Real Black Powder VS. Substitutes

[kdave21]

Okay guys I just ordered my first BP Pistol!! It's a Rem 1858 from Cabela's (still on sale for 189.99 w/free shipping before Nov. 1oth FYI).

I am going to be having a lot of questions over the next couple weeks I'm sure, but for now, lets start with one that has been most on my mind.

Today I went to my local sporting goods store and to my surprise, they dont carry BP, only Pyrodex. Afer reading through countless threads I realize this is a common issue and there's a bunch of hazmat issues yada yada yada.

Here's the question.... Make a case for your preference of BP or a substitute. (If substitute, please state brand). I am trying to figure out if it is worth the effort to track down real BP in a town that seems to carry none, or if a substitute would be better or at least as good.

PS I like the idea of lots of smoke, and stinky smells dont necessarily bother me, so feel free to include your observations of these characteristics also!)

PPS Whats up with these guys online stating that Pyrodex is safer than BP? Is that real, and if so worried should I be about the safety of having a pound of two of BP in the basement?

 

[BHP FAN]

In my experience, only Triple Seven behaves the closest to BP, it's slightly more powerfull,and slightly easier to clean up,and it smells closer to the real thing than other subs [not like burnt plastic like Pyrodeck] and it also produces billowy clouds of smoke. What's not to like? I still prefer Goex,Elephant or Swiss real black powder,but if Triple Seven were all I could get, I'd use it,no problems.

 

[Acorn Mush]

Whats up with these guys online stating that Pyrodex is safer than BP? Is that real, and if so worried should I be about the safety of having a pound of two of BP in the basement?

Pyrodex is only "safer" in that the ignition point is higher than black powder. Pyrodex can therefore be shipped and stored for retail sale under much less restrictive rules than the real thing. As far as being concerned about storing a pound or two of real black powder in your basement (or elsewhere), just keep it in the original container with the cap screwed on tightly, away from sources of ignition or other combustables, etc. Lots of guys use surplus ammo cans to store their powder because they are watertight.

Good luck with your new 1858! I bought one several years back to play with. I lengthened and slightly straightened the trigger to suit my style of grip, and opened up the nipple recesses to allow the use of a Cash snail-type capper. Its not as accurate as my ROA, but still is a lot of fun to shoot. Have fun!

 

[arcticap]

double post - edit

 

[arcticap]

Triple Seven behaves the closest to BP, it's slightly more powerfull,and slightly easier to clean up,and it smells closer to the real thing

Pyrodex is the only sub. powder that contains sulphur just like BP does and Pyrodex fouling does share a distinctive odor which 777 doesn't produce at all because it doesn't contain any.

The velocity of an equal volume of Pyrodex P is closer to the velocity of BP than what 777 produces.
And Pyrodex also creates more smoke than 777.
So I believe that Pyrodex P is actually much closer to being like real BP than 777.

 

[BHP FAN]

Personal preference in my case. I used Pyrodex back when it first hit the scene,and wasn't that impressed,and haven't seen anything to change that impression since.Friends have given it to me,and I've politely used it, then given it to the cannon shooters to use up.I can't abide the burnt plastic smell,lack of power,inconsistant velocity,and if it did not make such good fertilizer,I could not think of anything good to say about it.

 

[arcticap]

Pyrodex P produces about 100 fps more velocity from revolvers than Goex does.
Maybe the formula has changed over the years to improve it. Never the less the smell of it burning does contain sulphur and the residue can be somewhat greenish too.
Maybe the "smell of plastic" is highly subjective?

 

[BHP FAN]

Arcticap,I've read your posts here,and you are quite knowledgeable about our sport,and I generally respect your opinion,as you are generally right on the mark,so please...don't take my opinion of the Plastic Powder as any reflection on my opinion of you.You generally know your stuff forwards and back,but I just don't much care for Pyrodex.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Nothin' is like Black Powder but Black Powder

Welcome Kdave21

If you want the right stuff to start with get Black Powder not the Substitues.
Google Black Powder or go here and order on line to your door... http://www.powderinc.com/
There is nothing that is it's equal in performance, accuracy, and sure fired dependability.

Sure other stuff subs will work but not near as well ... I shoot Black powder Guns C&B and Cartridges. I've stuck with Black Powder for over a quarter of a century.

 

[BCRider]

One of the guys that shoots CAS with me is using black in the pistols and shot shells. But for some reason he uses Pyrodex in his rifle rounds. I instantly noticed how there isn't quite as much smoke as with black and that the smoke it makes has a brownish tinge to it instead of virgin white.

I have not used or seen anyone using 777 so I can't comment on it.

 

[whosyrdaddy]

This topic was raised here awhile back and was discussed at great length. Unfortunately, it wandered off topic somewhere in the 180+ posts making it more akin to panning for gold than the pot-o-gold that it could have been.

