This post isn't meant to challenge the importance of "The Rules" when it comes to range work, hunting, etc.... However, in a real world situation, there isn't necessarily a safe muzzle direction, or non-threats may cross your line of fire. I was talking to a friend who is on a local PD's SRT and he did mention that a lot of times other officers legs will get swept during room clearing and other close quarter scenarios. Thoughts? It would be nice if we could use this thread to discuss the differences in weapons handling and techniques that apply to more real world situations.
Real world gun safety
- Thread starter robMaine
- Start date
- Status
Thoughts? It's a training issue. Rent the movie Act of Valor and watch it with the commentary. During the first battle scene they discuss how the SEALs expertly move without ever sweeping each other with their muzzles. I also have talked with ex-military folk I work with (who were not SEALs by any stretch) who talk about training for drills and being careful never to sweep anyone and not to get swept by anyone.
Nushif
Member
When playing with the Army all rules were taught, of course.
But the ones that would get you dropped, spoken to, ejected from ranges or courses tended to be trigger discipline and the external safety being in its appropriate position.
You're right in saying that sometimes during training or while running across a field or whatnot someone will likely get muzled. But the LAYERED rules prevent people from dying.
But the ones that would get you dropped, spoken to, ejected from ranges or courses tended to be trigger discipline and the external safety being in its appropriate position.
You're right in saying that sometimes during training or while running across a field or whatnot someone will likely get muzled. But the LAYERED rules prevent people from dying.
Nushif, layering is exactly what I was thinking. What bugs me is the attitude talked about in the Act of Valor post. The people who say they never sweep anyone suing a combat situation, when they definitly do. I was curious about some opinions of those who have experienced it, as I don't have any experience in these areas and it was interesting to me.
Nushif
Member
I mean we did make a conscious effort to not muzzle each other, no doubt about that.
But three things really do seem to stand out.
We/I/Someone like me verified the guns were empty when they should be.
Booger Hooker off the Bang switch.
Safety on when not engaging a target.
But three things really do seem to stand out.
We/I/Someone like me verified the guns were empty when they should be.
Booger Hooker off the Bang switch.
Safety on when not engaging a target.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I guess I'm not sure what the question is.
Every possible attempt is made NOT to cover anyone or anything with a muzzle that shouldn't be. Even potential hostiles, (or arrestees in the case of law-enforcement) are not usually directly covered until the need to shoot is evident (though the gun is presented and directed in a manner to make an aimed shot only a fraction of a second away).
But of course things happen we cannot avoid. We don't just say, "well it's going to happen so don't worry about it," but layered safety keeps those unfortunate happenstances from turning into negligent/accidental lethalities.
Every possible attempt is made NOT to cover anyone or anything with a muzzle that shouldn't be. Even potential hostiles, (or arrestees in the case of law-enforcement) are not usually directly covered until the need to shoot is evident (though the gun is presented and directed in a manner to make an aimed shot only a fraction of a second away).
But of course things happen we cannot avoid. We don't just say, "well it's going to happen so don't worry about it," but layered safety keeps those unfortunate happenstances from turning into negligent/accidental lethalities.
beatledog7
Member
We all work hard at it, but in the real world it is impossible to never sweep anyone or get swept by anyone. That's why the other rules exist in concert with the muzzling rule.
I guess this wasn't so much a question as a discussion point. Obviously muzzle direction is paramount and every effort to not muzzle someone should be made, but I have noticed some people saying there is never an exception NEVER, so it was refreshing for my buddy to have a more honest answer and I was curious about your thoughts.
Oh no, not at all. Obviously train with safety in mind, I was more talking heat I the moment, and how you work towards making it as safe as possible.
MedWheeler
Member
Yes, layering is what it's pretty much about. We all know that following only on rule would work and that one rule would be "Don't pull the trigger when doing so would be bad."
But, because we humans cannot always be trusted to always fall within one narrow parameter of behavior, and because so much is on the line, the "extra" safeguards are understandably in place.
The "booger hook/bang switch" cliche is so beat.. why, since we use better verbiage with the other three rules, can't we just say "finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard"?
But, because we humans cannot always be trusted to always fall within one narrow parameter of behavior, and because so much is on the line, the "extra" safeguards are understandably in place.
