Real life experiences with DAO, DA/SA and SA

[stogiegila]

I am having a hard time settling on a platform for my daily carry. I see pros and cons with each platform and have read arguments for each. The platforms being DAO (Glock), DA/SA (Sig) and SA (1911). I've carried each of these and like all of them. But I can also think of disadvantages for each.

My biggest concern stems from my readings in regards to the adrenaline rush and loss of fine motor skills when you actually need to draw your weapon. How does this stress truly impact your abilities. Its one thing to shoot at the range, but what about real life.

I'd like to get some input from those unfortunate individuals that actually needed to draw their weapon in a life threatening situation.

Is what I'm reading overstated? Based on the weapon you had, do you think you would of had a problem switching off a safety? Did the transition from DA to SA throw you off? How accurate was your first DA shot?

It seems like the more I read about it, the more conflicting opinions I get.

Thanks

 

[IlikeSA]

I started shooting SA (a 1911) so transitioning to DAO (in a Smith and Wesson 4507, or 45-something) was difficult for me. I actually really hated that pistol, but it was what I was issued by the police department, and at least it was .45. I practiced a lot with it and got to be, well, fairly good at it. I was never as good with it as my 1911, nor did I 100% trust it, but I got good enough. It would feed the issue ammo, but had trouble feeding other ammo. My 1911 on the other hand, ate and continues to eat whatever I have put in it.

Having given up policing, I reverted back to the 1911. I carry a GP100 as my woods gun, and can still shoot DA decently, but prefer SA. I think you may too, but you won't know until you try each of them out.

As far as fine motor skills, practice will alleviate that tension in the heat of the moment. You will instinctively revert back to your practice, and it will just happen. Of course, if you don't practice enough, you won't revert back...you will freeze. Go to the store, tell them you are looking for pistols and revolvers for carry (I assume). Then pick them up and feel them in your hand. I recommend trying examples of each out for a few rounds, then finding the one you like. Buy it, then make sure it is reliable with the loads you want to put through it.

Buy one pistol or revolver, and practice until shooting it instinctively is something you can do in your sleep. Practice reloads, one handed reloads, drawing from concealment, drawing from awkward positions. Master clearing stoppages if it is a pistol. Master instinctive shots, long range shots, shots from awkward positions. In other words, master that weapon and all the scenarios you can. I can almost guarantee you it will be the weapon to which you attach yourself. It may be DA, DA/SA, or SA. Either way, it will be your go-to gun forever, because of the time you invested in mastering it.

 

[Deanimator]

A Glock isn't DAO. It's a pre-tensioned striker fired gun. When the slide is cycled, it partially retracts the striker. When you pull the trigger, you retract the striker the rest of the way and release it. If you get a failure to fire, you must retract the slide to pre-cock the striker again before you can pull the trigger. There's no second strike capability.

A Beretta 96D is an example of a DAO gun. Every pull of the trigger is a long, heavy DA stroke which cocks and releases the hammer, whether the pistol fires or not.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

DA/SA is the most difficult to shoot, and is very dependent, I've found, on hand/gun fit. Many of these pistols also come with very large grips, so between that and the long trigger reach, I've struggled with them. The best I've found so far are the CZ decocker compacts and the S&W 3913. I've never warmed up to the SIGs as I practically have to hold them sideways in my hand to get a good purchase on that long trigger. The good news is that if you master this system and then switch to a DAO or SA, you will find them that much easier to shoot.

DAO is also very dependent upon the length and weight of the stroke. Short-stroke actions like the Glock and S&W M&P, I do well with, followed by the long stroke but very light pull of the Kahr. Those with long, heavy, revolver-like pulls, I 've never shot very well (nor revolvers, for that matter).

SAO probably has the best combination of speed into action and accuracy but takes a little more vigilance. You must train with it so actuation of the thumb safety becomes automatic or subconscious. Once the safety is off, the light trigger is very easy to trip inadvertently under stress, causing a miss or even an unintentional shooting. Also, neither of the SAO pistols I had (1911s, one a Colt, the other a SIG) were reliable.

At this time I find a "short stroke" DAO action to be the most all around useful.

 

[230therapy]

OP's question: the estimated loss of manual dexterity in a fight is approximately 33%.

What 33% of suck?

ZERO! So make sure to become proficient with fighting techniques. Standing there at the range shooting targets is not preparing you for anything other than shooting targets. You need to be able to hammer two to six rounds into a 4" circle at 21-45 feet every time. You should also be able to shoot the area of the occular window at 15 feet on demand. Both skills should be accomplished two handed, one handed, and with the support hand alone. You need to be able to do this while moving. You should also be skilled in double taps, zippers and so on. Malfunction clearing is also an important skill, as well as rapid reloads.

***

DA/SA isn't difficult to shoot; you just have to know the trick of it.

The problem with any gun with an external safety that must be manipulated is that it's very easy to muff the deactivation under stress. Even in the light stress of force on force, folks with lots of experience mess up a few draws.

Either DA/SA, DAO or equivalent without external safety is the way to go. Our ancestors knew what they were doing when they invented double action revolvers. Even Ed McGivern speaks about it in Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting. He chose the revolver over the 1911 because the revolver was faster.

This does not mean you shouldn't do with a single action gun or some DA or SA variant with a thumb safety. Just know what you are getting into and train accordingly.

What do you have now? My recommendation is just get two of the same gun and use those for defense. Keep your other guns and use them on the range! You may decide after a year that whatever you chose is not working out.

 

[1SOW]

From what I've experienced and read, it's typical to prefer and perform better with the gun & type action you shoot regularly/most.

