better when hand-loaded at home; but for the first time, I'm starting to think that I'd like to reload. It'll probably have to wait until after grad school, though. There are a few reasons I'm starting to change my mind on reloading... I like the old bolt rifles--the K31, Swedish Mauser, Enfield (especially the Enfield!)--more than I like modern bolt rifles. They all have their own personalities, whereas the modern ones mostly feel the same to me. I swear I couldn't tell the difference between a Remington 700 and a Savage Axis if it weren't on a tag or written on the barrel. Additionally, I'm loony and like having sights on a rifle. I'd prefer both peep sights and a scope.
It also makes me a little bit sad to see these old WW rounds lagging so far behind the others like the .30-06, .270, .308, .300 mag, 7mm, etc, knowing that they can all be loaded to the same, or similar, capabilities.
It also makes me a little bit sad to see these old WW rounds lagging so far behind the others like the .30-06, .270, .308, .300 mag, 7mm, etc, knowing that they can all be loaded to the same, or similar, capabilities.
The_Armed_Therapist
Member
Mustard, I think I'm getting a little burnt out by this exercise. ... Not sure if I have the motivation to take it the step further that you mentioned. But you should feel free to use my chart to do it!
... Not sure if I have the motivation to take it the step further that you mentioned. But you should feel free to use my chart to do it! meanmrmustard
Member
I may do so after supper.Mustard, I think I'm getting a little burnt out by this exercise.
The_Armed_Therapist
Member
***Just realized I mixed up .222 Rem and .220 Swift. I used the numbers for .220 swift and called it .222 Rem. I just made the change.
Kachok
Member
Yeah if you handload one of those golden oldies it can quickly become a true modern high performance round. This is especially true of the 7x57 and 6.5x55, these cartrages are NOT for beginners though, ammo can be hard to find for some and factory ammo is often way underpowered. For someone starting out (aka not handloading) keep it simple, 270 for deer on the open plains, 308 for deer in the woods, 243 for the recoil shy, 30-30 for the thick brush, or the 30-06 for larger game, that makes it pretty simple.
The_Armed_Therapist
Member
In addition to those that you mentioned, this thread has really made the .25-06 and the 7mm-08 intriguing to me. .22-50 as well, but obviously not for deer-sized critters.
meanmrmustard
Member
22-250? Another fine deer round for those that place their shots where it counts, and keep in mind the effective range of the cartridge. YMMV, but no argument as to it being more than deadly enough for yotes.
Kachok
Member
25-06 and 7mm-08 are specialty sissy kickers, the 25-06 gives 270 win performance (some say a tad higher) in a lighter recoiling package, the 7mm-08 actually resembles the 7x57 more then it's parent cartrage the 308, it drives medium/high SD bullets at more reasonable speeds from short barrels and in a short action, making it a darn near ideal genral purpose compact, low recoil rifle, it ranks right up there with the 6.5x55 on the awesome sissy kicker scale
The_Armed_Therapist
Member
I'm OK with sissy kickers. Recoil doesn't bother me much, but I'm sure my wife, kids, and others I take shooting occasionally will appreciate the lower recoil. LOL... Even for myself, it's hard to imagine shooting past 300y with a heavy recoiling rifle.
Kachok
Member
I don't mind 30-06/7mm RM level recoil, but if I can get a lighter kicking rifle to do the same thing I prefer the sissy kicker too, for deer give me a 6.5x55, 7mm-08 or 25-05 any day. My 30-06 stays loaded with heavy controlled expansion bullets for much larger game, that is what it is good at anyway.
I think the .270 has the edge when it can launch a 130gr. bullet as fast as or faster than a .25-06 can a 115gr. bullet. I'd go for the .257 Roberts for sissy kicking.
Kachok
Member
According to my manuals the 25-06 has a very very slight advantage with 115 vs 130gr and with 100gr vs 110 but the difference is so slight you would never notice it without a chrono.
The_Armed_Therapist
Member
I learned to shoot a rifle on a Mosin m44. Everything else I've ever tried, besides a .50BMG, is just simply not a big deal. I have a PTR-91 (.308) that is absurdly mild on recoil... less is felt than in my SKS or Marlin .44mag. But, I did have a lightweight Savage .308 for a while that was closer to the Mosin in recoil. Of course, I didn't really grasp the concept of heavier and lighter loads at the time and I was using heavy factory loads.
Same thing with handguns. My first real handgun experience was with a snubby .357. Then, my second (the first that I owned) was a snubby .44spl. Coming from this background, I've had a hard time understanding when people say the .40 is too snappy for them. LOL
Same thing with handguns. My first real handgun experience was with a snubby .357. Then, my second (the first that I owned) was a snubby .44spl. Coming from this background, I've had a hard time understanding when people say the .40 is too snappy for them. LOL
The_Armed_Therapist
Member
I guess from a practical point-of-view, if a .243 is just as effective on deer up to 300/350 yards as a .30-06, why use the .30-06? Even those who are used to heavy recoil are still susceptible to developing a flinch without continuing to pay close attention to technique. I have little interest in the 7mm mag or .300 win mag, the two that top my list.
meanmrmustard
Member
Makes sense, unless you hunt bigger deer (say Texas deer with big racks and little bodies vs Missouri deer that are built like mules), or larger animals in general. I think .243 is a good choice and it fills it's roll well. The 30/06 is effective, my dad uses it exclusively for a few decades now, but IMO having quartered deer for him, it's overly destructive with several different tips, and meat gets lost.
Best round I've experienced thus far for tissue destruction with minimal to no meat loss is the .260 Remington. It's a dynamo.
My preferred round inside 200 yards is .223 rem, but farther out I'd rather a .260 or /06, they just happen to kill things farther out, but the .243 can too, especially the wssm.
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When I have a deer in my sights, I am thinking "geeze I have a deer in my sights"...not "this recoil might hurt". Pretty much the ultimate surprise break IMO. Shooting a .30-06 offhand is nothing. Shooting a .30-06 offhand in a hunting situation is pretty much unnoticeable. Shooting it off the bench 10 or 15 times is what tends to give one a tender shoulder.
Actualy your 180gr .277 cal bullet was round nose and flat based so it had pretty horrible external ballistics for a bullet of that SD, there are 250gr 30 cals too but they share the same problem. No you want as heavy as possible without having to give up good low drag shape and still stabilize in standard rifling, in the case of the .270 that is 150gr, in the 6.5mms that is 140gr and in the 30 cals that is about 210gr. Yeah your avarage hunter does not use custom handloads but I would guess that there are alot more then 3 or 4 of us
Yes, there are more than 3 or 4 guys using custom handloads. However I suspect that the number of guys using a 200 grain bullet handload on whitetails is pretty darn rare. Rare enough to not be of any significance to general discussions on performance.
Second, the 180 grain 270 bullet may well not have a great ballistic shape, however my point remains that to compare a 200 grain handload to a 130 grain factory load is extremely flawed. It is unfair to compare handload to factory load in general. It is also unfair to compare an extremely unusual bullet selection for the purpose of hunting white tail to the standard.
IF you are going to compare your handloaded 200 grain 30-06 to a 270, then you need to make a fair comparison and find a 270 handload that uses AT LEAST a 150 grain bullet...if not heavier...AND one that has a similarly good aerodynamic profile.
The fact that to 'beat' the 270 winchester standard off the shelf deer load you have to go to such an odd-ball 30-06 load says a lot about the capabilities of the good old 270
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