The "booger hook/bang switch" cliche is so beat.. why, since we use better verbiage with the other three rules, can't we just say "finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard"?
mljdeckard
Member
No. Bull. Never.
I was in a language course with a SEAL team leader. I told him I had seen some alleged footage of SEALs doing a dynamic entry weaving back and forth in front of each other, crossing in front of their muzzles. I asked him if there was some kind of modified operational standard where they overlooked the safety rules because they are all so well-trained and in-sync with each other that they have a 'higher understanding' of when it is and is not ok to muzzle sweep. He said he had one such team member who thought he did, and dropped him from the team. He reiterated that no one is above the four rules, not under any circumstances. It doesn't matter how dangerous the mission is, or how fast you have to move, none of it matters of you are blowing each others' toes off in the process. He also agreed with me that the armed forces in general do a terrible job of ingraining the four rules, because they worry so much about keeping all weapons clear, they don't care if people develop poor muzzle discipline. Then they go to a war zone and start blowing toes off because they are used to thinking that their guns aren't loaded.
I was in a language course with a SEAL team leader. I told him I had seen some alleged footage of SEALs doing a dynamic entry weaving back and forth in front of each other, crossing in front of their muzzles. I asked him if there was some kind of modified operational standard where they overlooked the safety rules because they are all so well-trained and in-sync with each other that they have a 'higher understanding' of when it is and is not ok to muzzle sweep. He said he had one such team member who thought he did, and dropped him from the team. He reiterated that no one is above the four rules, not under any circumstances. It doesn't matter how dangerous the mission is, or how fast you have to move, none of it matters of you are blowing each others' toes off in the process. He also agreed with me that the armed forces in general do a terrible job of ingraining the four rules, because they worry so much about keeping all weapons clear, they don't care if people develop poor muzzle discipline. Then they go to a war zone and start blowing toes off because they are used to thinking that their guns aren't loaded.
Nushif
Member
Because that doesn't sound nearly as good when being yelled across a lot. The reason people repeat it is because that's how they heard it.
That is surprising. There are many situations where there is no "safe" direction. Just "safest". This is what I was talking about as saying never when I am pretty sure everyone of those guys has muzzled a friendly at some point. Not in training, not for fun, but in combat. It is like people that say they never ever sweep themselves and then I see them drawing from appendix carry.
In regards to CQB, there are techniques that are employed that do a great job at ALMOST preventing sweeping your team mate all together when used properly.
Now I agree that these techniques should be used along with layering but from experience the more layering you have the harder it is to defend your own life or your teammates life in the event of something actually happening while clearing a room or clearing your sector (its not impossible with layering however it will take a split second longer and that split second could mean your life)
Now I agree that these techniques should be used along with layering but from experience the more layering you have the harder it is to defend your own life or your teammates life in the event of something actually happening while clearing a room or clearing your sector (its not impossible with layering however it will take a split second longer and that split second could mean your life)
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
How many of us here are actually trained in and practicing doing SRT/CQB/SWAT etc. type operations in defending ourselves and our homes?
Anyone here ever actually train in something more practical for plain ordinary armed citizens, like team tactics with a spouse? If so, what did the instructor(s) there say about muzzle control? http://www.gunsite.com/main/course-offerings/pistol/team-tactics-4-two/ for example...
Let's stay in our lane here, folks (gee, where have I heard that before) and not get amped up over something that is, for almost all of us, not something that is ever going to apply to us. Far as I heard in years gone by, I've never known anyone involved in the military training I'm familiar with to excuse flagging your own folks, but it's been a good while since I was around anyone doing that stuff and maybe it's different now. Lots of other stuff sure is...
Anyone here ever actually train in something more practical for plain ordinary armed citizens, like team tactics with a spouse? If so, what did the instructor(s) there say about muzzle control? http://www.gunsite.com/main/course-offerings/pistol/team-tactics-4-two/ for example...
Let's stay in our lane here, folks (gee, where have I heard that before) and not get amped up over something that is, for almost all of us, not something that is ever going to apply to us. Far as I heard in years gone by, I've never known anyone involved in the military training I'm familiar with to excuse flagging your own folks, but it's been a good while since I was around anyone doing that stuff and maybe it's different now. Lots of other stuff sure is...
Apachedriver
Member
Why the booger hook terminology? Because everything in the military has to be understandable and memorable to the lowest common denominator on the "team". This type terminology disappears the higher up you go on the evolutionary scale of professional warriors.
And contrary to what the many Americans believe, we all wear the same uniform but we are not all on the same level of intelligence or skills when it comes to combat skills or experience.
And contrary to what the many Americans believe, we all wear the same uniform but we are not all on the same level of intelligence or skills when it comes to combat skills or experience.
Apachedriver
Member
Are you asking or are you telling?
You seem to have the answers for someone that by their own admission doesn't have any combat experience.
Ehtereon11B
internet infantryman
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2012
- Messages
- 983
Having done CQB and room clearing operations with the military for several years, muzzle sweeping does happen. Training dictates that you do your best, for lack of a better term, to not sweep your teammate during CQB. But it does happen. CQB is the only time I have seen muzzle sweep be "semi-forgivable." No one is going to stop a breach in combat because their team member was muzzle swept. But in training its 50/50. Might catch frack for it, might not. All depends on who is running the training.
beatledog7
Member
Awareness and Diligence.
The keys are to always be guarding against sweeping someone and when you have no choice to know exactly when you did it and why it was unavoidable.
The keys are to always be guarding against sweeping someone and when you have no choice to know exactly when you did it and why it was unavoidable.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
One of my goals is to handle any firearm exactly the same in an "administrative" atmosphere as in a "real world" environment. IMHO, that's how you develop ingrained reflexes against or about sweeping, trigger discipline, chamber condition and target background.
On another board that's chock full of professionals (LE & .mil), there was substantial agreement than the 4 rules actually are the "Big Boy (Gal) Rules" that some folks fling about.
Averageman
Member
When you have been trained and drilled and worked together as a team and you still can't play by the rules one of two things are wrong.
1) You are not quite smart enough for the job.
or
2) You do not respect the people you work with enough to consider their safety as much as you do your own.
In the case of someone I shoot with, I just wont shoot with them again. In the case of Military service, I might have given a guy one warning before making an example of his poor behaivor.
1) You are not quite smart enough for the job.
or
2) You do not respect the people you work with enough to consider their safety as much as you do your own.
In the case of someone I shoot with, I just wont shoot with them again. In the case of Military service, I might have given a guy one warning before making an example of his poor behaivor.
1911 guy
Member
Speaking from experience, if over a decade ago still counts, you train till it's instinctive to not flag someone. Manual safeties are used, trigger discipline is not the eleventh commandment, it is the ONLY commandment. Muzzle control is paramount and if you're high enough up the food chain, your gun IS always loaded.
As far as "no safe direction", that's a load of... There's always a deck, there's always an overhead, there's always a space not occupied by you and yours. Live by the first paragraph and you weapon will find that space of its own accord until you acquire a target.
In short, I've never seen any competent organization find it remotely acceptable to flag your own with a weapon.
As far as "no safe direction", that's a load of... There's always a deck, there's always an overhead, there's always a space not occupied by you and yours. Live by the first paragraph and you weapon will find that space of its own accord until you acquire a target.
In short, I've never seen any competent organization find it remotely acceptable to flag your own with a weapon.
Shadow 7D
Member
Long time ago and a different group of guys pulling coverage (cause well, it was good training for me and my guys too, even if it was just watching the swoopty guys work)
I have seen instructors stop a 'dynamic' situation to cover a specific mistake, and also let ones go and point it out on the after action replay (it was wired training facility)
And them the team practiced to avoid that mistake, and they kept at it till they had a number of clean runs trying to improve every run. A large part is having an idea of where the other guys in your team are and knowing your sector. 'Safety hazards' like shooting your guys in the back are VERY frowned upon.
I have seen instructors stop a 'dynamic' situation to cover a specific mistake, and also let ones go and point it out on the after action replay (it was wired training facility)
And them the team practiced to avoid that mistake, and they kept at it till they had a number of clean runs trying to improve every run. A large part is having an idea of where the other guys in your team are and knowing your sector. 'Safety hazards' like shooting your guys in the back are VERY frowned upon.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