This, IMHO, is the biggest nugget of wisdom to be found in that thread.

Originally posted by Pulp:

Thread: Why real BP? View Single Post
October 4, 2009, 01:25 PM #73
Pulp
Member
Join Date: August 30, 2007
Location: Valliant, OK
Posts: 356



I reckon I'm weird 'cause I like any gunpowder that allows me to shoot my revolvers, shotguns and rifles. If it goes bang I like it. If it hits where I'm aiming I like it even better.

Seriously, BP is my favorite. I use PyrodexRS in my CAS shotgun loads 'cause after deer season here in Oklahoma I can get it at Walmart for about $10.00/lb. It's just plain cheaper to load, and shotguns eat a lot of powder.

I've loaded 777 in .44-40, 1.9cc. I can tell a difference, it is a hotter load than 2.2cc of Goex. Once I even loaded some FFFg 777. Let's just say I'm glad I shot it in my Rossi '92 first. That stuff was SERIOUS hot. I'm guessin' 1600 to 1700 fps. It wasn't a blind experiment, I called Hodgdon's, asked some questions, told him which gun I planned to use, and he said "go ahead and try it."

I did a test with my T/C Hawken, shooting the same amount of APP, 777, Pyrodex, and Goex FFg and FFFg. I don't remember the velocities off hand, but 777 was the fastest, then Pryodex, then Goex, and APP was the slowest.

Here's my take. If authenticity is important to you then use the Holy Black. If you just want to have fun, use whatever you want. If GOTC likes 777, has good luck with it and is having fun, then I'm all for it. If someone hates 777 well, there are other products. I don't like liver, but I bet there's someone here that does.

Broadbill, buy a pound or two of each. You'll figger out which is best for you. Doesn't matter what's best for me. And you'll be supporting the manufacturers, which is always a good thing.
__________________
Pulp

World's Worst Cowboy Action Shooter
Graduate of Sawyer's School of Shooting

Don't cheat yourself by limiting your options based on somebody else's prejudice.

 

[Das Jaeger]

And

don't cheat yourself from the REAL HOLY BLACK experience by not shooting Holy Black either in your adventure finding Subs and real BP to shoot and which you like best .
That's the WHOLE POINT of shooting BP guns is to use the Holy Black , to set yourself back in time and use what they used , our Heritage our Legacy continued . Do you get that ? That is why alot of folks like the real deal to start with , then they find it shoots the best too
Sure you could use 209 primers and Pyrodex , but you sure aint getting the feel of the way it was back then , and thats the point isn't it ? Well , ok , its my point at least ....which most people are missing obviously .

Das Jaeger

 

[Voodoochile]

I preferr real Black Powder over the other stuff only because of how reliable it is in consistency & how long it can be stored & the smell it gives when I touch off the trigger is like nothing else out there but if my supply gets a little low I'll work with Pyrodex P because I've had some good luck with it & the velocities are similar to the Real Black.

I've tried 777 & the only things that I've found that keeps me from using it on a normal basis is:
(1) 777 doesn't like to be compressed that much so using it in a C&B revolver may result in FTF or a wide spread of velocities in a cylinder load.
(2) 777 really needs a good spark for reliable ignition & in some sidelocks that can be a challenge.
(3) 777 has a higher pressure wave than real black or Pyrodex so you have to watch your charges for safetys sake in some BP guns.

 

[mykeal]

I personally prefer real black powder (Goex, Swiss, Schuetzen) to any of the substitutes. There is no compelling reason for that preference. The differences between the choices are real, but there's no overriding reason to pick one over the other; it comes down to personal choice. As Pulp said:

I don't like liver, but I bet there's someone here that does.

Well, that someone is me, but I won't force him to eat some if we ever have a chance to share a meal, and I know he won't force me to eat something I don't like (if I ever find one).

So far this thread is an excellent one. Well done, fellas.

 

[kdave21]

Yes I agree with mykeal, excellent thread, thank you all for your opinions, it's a lot of fun to hear differing viewpoints and the reasons behind them. Something tells me I am going to be a BP addict, and I'm darned glad to have a great place to rub shoulders with knowledgeable shooters like yourselves. We don't have a lot of great shooting ranges around here, and the opportunities to meet up with other shooters is somewhat limited.

 

[iron horse morgan]

Kdave21,

I shoot 1851 Colts for Cowboy Action Shooting, and bought some Goex 2f black powder so I could experience the "real thing."

It shot fine and cleaned up fine.

Then I bought some Pyrodex RS because its only $12 per pound vs. $18 per pound.

It shot fine and cleaned up fine.

Then I bought some Pyrodex P just to see if there was a difference. It had more energy behind it due to the finer granulation of powder. I reduced the load a little to match what I was used to.