If you've had your personal vehicle for any length of time, I'm sure you can start, turn on the lights, and put into reverse and step on the gas with very little conscious thought--even in an emergency.

Decide on what type of shooting you want to do MOST and pick the action that you prefer for that type shooting (range, action shooting, target/accuracy, SD or whatever. then shoot it A LOT using good basics when you start--- stance, grip, etc etc.

After you are thoroughly familiar with your gun, your confidence will grow along with your familiarity with the gun. The muscle memory and 'good' habits will lead to faster more accurate shooting.

Personally, I believe that if you have several guns/actions you should shoot each of them often if you want to be able to depend on more than one go-to gun without having to consciously think safety-no safety, hammer -no hammer, etc..

IMHO the bottom line is whatever you shoot a lot will will be the best gun to have handy in a tense situation regardless of action, caliber and size. I also believe you need to keep shooting regularly to maintain that confidence and skill.

So pick the gun you'll shoot and not just store in a drawer.

 

[stogiegila]

Thanks for the input everyone. To be more specific, I have a Glock (not exactly a DAO, but close enough for me), SIG (DA/SA) and a Colt Commander (SA). All of which I have carried at one point or another of the years.

My concerns are that while I am capable with them all on the range, I'm not sure how they would each be to deal with in a crisis. I shoot the Colt best, but will the safety become an issue. I like the DA/SA concept, but don't really shoot the DA that well (when aiming at a target) vs a combat accurate shot. The Glock is easiest to deal with, but fits my hand the worst of the bunch.

So they each have a trade off and I'm trying to determine in a crisis, which negative would be less of an issue.

As much as I love my Colt, I've started to worry about being able to deal with the thumb safety and also the grip safety.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I think all the supposed disadvantages of all the different platforms can be negated by either

Personal Preference
Training

Go with what you prefer and dont worry so much about us armchair quarterbacks and our silly opinions.

To answer your question though, the other night I was startled in the middle of the night by a sound on my deck which is right out the window of my bedroom. Without really comprehending what I was doing I had my Hi Power in my hand looking out the window onto the deck. Since I keep the deck light on all night every night I saw the fat fuzzball kitty sitting on the rail and the overturned chair it had used as a stepladder as the culprit of the noise.

I thought about the gun in my hand and calmed down enough and looked down to see my trigger finger indexed on the slide stop rod that protrudes through the frame on the Hi Power and the safety off. I have used single action automatics 10 times for every 1 time I have used any other type of auto.

I know what I am comfortable with.

I would suggest you go with what you are comfortable with as well.

 

[Logan5]

I used to have strong opinions on this subject, for years and years, while I was spending a lot of money on handguns and almost none on ammo. I'm not saying I suddenly got smart, just that my current position is: Pick one, carry it all the time, compete with it, practice with it, run more than one case of ammo through it, and you'll have a pretty good idea how it works for you. If it's giving you grief, switch and repeat. I spent years having opinions about guns I owned but hardly shot, and it was folly. Shoot, shoot shoot! Then decide.

 

[9mmepiphany]

through 28+ years in LE i have carried all types of platforms. i started with a revolver which we only shot in the DA mode (believe me a Glock isn't a DA) and progress through a SAO (Colt Combat Commander and H&K P-7) before settling on on a Sig as a duty gun (220, 226 and 229 depending on what struck my fancy) for off-duty i have carried all lengths of 1911, the P-7, Glock 19 and the Sig 220/228...i think the Sig DAK system is a great starter defensive pistol

since you already have all 3 guns, i would recommend you get into IDPA or USPSA shooting competition and see which works the best for you when under time pressure. this will also test your gun handling skills on each platform.

it you'd prefer to do it yourself, i'd recommend getting a shot timer and shoot some standard drills to see which you shoot the best with. i'd recommend the the El Presidente drill and the FAST drill...see where you fumble and which you are most proficient with

 

[duns]

Like everyone else so far, I have not been in a gunfight so can't speak from experience. I would be most comfortable with my DAO revolver or my DA/SA autoloaders because I just have to pull the trigger. I would be least comfortable with my 1911 because at the range I forget more often than not to sweep off the safety. I imagine that if the 1911 were my only handgun, sweeping off the safety would become second nature.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

FWIW, you can have Sigs (2005ish forward. Not sure about older models) converted to SAO, DAO, and DAK (a type of double action only that is like a good revolver DA). I only point it out as a potential option if you want to stick with your Sig as opposed to the other two fine pistols you own. Sig charges $200 for the conversion.

 

[gearhead]

I personally prefer the DA/SA architecture. I can carry decocked and unlocked, I can get off a quick first shot and if I pull it due to stress the rest of the magazine if necessary are fired SA. When I practice at the range I always run through a full mag using the decocker after every round just to practice my DA trigger control. I think one reason some people don't shoot a DA/SA well is that the amount of practice rounds fired in DA is limited unless you decock after every round.

 

[CPshooter]

Do yourself a huge favor and research the H&K LEM trigger. It's the best of all worlds IMHO. After I tried it, I knew it was the perfect trigger system for concealed carry. It's basically a DA pull (hammer down just like a DAO revolver), but with a short, fast SA-like reset. People compare it to Sig's DAK trigger, but it's not really the same and feels totally different. The initial pull is long and smooth just like Kahr's DA trigger, but it stacks at the very end like a Glock or XD does before it breaks cleanly. Then you can just let off the trigger a little bit until it resets and squeeze off another round without having to go all the way forward then back again like you would with a DAO revolver.

It is a very natural system that lends itself perfectly to a high-stress SD situation. I've gone through the same thing you are going through and settled on a P2000sk 9mm equipped with the LEM trigger. I can't imagine carrying anything else.

Here's a pic of mine: