Realities of Self Defense and the Law

[Frank Ettin]

...would a knife be better? If I don't have time to draw and fire, I could draw my knife from my holster and cut him, couldn't I? Try to move backward, making it clear that I'd cut him again if he comes at me?

How physically fit, strong and up to hand-to-hand combat are you? Whatever tools you have available -- gun, knife, stick, etc. -- it's a matter of knowing when you may use them and having the knowledge and abilities to use them effectively if necessary. For those of us well past our first youth and not nearly as spry as we once were, a gun, with training and practice, is probably the best choice.

I carry a knife. I figure to use it mostly for opening packages or slicing an apple for my lunch.

 

[Kylaen]

I see your guys' point. I'm not that good with a knife, and it'd be a very fast close-quarters matter, anyway. You know, maybe if I can train really hard, try to get a better sense o balance, maybe I could take some kind of martial arts, or boxing or something. From that guy talking about the force a punch can generate, maybe it'd be better? I mean, I don't want to kill people. But even if I could get by with a self defense plea to a court case, I think it'd be pretty suspicious if someone applied for law enforcement with a self-defense kill on their record, yeah?

 

[Kylaen]

Frank, I've posted elsewhere that I've gotten into a few assaults, I've had some surgeries, and I'm disabled. Carrying a gun is something I've worried about for three years, because I can't walk without a walker, and I can't really fight on my own, my balance sucks. If I was in my scooter, it'd be easier to defend myself as balance is no longer an issue, but it wouldn't be that much easier.

 

[Trent]

I'd rather fight a knife than a firearm. Been in martial arts for 27 years - and I know enough to know that if you are in a knife fight (with or without a knife on YOUR side) you are GOING to get cut.

This being said, CUTS are not immediately lethal, or particularly harming; get enough of them and you MIGHT succumb to blood loos, but your'e talking about a LOT of blood loss required and a LOT of time to get there, while continuing to fight an armed adversary. The Romans knew this, and trained their soldiers to stab (see the bayonet thread for more background info).

Knives do NOT make good defensive weapons, but they are "better than nothing" in a pinch. When we train on fighting knives, we just look at it as an extension of the attacker. It gives the person a bit more reach - same blocks, same counters apply.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that unless you've trained extensively in hand to hand combat, a knife will not do you a whole lot of good against someone who is A) bigger, B) meaner, C) faster, D) sneakier, or E) more skilled than you. Any ONE of those factors in a hand to hand engagement and you are in serious trouble. Multiple of those, and you're in even more serious trouble!

You seem to be implying that proper use of force for someone who attacks you with a knife or baseball bat is "same level of force".

Knives and baseball bats and tire irons and golf clubs and phone cords (rare weapon indeed nowadays) and guitar strings and logs and rocks and vehicles are ALL equally lethal objects when turned towards murder.

No. You can't carry all. There is only ONE level of force - lethal force - and you need the method which is fastest to bring to bear, and most universally effective, as you are disabled.

Carry a firearm, learn how to use it, practice with it, know when and when not to use it, and you are good.

 

[Kylaen]

Trent - MD laws won't allow me to carry a firearm for my protection. I n my apartment, probably, but not out on the streets. I have to be able to prove someone has threatened my life, that's what I was told.

 

[Trent]

Also; something else worth mentioning.

I was chastised once, by my karate instructor, when I made mention of being more well trained in combat than any bad guy I would likely ever come across. (Cocky, but hey, I was young). I viewed bad guys are undisciplined, and lack the "staying power" to study an art through to a serious level of proficiency.

His rebuke was simple -

"Did you take a good / evil test when you walked in the door? Do you think only good people are motivated to learn how to fight? Is that a trait which you think is particularly biased only towards good people? What vested interest do good people have in learning to fight? Wouldn't it stand to reason bad people might even be MORE interested in fighting well, than you are?"

I was taken aback - but he was absolutely right.

You think people on THIS message board like guns? That only good people have the motivation or patience to go train regularly with a firearm?

Stop and think for a minute how much some CRIMINALS out there might like guns. MAYBE the bad guy you might some day face has gone through the exact same training - maybe more - than you ever have. Maybe they are ex military? Ex Law enforcement? It's been known to happen before. Highly trained individuals tend to leave a mark.

You train to improve, and to assume that the adversary does not, is pompous and conceited.

So no, I don't think anyone can practice too much on the HOW.



Just my .02.

 

[Trent]

Kylaen - we've got worse laws in Illinois. You have a "may issue" state, we have a 100% prohibition on carrying firearms here. At least you're allowed to present a case. We cannot. Period.

Find the maximum you are allowed to do IN YOUR STATE and do it.

In Illinois, that means:

At home I can keep firearms loaded for self defense.
At work I can keep firearms loaded for self defense (I own the company)
On the road I can keep a firearm unloaded in the center console with a magazine ready to go.

Unless I'm in one of those three situations, I'm unarmed.

Work with what you're given.

 

[hso]

that's what I was told.

You've already accepted that much of what you thought was fact was myth. This is just another example. It is best if you actually talk to the DA and/or MD carry organization members.

 

[Kylaen]

I will, then. Thank you, hso.

 

[CAVHOOAH]

I just wanted to say a huge thanks goes to the men/women here that go the extra mile to discuss these subjects calmly, logically and patiently. Setting at my desk after a long days honest living, I noticed this thread. The first post had me shaking my head, and I knew the truth was just around the corner. Thats the difference with this forum, although moderated, most of the "flamboyant nuts" are quickly snapped in line or discarded.

This leaves, for lack of better words, a better atmosphere for those likeminded.

I am a long time reader...low poster. I frequent MANY firearms forums and am only registered here.... theres a reason. When I want entertainment (Kinda like the 80's era wrestling entertainment) I read other forums. When I want informed and intillectual conversation and reading..... I come here.




Watching the way the correct information and logic being delivered to this young man was nothing short of stellar and quite frankly made me proud. Basically I wanted to state the general aura of this forum to the O.P. If only others would search for the truth as this young man has.....we in America would be much better off.


And to the O.P. !


Im duly impressed with your reception to the information provided ! At the start, there was alot of emotion and uncertainty in your statements ( put lightly). It blew my mind for someone I almost wrote off as a "questionable poster" to actually read with logic and study for understanding and come back in a positive way.



I am nowhere near as elequent and information savy as others helping you here here... So Ill limit this to just me SALUTING those in this thread.

GOOD JOB MEN, Carry on.


Your buddy, CAV

 

[Trent]

No one is worth dismissing offhand.

Everyone has a reason for the way they feel, and if you respect those feelings, often you can find ... the truth.

 

[Kylaen]

Thank you, Cav. I definitely wanted to learn, and it was kind of a shock at first to be hit with so much disaggreement all at once. But once everything calmed down, when I asked the community to provide me with proper information in a positive way, they stepped up. I never wanted confrontation. I wanted to be embraced, and if my information was incorrect, I wanted to be guided, not met with hostility. So I'd like to thank the rest of you guys, too. I'm glad that the guys here decided to take "the high road" with me, instead of blowing me off as some liberal idiot or something. Ballistic science is hard to understand, but I'm committed enough to my self-defense to learn the right information. Thanks, guys.

 

[TrickyDick]

If Your life ,or another's is on the line; you do what you must to survive. no what if's or buts.

 

[Spats McGee]

. . . . I definitely wanted to learn, and it was kind of a shock at first to be hit with so much disaggreement all at once. . . . .

Yeah, I didn't see your other threads, but you took a bit of a beating in page 1 of this thread.

 

[scottgun]

I am also glad to see this thread level out to some good advice rather than misunderstandings and insults. One of the biggest challenges in learning about guns and self defense is to ignore everything that is seen on TV and the movies. Not that is the influence for Kylaen, but most newbies into guns use that as a refence, and its almost always the wrong thing to do. An example, when talking to a friend about CCW, he asks, so if you're up against a road rager, can't you just hold up your gun to show him you're armed. Nope, that would be illegal. So there's a lot to learn and unlearn. The books mentioned are a great resource.

My advice for Kylaen is to look at all alternatives. Since its difficult to get a CCW permit in you state, maybe look at carrying pepper spray. Its a less than lethal alternative and the threshold for use is much less than using deadly force. If someone threatened you with physical force, you would be justified using it. The stream style spray is much better than the fog style, as it won't blow back on you.

It might sound corny, but even carrying an air horn could be a self defense tool. I keep one in my kitchen cabinet in case a bears wanders through the back yard. And yes I have had bears in the back yard, and I'm not going to shoot it. I know when I tested it out, I would not want to be around someone sounding that thing. Besides piecing someones ear drum, it will get a lot of attention. Also always have a cell phone handy.

Beyond what ever tool you decide to use, become familiar with the self defense mindset. When I'm walking down a sparsely populated city street and I see an unsavory character walking towards me, I'll cross to the other side of the street for avoidance, if they start to cross the street too, then I'll go back to the original side. If they go back too, then I have a reason to be concerned and maybe put my hand on my pepper spray in my pocket. Maybe its just someone walking down the street, but I'm aware and prepared.

Good luck and stay safe.

 

[bogon48]

The folk on this list have really done a great job responding to Kylaen. I wish her well and hope that she never finds herself in a situation where she needs to use lethal force. But heck, if you're worried about things that can kill you, driving to the grocery store is a very real danger and should require as much vigilance as any other form of self defense.

For those gun owners in VA or moving to VA, I'd like to recommend the Virginia Gun Owner's Guide by Alan Korwin and Steve Maniscalco. It covers state laws (as of publication date - 2009) and relevant federal laws and covers most aspects of gun ownership. This book was put together with assistance from a variety of state and federal officials and lawyers. The appendix has a section with VA gun laws presented verbatim. I believe they have versions of the book for Arizona and Florida too. Of course, you need to keep up with changes in gun laws at all levels.

The book has section on Deadly Force and Self Defense that would probably be relevant in almost any state. They present some rules and scenarios that summarize hundreds of pages of Internet exchanges or online case law.

 

[Kylaen]

Thank you bogon, but for the record, I'm a guy.

 

[Spats McGee]

You've already been given a whole lot of information to digest, Kylaen. How's it going?

 

[bogon48]

Well, guess I had another senior moment. If this keeps up, I'll have to sell my firearms and motorcycle and spend my free time at the senior center, arguing about things I don't understand anymore.

Anyway, I made a really dumb error in referring to you as "she" Kylaen. I apologize. Your question raised some good discussion.

Bogon48

 

[Trent]

Kylean;

Saw this news story come across the feed today, and immediately thought of you.

http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=4527526

Citizen with concealed carry stops an assault on a police officer who called for help. Bad guy was shot 6 times before the attack was ended. He'd already been shot once by the cop, had the cop pinned under him and was continuing his attack.

 

[Kleanbore]

Trent, that is a good example of what can happen.