Real Black

[Lunie]

Ok, I was WRONG!

I picked up a Pietta 1860 Army repro. While browsing powders, I settled on Hodgdon Triple Se7en.

The Good: It shoots. It lights (#10 CCI caps). It makes decent paper cartridges. And the fouling isn't bad.

The Bad: Hodgdon has loading data for the 1860 Steel frame. They give between 20-25 grains of 777 behind a LRB. With only powder and ball, this really isn't enough to firmly seat the ball on the powder.

The Ugly: And the velocities at those load levels listed above is just about abysmal for a ~140 gr LRB.




Feeling a little burned, I bought a pound each of Schuetzen and Swiss FFFg.

I've only opened and shot the Schuetzen so far. And I LOVE it.

Does the smoke and fouling smell like eggs? Yes.

Does it smoke and foul more than 777? Yes (A little).

Does it put an unnatural smile on your face? Yes.

Can you work up to and load a full 35 grains safely? Yes.

I think I'm in love.

Gonna have to give the 777 to my uncle to use in his inline smokepole. (He currently uses 777 pellets.)



My question...

Why didn't anyone TELL ME???

Once you go Black(powder), you'll never go back!

 

[Acorn Mush]

My question...

Why didn't anyone TELL ME???

Maybe you didn't ask the right folks?

No matter. Thou hast seen the light and thy transgressions are now forgiven. Go forth and preach the Gospel of True Black.

Oh, and enjoy the daylights out of your revolver, too!

 

[Skinny 1950]

I found that the 777 has way more soot than real BP and that after about 100 shots I would have to totally disassemble the gun because it would jam up the trigger works. I have been using Goex FFFG for about two months with no such problems.

 

[Lunie]

I now understand. I have seen the light of Holy Black.



And with 777 and with black, I have been doing a complete strip, hot-soapy-water bath, followed by a quick dry in the oven.

Lastly, the "Colt" is lovingly lubed with olive oil (It is Italian made, after all. I have to resist the temptation of adding garlic...) and reassembled.

 

[Chawbaccer]

The Bad: Hodgdon has loading data for the 1860 Steel frame. They give between 20-25 grains of 777 behind a LRB. With only powder and ball, this really isn't enough to firmly seat the ball on the powder.

Always seat the ball on the powder, don't worry about them going below the chambers. If you want to seat the balls to the chamber mouth use a filler on top of the powder such as grits or cream of wheat.

 

[[email protected]]

Be sure and let us know how the Swiss works out. I think you will like it even better.

 

[Lunie]

Always seat the ball on the powder, don't worry about them going below the chambers. If you want to seat the balls to the chamber mouth use a filler on top of the powder such as grits or cream of wheat.

I understand that I need to firmly seat the ball against the powder. The problem with that is that the loads that Hodgdon recommends are too low. The rammer physically does not have enough travel. With a 20gr load of 777 (recommended on their website), the rammer simply bottoms out. With 25gr, the rammer stops just before the bottom of its stroke. IIRC, they do NOT recommend the use of an inert filler, other than a stiff (inert) wad.



And thanks. I'm anxious to try the Swiss, and I'll try to let you all know how it works out.

 

[Foto Joe]

I don't know beans about 777 but with the real stuff, don't be afraid to use filler. Inert filler will allow you to adjust your loads to suit your needs or desires.

I load a LOT of Black Powder cartridge in 45 Colt & 44 WCF (44-40). Not using filler would put me close to the original mil-spec loads which are obnoxious to say the least and painful always, but they are fun to impress your friends and family if you feel the need. To reduce my pain and expense I normally use cornmeal as a filler. It keeps the gun cooler as well.

Most serious competition shooters prefer to have the ball as close to the forcing cone as is reasonable. To do this they use filler on top of the powder. I am not a competitor nor all that serious but I do think that moving the ball closer to the chamber mouth improves accuracy.

 

[U.C.Ranger]

I was wondering if a guy could put in two wads to fill up the space?

 

[[email protected]]

You could just cut your cyclinder in half like I'm doing and not worry about it.
Will post pictures later.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

If you cut the cylinder in half, is it called a three shooter?

 

[[email protected]]

Na, It still holds six but only half the powder.

 

[Foto Joe]

Using multiple wads is fine but filler is cheaper. The more you spend on commercially produced products that can be replaced with household items that your spouse doesn't really use, the less chips you've got left over to buy the essentials. Like that gun that comes up on GunBroker that you just can't live without.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[rori]

I was also sucked in by the wanna be powders. I have a lyman great planes rifle and pyrodex was suggested. It seemed like a good idea as it was easy to get and black wasn't. I never got good groups 8" at 100 yards was about the best I could do.I just figured that was as good as all the old time rifles shot and put it on the wall as a decoration. Then I got on a website dedicated to muzzleloading rifles and heard all the bad things about the synthetics and how everyone on the site swore by the "holy black"I tried it and boy oh boy was I impressed!!!!!! I didn't know I could shoot that good!!!! Now with a patched round ball and 90gr 2f I consistantly shoot under 2" at 100, I can shoot all day without cleaning and when I get home cleaning is easy with COLD water and a little soap.I'll be hunting my elk season this year with "holy black" instead of the longbow I usually use. That stuff really works and the substitutes are really poor choices for what is really the king of powders. "Holy Black" rules.

 

[arcticap]

This favorite powder poll could always use more responses:

What's Your Favorite Powder?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=584783

 

[mykeal]

I personally much prefer real black powder, but...

rori - your experience with Pyrodex may have more to do with the infamous Lyman Great Plains Rifle break-in period than the brand of powder. GPR's are well known to require either barrel lapping or several dozen break-in rounds before they'll start grouping. Once that break-in is accomplished they are quite capable of the performance you're seeing with most any powder. In my opinion, it would be very, very unusual if the difference in groups you are seeing (8" down to 2") is due solely to Pyrodex vs real black powder.

