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Rapid fire

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Stew0576, Sep 21, 2019.

  1. Stew0576

    Stew0576 Addicted

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    I'm still struggling with rapid fire, I'm deadly out to 30 yards with my 9mm (can put them all in a 3 inch bullseye) slow fire but rapid fire is another thing, the following picks are from 7 yards

    30 rounds
    KIMG0244.JPG

    90 rounds
    KIMG0246.JPG

    150 rounds
    KIMG0249.JPG

    Really frustrating
     
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  2. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

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    Start slow. And slowly increase your speed a little at a time.
    You want to keep your technique good. But you want to get faster.

    I’m working on this too.
    So I do slow, then faster
    Then slow
    Then faster
    Then faster
    Then slow
    Etc

    Then repeat until I’m not accurate enough for what I’m trying to do.

    But think about what you’re doing and how to improve your skills. In other words practice with purpose and thought.
     
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  3. StrawHat

    StrawHat Member

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    There used to be a training target around that would “analyze” your group location. You are grouping low and left. That target can tell you what is wrong.

    From where I sit, you need to adjust your sights.

    Kevin
     
  4. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

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    Really?
    How can you say that?
    It could also be grip. And if he’s hitting the center of the target slow he could be have bad finger position.

    I agree those targets are excellent, but if his technique is good slow it’s not the sights. It’s him needing to work on improving technique when he shoots fast.
     
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  5. shoobe01

    shoobe01 Member

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    Define slow and rapid fire.

    Also, most defensive (or offensive) shooting training focuses on 2-3 quick shots as followups, not rapid fire generally, until empty. If that helps.

    Generally, a "rapid fire" error is a slow fire error you are just correcting for as you press the trigger sloooowly. Watch yourself in slowfire and if you are twisting, etc. to compensate, stop it. Fix your grip, change your weak hand pressure, move your finger engagement point, etc. to get it so once sights on target, you JUST pull the trigger and hit.

    Once you can do that, you can break that first shot faster. Then, we work on recoil control, to make follow ups faster and As Accurate as the first shot.

    And then you just have to keep working on it regularly for the rest of your life :)
     
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  6. film495

    film495 Member

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    I was dry firing the other day, and just practicing grip. I held one of my pistols in front of me so I could see the top of the pistol, and watched the front of the barrel as I tried different grips and doing trigger pulls. depending on position, the side to side movement of the barrel went from 1/4" - to barely noticeable. I was kind of surprised by this. If I were you I'd try some slight grip adjustments, to see if you can take the oscillation out of the rapid fire recoil. if I had to guess, something is throwing your recoil a little to the right, and the shots being to the left is just the compensation for that - being low is just timing. If I had to make up an exercise for this - I'd make a target that was just a line down the center, and try to make all the shots hit on that vertical line in rapid fire. again, I don't know how to do this - just spit balling, but if I had more time and place to practice, this is how I would approach this.
     
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  7. WrongHanded
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    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    On the bright side, if the target were an attacker, I think they'd be stopped pretty effectively with that shooting. :thumbup: But if you're not happy with that level of accuracy, slow down and only fire as fast as you can hit within the area you are aiming at.

    I like to look at it this way: Keyholing isn't going to do much good, because once you have shot that part out of someone, it's not there to be shot out again with the next bullet. Hitting the area of vitals (heart, lungs, spine, and brain) is important. So only shoot fast enough that you can hit this area with each shot. The first shot is the most important one, so put it where it needs to go. After the first shot is fired, the second shot becomes the most important one, so put that where it needs to go too.

    One shot at a time; each as quickly as you can, to where it needs to go.
     
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  8. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    How rapid?
    How many shots in a row?
    I shoot IDPA and USPSA. At 7 yards, doubles and triples ought to hold the 8 ring.
    At PPC cadence, 12 shots in 25 seconds with draw and reload, they ought to be 10s or at least 9s on that reduced target.

    What gun? You have the low-left syndrome common to Glocks and other junk triggers that are sensitive to hand and trigger placement, also subject to jerking the trigger and pushing against the (anticipated) recoil.

    Gradual increase in speed concentrate on the techniques that work in slow fire.
     
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  9. Enfielder

    Enfielder Member

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    From an anatomical perspective, you've killed your target. You may or may not have done a lot of central nervous system damage due to the unpredictable actions of a bullet in meat, but a magazine full of 9mm in your concentrated area is most likely going to incapacitate your target. They will certainly bleed to deat with all the liver hits.
     
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  10. straightshooterjake

    straightshooterjake Member

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    When trying to pick up speed while maintaining control, I find that dry fire is very helpful. If you dry fire briskly, can you see yourself moving the sights? If so, slow it down a little and try to dry fire perfectly. Think about grip and trigger movement and see if one of those things is causing movement during your firing cycle.

    Dry fire helps for at least two reasons. First, it makes it easier to focus on form without anticipating the shot. And second, if you are making a mistake at the instant the trigger breaks, they you can see that instead of having it obscured by the recoil. Even after you make progress on perfect dry fire, it can take a while to execute that performance with live ammo. But once you understand the issue, everything will come together with continued practice.