It shoots fine and cleans up fine.


Have fun with your new pistol!

Iron Horse Morgan

 

[Allison]

I agree with Jaeger. It's the history of it. I haven't gone hunting
since I was a kid and am more interested in the historical aspect.
I'll also admit that I get a kick out of going to the range with
my neighbor and outshooting his 9mm semi with 150 year old
technology.
Also Goex comes in that cool metal can. Let's have a show of hands.
How many of you throw your empty Goex cans away?

 

[BHP FAN]

I've got 18 emptys.I would have more,but for a while I was makeing a mini campstove out of them.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

I have tried in the past to set up a group buy of Jack's Battle Powder in the Pacific NW area, I live in Portland, Ore. From what I understand Jack is a Goex distributor who buys it bulk and packages it in his own one pound containers and sells it for $255.00 for 25 lbs including shipping and hazemat fees. Works out to be a little over $10.00 a lb. Madcratebuilder has expressed intersest in buying into a buy but we need to get more people in the PNW to buy in to make a buy. I would be in for 5 lbs so I need a commitment for the other 20 lbs. Here is he Jack's web site
http://www.jackspowderkeg.com/

 

[Hellgate]

BP has the boom and smell of history but is getting harder to find. I have shot PyroP in CAS matches using my '51 Navy 44s and unless it is well compressed (i.e. ram the ball down firmly) you can get delayed ignition. It's only a split second but if you are used to BOOM, BOOM, BOOM you will get paBOOM, paBOOM, paBOOM. BTDT. The real BP ignites more consistantly. Both corrode if not cleaned.

I shoot 777 in the Rossi 357 as the longer barrel would foul. The Snakebite bullet is the answer to BP fouling but did not reliably feed in my gun so I couldn't use it. Your mileage will vary.

 

[BHP FAN]

Snakebite is the longer bullet to give better feeding in leverguns,isn't it?

 

[iron horse morgan]

+1 on 777 in the rifle cartridges.

It allows me to load standard "smokeless-lubed" bullets without fouling the barrel. It leaves a nice soft "lube star" on the muzzle.

It also shoots fine and cleans up fine!

I got lucky with my Marlin .357 as it isn't sensitive to cartridge OAL in regards to feeding.

Iron Horse Morgan

 

[Hellgate]

BHP Fan,
It is a "big lube" bullet that carries enough lube for real gunpowder. The bullet is also longer but designed so as to allow loading into 38SPL cases but out to a longer length (closer to .357 OAL).

 

[kdave21]

Well thanks again guys for all the great advice. I checked with the president of the local black powder club, and he referred me to the secretary/treasurer. That guy told me he didnt have any to spare, and that generally he and some other guys did a group buy to spread out the costs, buying it from powderinc.com. Not knowing when the next "group buy" was going to be, impatience won the best of me and I went with Pyrodex P. Not to say I wont ever use BP though. Next time I'm at the gun show, I will be picking up a can if I can find it!
The good news: had a blast shooting it! The bad news" I was in a major time crunch and I literally only had enough time to load up 6 balls, fire em off, and then pick up my gear and go. (I didnt want to rush the first time out too much for safety reasons). Normally I wouldnt go with only that much time, but the itch to get out and shoot the darn thing was just too strong. Can't wait to get out again, I do have a couple questions but will ask those later when I have more time. Thanks again guys.

 

[Gatofeo]

Been shooting cap and ball revolvers since about 1970.
Started with DuPoint FFFG black powder. Today, I shoot Goex FFFG black powder. I also have some Pyrodex RS and P, and Hodgdon 777 on hand.
For accuracy and consistency, I use black powder of FFFG grade.
Contrary to what was posted by someone earlier, I haven't found that Pyrodex delivers a higher velocity when used volume-for-volume against black powder.
In my Colt 2nd generation 1851 Colt, 27.5 grains of FFFG is a maximum load. It's all I can get in the chamber, with just enough room left to seat the ball. No greased, felt wad is used. Velocity is about 1,000 fps with that 82-grain ball of .380 diameter.
With Pyrodex P, in an equivalent amount, I get just under 1,000 fps. Seems to me that Pyrodex is just a hair weaker than FFFG, but it may be the batch that I have. Through the years, since I bought my first can of Pyrodex in 1978, I've noticed that some lots of Pyrodex appear a little stouter or weaker than others.
Black powder typically doesn't suffer from such variation, unless it's been exposed to dampness or it was poorly made to begin with.
Sealed against moisture, and stored away from extremes of temperature, black powder can be viable for decades, perhaps even centuries.
Hodgdon 777 is okay. More powerful than black, when equal amounts are used. However, 777 is not designed to be used volume-for-volume against black powder. It is its own propellant, not a modern copy of black powder.
I'll stick with black powder as long as I can get it. It's simpler.