And welcome to the forum.

 

[ElvinWarrior]

Hmmm...

Another convertist in our midst... We may have to start regulating all these new converts, I mean, they will flood the market with real BP orders, driving the price up, and the availability down !!!

Okay, I have it !!! Anyone wanting to convert to real BP must first Register with ME, and go through a 10 week training course BEFORE they are given an official ElvinWarrior permit to actually purchase real BP, exclusively from ME of course... The ElvinWarrior Powder Company !!! LOL !!!

Now that you have tasted, smelled, heard and felt the glorious thunder of real BP shaking your bones....

Now, are you brave enough for the NEXT STEP ???

The next time you fire your 50 Cal or BIGGER musket/rifle... try a mix of 75% BP mixed with 25% (By Volume), crushed dynomite !!! Talk about a kicker !!!!

LOL !!!

Of course, I'n NOT SERIOUS, that was a JOKE !!! Please DON'T load your BP gun with Dynomite, not even a mild mix !!!

Welcome aboard convert !!! Now, good hunting and have FUN !!!

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

P.S.... And remember, Real BP has many uses, it's not ONLY for punching holes in paper !!! It is excellant at blasting stumps, making your own fireworks and firecrackers, making your own fuses, and in a flash, it makes for a good substitute for flash powder in your 1890's stand up camera !!! It is also wonderfull when buried in the ground, wrapped in paper, with a fuse, about 1 foot deep, and blasting a big hole in the ground.... This can be helpfull in encoraging your neighbors to stay the hell away and mind their own business !!!

 

[U.C.Ranger]

Foto Joe,

I thought about the cost issue after I made my post. I would say you are on the money. Even though I make my own lubed wads, doubling the cost of that would be quite a bit more than the fish fry cornmeal. It was just a thought I had while doing some reading on the forum.

I load 24 grains, lubed wad, then ball in my 44. That combo does allow my ball to sink below the cylinder some but when I pull the trigger it goes boom, smoke flies, and things get dirty. I feel like a kid again. For my, that is what it is all about.

Thanks for the answer.

 

[col.lemat]

powder mix = dynamite

David; Afew months ago while shooting the LeMat in Vegas I ran out of black powder. I only had 20gr. for the shotgun barrel so to finish off the last shot of the day I added 20gr. of Pyrodex. I have always been told not to mix and match powders but did so any ways figureing black powder is at the lower end of the risk range. When I set it off the recoil was nearly four times that of a normal load. The barrel heald up without a problem, but the recoil caused the rammer to flip up out of it's detent and snap back down breaking off the retaining spring that hold the rammer in the detent.
So leason learned dont mix powders. I think most of us have heard that but do not really understand the why's.

 

[ElvinWarrior]

Col LeMat,

That was a joke, I said so in the post, I'm not that stupid as to actually load my overpriced BP rifle with dynomite !!! LOL...

Jeesh, I may be a bit daring, but I'm NOT suicidal !!!

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

 

[col.lemat]

elvin warrior

I know it a joke. I dont think anyone here would be dumb enough to actually try dynamite + it is really tightly controled here in Ca. I was just pointing out to some of the newbes that under no cercumstances do you want to mix differnt powders. Differnt granulations for black powder ok. But differnt smokeless powders (blue dot & red dot for example) or any smokeless + black, or any synthetics + black, should never be mixed. Then you are really playing with dynamite!

 

[Foto Joe]

U.C.Ranger,

If you're making your own wads then you're already beating the price of store bought. Personally, I don't use lubed wads in either front stuffers or cartridge. For the front stuffers I'm one of those greasy Crisco people, but keep in mind I live in Wyoming where air conditioning is not something that you find in most houses, including mine.

For cartridges I use Big Lube bullets that either have SPG lube on them or a mixture of Mink Oil and other secret ingredients that the maker won't share with me.

Speaking of cartridges, if you are a reloader it won't be long before you get the itch to fill one or a hundred with Black Powder, feel free to scratch that itch!!! I took my son-in-law and the grandkids out today to play with a SAA loaded with 30gr behind a 230gr LRN. You haven't lived until you've fired a 45 Colt with REAL ammunition, none of this wussy smokeless or TrailBoss!!

Have fun!!

 

[SleazyRider]

Ahhhhhhhh ...

 

[mykeal]

BP porn.

(giggle)

 

[arcticap]

...I was just pointing out to some of the newbes that under no cercumstances do you want to mix differnt powders. Differnt granulations for black powder ok. But differnt smokeless powders (blue dot & red dot for example) or any smokeless + black, or any synthetics + black, should never be mixed. Then you are really playing with dynamite!

Hodgon clearly advocates that flintlock shooters use a booster charge of black powder to ignite their main charge of 777 or Pyrodex which requires mixing the 2 powders.
I'm not sure what caused the problem in your gun.
Perhaps it was due to something besides using the Pyrodex like a loading error?

Flintlock: To insure proper ignition in flintlock systems, 5 grains of FFFFG priming powder should be placed into the bore prior to loading the main charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex. Consult the loading data in this brochure to determine the proper charge for the caliber firearm used and the chosen projectile. The main powder charge should be reduced by 5 grains to compensate for the addition of the priming powder. While holding the firearm vertically, slowly pour the measured charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex into the barrel. Seat the projectile firmly against the powder. Make certain that there is no airspace between the powder and the projectile. *See WARNING below.

http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html