    I also want to caution slightly about shooting large groups that are in the wrong place. We all make consistent mistakes as part of the learning process. But I try not to repeat the mistakes too much. Shooting a lot of shots in the wrong place can inadvertently be practicing bad form and make the issue even more ingrained.

    If I am making a consistent mistake then I make a change after a few shots. I might do some dry fire, or slow down, or switch to a .22, or make some other change. I accept that making the mistake is part of learning. But I don't let myself make it many times in a row.

    I also either change targets or tape them up so that I can track my shots. I don't want to make the mistake but not realize it. Even if you pull two thirds of your shots, it is a big improvement when you learn to feel the mistake and know which shots you pulled. You need feedback after every shot to learn that feeling.
     
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  11. JeffG

    JeffG Member

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    First of all, give yourself a break. It's a handgun. Would you want to be standing in front of that target? Nope. Slow down and see if your point of impact changes. If so, it's a trigger control problem. Try releasing the trigger only to the sear between shots, it will shave down time, and disturb the aim of your gun less. A shooter and his/her handgun, in that combination have limitations. Keep shooting, you will improve.
     
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  12. Stew0576

    Stew0576 Addicted

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    Thanks for all the advice, gave me something to reflect on, I was firing as soon as the front sight hit the bullseye after the recoil, 3 mags of 10 rounds at a time
    I'm using a sd9ve for this test, will be trying with my xds 45 next time to see if it's gun related or just me, pretty sure I'm yanking the trigger, I had a big problem with that during slow fire but have overcome it after shooting many thousand bullets, think that trying to shoot fast brings it back
     
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  13. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Rapid fire shows up issues with trigger technique that can be masked during slowfire. When you're shooting slowfire, if you feel yourself start to flinch, you can stop the trigger pull and start again. You can see the gun move if you get too rough with the trigger.

    When you're shooting rapid fire, trigger technique has to be perfect because you can't just slow down if you think you're about to flinch, and you don't want to wait until the gun is totally still to fire the next shot or you'll be back to shooting slow fire.

    Lots of dryfire practice--preferably with a long trigger with a heavy pull weight is how you fix your trigger technique issues. Once you can consistently pull a heavy, long trigger smoothly and rapidly, other triggers are pretty easy.

    Making sure you have a good grip will also help. If you have good control of the gun, it's easier to find the sights as the gun comes out of recoil and it's easier to control the trigger.
     
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  14. JeeperCreeper

    JeeperCreeper Member

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    I'm pretty decent at speed shooting a handgun. Not world class, but I can hang.

    For me, I get in a rhythm with my gun.

    I really learn the trigger and ride my reset out. Once I time that, I do double taps. Then triple taps.

    Then I start transitioning targets.

    I think of my speed at the range like a chugging train...... Chug chug chug and the faster I go

    Edit: just saw you were shooting an SD9ve and then trying an XDS. Those will be tough to wrangle. I know it's not the arrow but the archer, but a trash string ain't gonna set you up nicely.
     
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  15. Pyro

    Pyro Member

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    Make sure to scream "that's my purse!" before you let it rip. Helps instill that warrior mindset. :)

    Ok to be serious, outside the good feedback already mentioned I've found strengthing my hands and forearms helped me better control rapid handgun fire.
     
  16. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    The target you are referring to was actually a bullseye target and not meant to analyze shooting like the OP is doing. Most shooters on the NET are not aware that target is for bullseye shooting.
     
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  17. StrawHat

    StrawHat Member

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    I’ll take your word for it.

    Kevin
     
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  18. Charlie Horse

    Charlie Horse Member

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    OK. Extra points awarded for the Bobby Hill reference!:rofl:
     
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  19. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    There are a few possibilities for what is being seen here. Taking you at your word that this only happens in rapid fire lets us narrow the range of probable explanations. In order of likelihood, with the first more likely than the second, and the first two far more likely than the third:

    POSSIBILITY #1: In an attempt to get the gun back on target faster, you are "muscling" it with your right hand and mistiming the input. You are trying to actively counter the recoil before the recoil begins. This is extremely common. This often comes along with a flinch in slow fire. The fact that it is only showing up in rapid fire means this is probably not a true blink-involved flinch, but just an improper understanding of recoil control with handguns.

    If this is the problem, a correct understanding (and then application) of handgun recoil control is the answer. First, understand that the way to control recoil is not primarily through the input of counteractive forces, but through continuously exerting neutral control. What does that mean?

    Think about walking a dog that is not well leash-trained. Or holding the hand of an unruly 5 year old as you walk through the toy aisle of the grocery store. They may pull left, they may pull right, they may go forwards or backwards. You can either end up jerking the leash or the kid's hand in a series of small tug-of-war contests. Both you and the dog or child will not move in a straight line... it will be miserable.

    However, if you are significantly stronger than the dog or the child, then you could just focus on holding your hand in a fixed position relative to your body as you walk. Rather than actively jerking the kid or dog around, you simply hold your point of control static. You don't let the dog move the handle of the leash... it stays next to your right hip, if that's where your hand is supposed to be. Your hand may oscilate a little as the dog or kid bounces around, but you are not going to let them move you or your hand's position in space. You have positive, neutral control. No matter which direction they apply force in, your hand and arm muscles are already engaged, locked in place, and not going to allow much movement to occur.

    That's what you want for your grip on the gun. You're not going to let the frame move vertically in recoil and then push it back down. You're not going to try to precisely time a big push down. You're going to hold your hands still in space. The gun will oscilate, but the sights will come back on their own when the slide closes. That's the attitude/concept you want.

    Second, in order to make this happen, you do need to apply a substantial amount of that continuous neutral force to the gun with your left hand. You need to get your left hand in a position of leverage, and you need it to stay stuck to the gun frame in a fixed relationship. If you have to re-grip the gun after a shot, you have lost grip and your left hand did nothing for you. Because the left hand's relationship to the gun is a "friction fit," rather than "interference fit," you will need to squeeze hard. Hard enough that, when you take your left hand away from the gun, the imprint of any checkering on the left side of the gun should be visible in your left palm's heel for a few seconds.

    POSSIBILITY #2: The gun is firing, recoiling, and then returning past the target, and you're timing the shot to coincide with the "dip" at the slide's close. Watch a slo-motion video of a semi-auto pistol... most of the movement of the frame actually comes at the times when the slide slams into it at the rear of its travel (produces a muzzle-flip), and then again when the slide comes home (produces a muzzle dip). It is possible that you are triggering the shot during that dip. The fact that the group/tendency is towards the lower left makes this substantially less likely than the first possibility, but, if you don't have anything like enough left-hand grip force, it's possible.

    Three possible solutions if this is the case. First, improve your grip so that the total range of motion of the gun is reduced (see above). Second, start having awareness of sights throughout the recoil arc, including the dip at the end. You can't just see the sights on the target at the time you decide to fire... you have to maintain awareness through ignition, and then throughout recovery to the next shot.

    Once you're able to see the sights moving through this arc, you should be able to know when you can or cannot trigger the shot. If your gun (even after you've done everything you can do with your current level of grip strength) has a lot of dip, then you probably have to wait out the dip to fire the next shot.... or change the gun's setup to reduce the dip. Competitors in speed shooting games typically tune their recoil spring so that the return of the gun is as neutral as possible.

    Most handguns come oversprung on the recoil spring for optimal speed shooting. Stiff springs can help with reliability with full-power ammo feeding, and many manufacturers assume that users won't ever actually change a recoil spring, so they think it's better to start off with a lot of "extra" spring so there's still enough spring force left to close the slide even after 20k rounds.

    If you're willing to take more responsibility/control over your gun's setup and how it relates to your ammo, you can play around with lighter springs to reduce the closing dip.

    POSSIBILITY #3: I think this is unlikely to be the real cause, but it's possible that your grip naturally points the gun low-and-left, and that, during slow-fire, you are manually aiming the gun correctly, but it is "returning" to a more "natural" position during rapid fire. Since I think people are actually able to adjust their index (place the gun points without conscious effort) pretty easily, I doubt this is the issue, but you could play around with your right hand's placement on the gun (rotationally mainly). Low odds proposition here. I hesitate to even mention it.

    ETA: There's also a chance that you've got a finger placement on the trigger that is causing a bunch of lateral input, but the fact that you're not having these issues at all in slowfire makes me doubt this is the issue.
     
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  20. Browning

    Browning Member

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    This?
    75E7DED9-8E41-4AB7-B22A-596D5DFD0EB1.jpeg
     
  21. Browning

    Browning Member

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    In order to get faster you’re going to be having to miss a little. That’s because you’re trying to exceed what you’re capable and grow as a shooter.

    So shoot slow groups where you hit every time and then keep picking up the pace each time. Get a shot timer. That’s going to be the best measure of your performance.

    Shooting at steel helps too. Gives you instant feedback.

    You’re going to have to get to the ragged edge of your performance. Then dial it back slightly to where you’re hitting, but doing it faster.

    Shooting at the same targets at the same speed and at the same distance from the same position doesn’t help you grow as a shooter. Wouldn’t help you grow as a driver, as a musician or in anything else either.
     
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  22. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Gawd, that thing is a blight on the collective consciousness of shooters. Absolutely, totally useless for two-handed, rapid fire shooting.

    Giving that thing to the general pistol-shooting populace is like handing car drivers a manual for the proper care and feeding of horses. Pretty soon you've got folks jamming oats in their gas tanks and hammering horseshoes onto their tires.
     
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  23. Jack Ryan

    Jack Ryan Member

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    You don't go from ten shots in ten minutes to ten shots in 5 seconds on the first day.

    I don't think I need a "chart" or a book to analyze those targets. You are practicing MISSING. Stop practicing MISSING and start practicing HITTING on target, what you are aiming for or WANT to hit. The more you practice what you want to be good at, the better you'll be and the faster it will happen. Just don't miss, every time you miss, you just practiced missing.
     
  24. Browning

    Browning Member

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    Lol ... I more meant “is that the target you’re talking about”.
     
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  25. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    I know, I know.
     
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